The difficulty of trivia quizzes like this is there is no "expert" moderator who holds the answers. Tom even started this quiz stating the difficulties of such endeavours.

Note that I AM NOT saying that Matt90 and RemcoGrob are colluding! Only that Matt90's question was ambiguous.

The Wikipedia link on the He 280 RemcoGrob provided conflicts with another Wikipedia link I found on the Me 262 (which I found BTW in the He 280 link), both of which state they were the first jet fighter. The He 280 clearly shows that only two airframes actually flew, and only one under it's own power, and that the RLM had only ordered 20 pre-production aircraft with a promise of 300 more if the aircraft proved worthy. It did not, and the contract was cancelled for technical and political reasons. My argument is if the contract was cancelled before the pre-production airframes were built then that must mean the 9 airframes in existence (one of which crashed after be towed off the ground!) were pre-pre-production. Clearly making them research or experimental. At least in my mind!!

Whatever. Matt90 got the answer he was looking for, and we should move on. While I clearly like to argue, I am not interested in fighting about this!

Bgrigg wrote:

The difficulty of trivia quizzes like this is there is no "expert" moderator who holds the answers. Tom even started this quiz stating the difficulties of such endeavours. Note that I AM NOT saying that Matt90 and RemcoGrob are colluding! Only that Matt90's question was ambiguous. The Wikipedia link on the He 280 RemcoGrob provided conflicts with another Wikipedia link I found on the Me 262 (which I found BTW in the He 280 link), both of which state they were the first jet fighter. The He 280 clearly shows that only two airframes actually flew, and only one under it's own power, and that the RLM had only ordered 20 pre-production aircraft with a promise of 300 more if the aircraft proved worthy. It did not, and the contract was cancelled for technical and political reasons. My argument is if the contract was cancelled before the pre-production airframes were built then that must mean the 9 airframes in existence (one of which crashed after be towed off the ground!) were pre-pre-production. Clearly making them research or experimental. At least in my mind!! Whatever. Matt90 got the answer he was looking for, and we should move on. While I clearly like to argue, I am not interested in fighting about this!

I think the difference here is terminology.  The 'pre-pre-production' aircraft were called prototypes, so it could be accurately said that the He-280 never went beyond prototype stage.  However, it was aimed for production, and was not designed for research.  A research aircraft would be the Gloster Whittle, or the He-178 which were never designed with production in mind, but purely to find research the field, for later aircraft.

Actually, thanks for the links.  I thought the He-280 had entered limited production, but stand corrected!

Added thoughts;

The A-6 flew in Nam and they are still flying today. So did the A-4, and it is still in service in Brazill. The A-4 began flying in 53 or 54 (production) so it qualifies for the 50 years of service. The C-135 (Boing 707) varients are still flying so they should qualify for the 50 years of service depending on when they were picked up for military use. The U-2 has to be real close to 50 years. I think it started its service career in 1956, but this is a guess. Ike was president when the Gary Powers U-2 was shot down, right.  This is great stuff guys, keep it going.

The Secretary of Defense, Robert MacNanera, wanted aircraft to be usable by both the USAF and the Navy. The F-4 Phantom was a success of this program. An aircraft referred to as the TFX at that time was found to be too heavy for aircraft carier landings. However, the USAF bought it and it turned out to be a phanominal success, after a number of problems were worked out. What was it?

Hint: it was the first to have ground following radar, the first successful variable geometry (swing) wings aircraft, and the first to have an ejection capsule. There are a few other production "firsts" I cannot remember at the moment.

Bgrigg wrote:

He wasn't just considered one, he WAS an admirer of Hitler and the Nazi Regime. From Wikipedia: Lindbergh's Nazi sympathies. He never did admit he was wrong about the Nazis, even after witnessing the death camps first hand. He was also a vocal white supremist. He resigned his Army Air Force commission before Pearl Harbour, but tried to get it back and was blocked. Whether by Roosevelt directly or indirectly is lost to history (though I suspect it, Roosevelt was in fact a dirty political fighter). I personally believe Lindbergh would have been one of the best aces (he actually shot down an enemy plane while flying as a "civilian" observor) but I don't think he would have willingly fought in the European theatre. Shame, really, his accomplishments were almost eclipsed by his personal short-comings.

I wasn't aware of Lindbergh's white supremacy and Nazi leanings.  Everybody has flaws.  Churchill was an alcoholic and he was probably the best world leader of the war.  Lindbergh's flaws were serious (and potentially a serious problem), but he would have made a top fighter pilot.

Bill

Wow- where did all the aircraft go?

On another point- Churchill has been heavily criticized for the complete depletion of england's gold reserves (to pay for the intial part of "lend lease") -when the war had ended England's status as a world power had ended as well.. Please don't forget he was voted out of office in '44- and for at least a decade after the war England lived in a virtual state of economic depression- comparable to the economies of the "defeated" powers of germany and france.

Nothing's really ever simple, Keith

I know dreck about Japanese aircraft, a flaw I will attempt to correct!

Was it the Nakajima E4N2 seaplane?

wdolson2 wrote:

RemcoGrob wrote: So then I can ask a question: Name two types fighter planes that where used by the french airforce in 1940 and where made by a foreign (a non-french) manufacturer?  Please note the the types, at least, must have been delivered before the fall of France, so no p-38's or p-39's etc. (which where on order but never deliverd) The only fighter that comes to mind is the Curtiss Hawk (H-75).  The French did have Douglas Marylands (Model 167) and DB-7s (the ancestor of the A-20), but those are bombers. Bill

The H-75 is half of the correct anwser, but there was another foreign fighter.....

Oh, I just read this last night: the H81A export P-40.

Sorry Matt90, but as far as I can tell, the french P-40's weren't deliverd.

So you must continue your search.....

 

http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/AC/aircraft/Curtiss-P40/p40_info/p-40_info.htm

Bgrigg wrote:

He wasn't just considered one, he WAS an admirer of Hitler and the Nazi Regime. From Wikipedia: Lindbergh's Nazi sympathies. He never did admit he was wrong about the Nazis, even after witnessing the death camps first hand. He was also a vocal white supremist. He resigned his Army Air Force commission before Pearl Harbour, but tried to get it back and was blocked. Whether by Roosevelt directly or indirectly is lost to history (though I suspect it, Roosevelt was in fact a dirty political fighter). I personally believe Lindbergh would have been one of the best aces (he actually shot down an enemy plane while flying as a "civilian" observor) but I don't think he would have willingly fought in the European theatre. Shame, really, his accomplishments were almost eclipsed by his personal short-comings.

Actually Lindbergh's politics were a subject of controversy, but at that time, the politics were not as clearly "black-and-white" as they became after we got into the war.

The Wikipedia article "Lindbergh's Nazi sympathies" is merely that author's opinions.

Actually I believe that Lindbergh was fortunate to not be able to re-enter the USAAF since later on Joe Kennedy, John's brother in the USAAF, and a potential political threat to the Roosevelt dynasty, was "accidentally killed" when he was sent on an unusual and dangerous mission, where the B-24 he was flying was fully loaded with explosives as a "one-way mission", similar to the Luftwaffe's Mistel's, only he was to bale out before the giant flying bomb hit its' target. You see, the plane he was flying "mysteriously blew up", killing all aboard.

Lindberg was mainly criticized for his pre-war assessment of the Luftwaffe (as a formidable force to deal with), where he was personally allowed to inspect the German air force before the war in great detail since he led them to believe he "was on their side". You see, had he declared himself a foe or leveled criticism in any sense, they would not have allowed it.

On the other hand, in Roosevelt's cabinet were card-carrying Communists, and at that time the two party's were at each other's throats, no more so then in Europe, so that alone could get him "black-balled" by his administration. Maybe they were also sore since Communists were candidates for the camps along with Jews and people with disabilities.

Don't forget that before war broke out, Roosevelt himself hailed Hitler as a great leader and a political and economic genius.

Do not forget that the JU-88 was in fact designed by some Amerrican engineers on "loan "in Germany before the war broke out.

When the Hindenberg burned down in Lakehurst, New Jesey, the U.S. agents investigating the scene were literally ordered to "find no one at fault", so evidently the pieces of a time bomb discovered in the wreakage were "ignored". This was later revealed under the "Freedom of Information Act" in the '60s.

Since such were the politics of the time, and since Roosevelt was as guilty of "ignoring" the death camps as anyone else (they referred to them as "the Jewish problem" during the Malta conference), I wouldn't go too hard on either Lindbergh or Patton for seeing the Nazi party as a legitimate political party at the time. They were in fact going along with former political statements of the President. You see, had he publicly acknowledged them, he would have to had to admit responsibility for doing nothing about them. You see, that was eventually left to Truman and Eisenhour to deal with.

Tom T