as far as armament goes, they  could penetrate mose German tanks frontal armor. (not sure on the KT and JT thouhg). However in armor they were lacking by far. I think the M-10 only had 2 inch armor in the front, not much.

So I would say they didn't match well against the German tanks. They could be knocked out too easily.

 

Of the three major types you listed, the 90mm armed M-36 was the most effective. It came as quite a suprise to the Germans when first encountered due to its similarity to the M-10 and their familiarity with that TD's capability. The M-10 and M-18 also performed well when employed properly, especially when using the tungsten core HVAP ammunition. Their open tops and thin armor made them vulnerable in city fighting and did not give them good protection in stand up slugging matches or against artillery fire. A variant of the M-18 which never entered production due to the war ending was an M-18 hull mated to an M-36 turret. When fitted with a muzzle brake, this fast moving chassis and heavy gun combo,  succesfully proved in testing  to give US forces what would have been quite a weapon under the concept.

There exists footage of a Pershing tank firing the same 90mm gun in the M36 straight through the gun shield of a KingTiger.  Three shots were fired and penetrated.  One killed the driver and I believe both of the remaining rounds entered the turret.  However, these were fired in city streets not open field ranges.  That said the 90mm could penetrate glacius armor on all german tanks at practical ranges.

It would only stand to reason that I would be corrected about a Pershing by a fellow named T26

I tend to agree with the apples to oranges comparison, or the F 16 to A 10. Its one of those things you have to look at in a context. Like which car would win the race. A corvette or an f 150 pickup? Well where is the race? On a smooth race track or off road with mud holes and rocks? I know its not exactly the same thing but its the same kind of thinking.

Hi Dave and Mortar: I'm with you guys, believe me!  There's as many "Which is better: Sherman or Tiger/Panther/etc." threads as there are Angelina Jolie/Bradd Pitt magazine covers!

I hope I didn't come off snippy, either Mortar.  I just wanted to caution the broad language about 90mm guns penetrative abilities.  Really in the battlefield crazy things did and do happen.  I read how an M8 Armored Car killed a Panther once.  I also recall in Belton Cooper's "Death Traps" how the lead Sherman in a column fired a WP shell at a Tiger II.  The Tiger IIs fans brought the smoke into the fighting compartment and the crew abandoned it quickly, thinking it was afire (the Sherman got killed by a second T2 however).  I've read Gerry Chester's accounts of his unit killing Tigers in Tunisia and Panthers in Italy.  He was in the North Irish Horse, and these actions were done by 6pdr armed Churchills.  His online memoir is great but offline but available through archive.org.  (Go to www.archive.org and enter http://www.nih.ww2site.com -- it's a great read!)

Gerry is still with us, contributing Churchill information on ML's Allied DG.  I'm building a model of his Churchill Mk Vwith customized decals of his actual tank as we speak.  A fine gentleman! 

BTW, great analogy about the F-16/A-10 and the Corvette/F150.  The line I use whenever one of the debates emerges is why not compare an Panzer IA to a JS-2?

Take care folks.  Roy

(LOL, you're right about my T26E4 name -- I did a three year build on a Super Pershing and know too much about it!)

 Good answers. Thank you all. I wish we had had more TD's than Shermans. The F-16 and A 10 thing is a very good point. I agree.
                                                                        Good day all.

                                                                                                -60

A very interesting anecdote: Belton Cooper in his "Death Traps" book talks about how he took a Panzerfaust and test fired it into the turret face of an undamaged, abandoned Tiger II (henschel turm).  The warhead hit a few inches to the side of the gunner's site opening.  There was a terriffic flash of sparks.  When he examined the point of impact, he said there was a succinct 1/2 inch diameter hole where the HEAT warhead hit.  On the inside of the turret, the exit hole was about 3/4 inches and things were brewed up pretty good inside.  I believe the turret face of the Tiger II, production turret was about 4" thick.

About 2 or 3 years ago, I had the chance to build a model of the M-18 Hellcat for a World War Two veteran who had commanded an M-18 in Europe.While asking him questions about his vehicle so I could get the details as correct as possible, he shared a few stories with me about his combat experiences. In one story he related to me how his Hellcat encountered what he called a German "Heavy tank". I asked him for details of the German tank and he said it had a "sloped front and a square turret", so I figure it was probably a Panther. In the head-on engagement at about 1500 yards, they put two shots into the German tanks' front slope, neither of which penetrated. He said he saw the rounds bounce off and up. The German tank returned fire, and missed. He then oredered his driver to bug-out as quickly as possible.He laughed, and said "He who turns and runs away, lives to fight another day." He said he knew that he couldn't kill it at the angle he was engaging from and there was no way his TD would survive a hit from the German gun. He didn't re-engage the target, because he said it had moved off. He commanded a Hellcat through the rest of the war, and though he killed some German tanks, he didn't recall any of them being "Heavies". Pretty interesting stuff. The day I presented the Hellcat model to him, his eyes welled up and he said, "Yeah, that's just how I remember it." You have to love living history!

Here's a story of a Tank Destroyer Batallion in Anzio.

http://www.lonesentry.com/brassingoff/index.html