Airfix's "St. Louis" kit question

Ships

Airfix's "St. Louis" kit question


EPinniger 06-07-2006, 6:43 AM
Another "identify the kit" problem here!
I recently saw an Airfix kit of the "St. Louis" sailing warship - it's one of their large Series 9 "classic ships" range, but I've never seen or heard of this particular kit before.
The kit is in a 1970s-issue box and the subject looks to me like a 17th or early 18th-century man-of-war, reminiscent of the Wasa or Royal Sovereign. Unsure of the scale of the kit (presumably somewhere in the region of 1/150) or of the ship's nation of origin.

Anyone know what this is? Is it a re-issued Heller kit, or just a re-boxing of another kit like the Wasa? (though, unlike Revell, I didn't think Airfix usually did this sort of thing) The only Heller ship I can find with a similar name is the "Royal Louis" which is a tiny 1/600 "Cadet range" kit.

Re: Airfix's "St. Louis" kit question


jtilley 06-07-2006, 12:39 PM

I haven't built or bought the kit, but if I remember correctly it's a good one - one of the last new sailing ships Airfix produced.  I think I recall looking at it in the box, and concluding that the "carved" ornamentation was on the same level of quality as that of the Airfix Wasa, which in my opinion is one of the best plastic sailing ship kits ever.  (It's let down by the standard Airfix "dummy barrel" approach to the lower deck guns, but one can't have everything.)  It's definitely not a reissue of a Heller kit.

The St. Louis (she was French, by the way) has been the subject of several HECEPOB (Hideously-Expensive-Continental-European-Plank-On-Bulkhead) wood kits, and at least one other plastic one - from Pyro.  The latter kit is currently being sold in a Lindberg box, with a silly label like "Sir Henry Morgan's Pirate Ship, or something similar.  The Airfix kit is definitely the one to get.


Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

Re: Airfix's "St. Louis" kit question


EPinniger 06-07-2006, 2:59 PM
Thanks for the info!
This seems to be one of those Airfix kits (the Endeavour and Prince are the other two in the Classic Ships range) which doesn't turn up very often. Possibly because (like the Prince) it isn't a well-known subject and most non-enthusiasts probably wouldn't have heard of it. This doesn't explain the Endeavour though - it's quite famous (at least here in the UK) but I've never seen the kit either on eBay or in a shop. Possibly the moulds have been damaged or lost?

Re: Airfix's "St. Louis" kit question


jwintjes 06-07-2006, 6:16 PM
 EPinniger wrote:
Thanks for the info!
This seems to be one of those Airfix kits (the Endeavour and Prince are the other two in the Classic Ships range) which doesn't turn up very often. Possibly because (like the Prince) it isn't a well-known subject and most non-enthusiasts probably wouldn't have heard of it. This doesn't explain the Endeavour though - it's quite famous (at least here in the UK) but I've never seen the kit either on eBay or in a shop. Possibly the moulds have been damaged or lost?


You might try continental ebay where the Prince and the Endeavour appear every now and then, the Prince being in the region of 20-40 Euros. Here on the continent, other Airfix ship kits are rarer than either Prince or Endeavour - it took me ages to find a Royal Sovereign, and I have yet to come across a St Louis.

It's a pity Airfix never re-released it; personally I think the Prince is one of Airfix' best kits (I will readily agree that the ornamental detail on the Vasa is better, but somehow I find the Prince more charming as a ship), certainly a well-researched one, as befitting to a ship of which we have such a beautiful historic model.

Who knows, perhaps the re-release of the Great Western is a sign of things to come...

Jorit

Re: Airfix's "St. Louis" kit question


jtilley 06-08-2006, 1:26 PM

As usual, I agree with Jorit on all counts.  I think it's especially interesting to ponder that Airfix version of the Prince alongside the old Board Room model of the ship.  We're accustomed to holding models of that sort in awe - for good reason.  It's worth noting, though, that the windows in the transom and quarter galleries of that model are represented by black-painted sheets of wood, with dots of gold paint where the window muntons would intersect.  The Airfix kit has three-dimensional representations of the muntons.  So which is the more accurate model?

I think I've got an Airfix Prince in my attic.  I confess that one reason I've never started it is that I've gotten into an odd mindset over the years:  a model of a ship-of-the-line from that period looks odd to me if the hull timbers below the wales aren't visible.  That's a silly attitude, of course, but I have to admit that in my case it's true.


Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

Re: Airfix's "St. Louis" kit question


michel.vrtg 06-08-2006, 4:06 PM

I could read comments about Saint Louis by German modelers, they were talking about 3 models : the 1/144 Airfix one ; the 1/200 Heller and the 1/160 Pyro/Lindberg/Revell (same model sold by the three manufacturers). 

All 3 models must be almost the same size : the Heller one is closer to 1/150 scale.  German modelers seem to appreciate it.

Here is the boxart of the Heller model :

Michel


Re: Airfix's "St. Louis" kit question


jamiemcginlay 06-08-2006, 6:18 PM

I wondered if anyone can help me, I have the Airfix 'Saint Louis' kit but don't have the instructions.  If anyone has them could they scan them and email them to me?  I havn't built it yet but it does look like a nice kit.

thanks,

Jim

Re: Airfix's "St. Louis" kit question


jtilley 06-08-2006, 9:00 PM

I'm afraid I can't help with the instructions; I've never bought the kit. 

Michel - I wonder if, at some point in the intricate, interlocking history of the two companies, the Airfix St. Louis appeared in a Heller box.  I don't recall an originally Heller St.Louis - but Heller has issued so many sailing ship kits that I can't pretend to be familiar with all, or even most, of them.


Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

Re: Airfix's "St. Louis" kit question


michel.vrtg 06-09-2006, 4:48 AM

According to J.C. Carbonel, in his book about Heller, there is a  Saint Louis model made by Heller in 1978, Ref 837 (it is not the Airfix model).  In his book about Airfix, Arthur Ward puts the Saint Louis in the list of new Airfix models for 1973.

Michel

 


Re: Airfix's "St. Louis" kit question


jtilley 06-09-2006, 12:56 PM
Michel - That seems to open the possibility that the Heller one is indeed a reboxing of the Airfix one, which would have been five years old at the time.  I remember a period when lots of Airfix and Revell ships were turning up in Heller boxes; I think it may indeed have been in the late seventies.  I should emphasize again, though, that I really don't know about these St. Louis kits.  Heller may well have issued one of its own - but if I remember correctly (as I frequently don't these days), the two firms were indeed owned by the same people in 1978.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

Re: Airfix's "St. Louis" kit question


chris hall 06-09-2006, 2:06 PM

Heller and Airfix only came under joint ownership from 1986, when Airfix was taken over by Humbrol, who already owned Heller. Before that date, there were no instances of Heller re-boxing Airfix kits, so it seems certain that the Heller St. Louis was  a Heller original product. Richard Humm's Airfix Kit List, widely recognised as the definitive source on the history of all individual Airfix kits and their various re-boxings, makes no reference to the Airfix St.Louis being re-issued by anyone else.

Cheers,

Chris.


Cute and cuddly, boys, cute and cuddly!

Re: Airfix's "St. Louis" kit question


michel.vrtg 06-09-2006, 3:12 PM
 chris hall wrote:

Heller and Airfix only came under joint ownership from 1986, when Airfix was taken over by Humbrol, who already owned Heller. Before that date, there were no instances of Heller re-boxing Airfix kits, so it seems certain that the Heller St. Louis was  a Heller original product. Richard Humm's Airfix Kit List, widely recognised as the definitive source on the history of all individual Airfix kits and their various re-boxings, makes no reference to the Airfix St.Louis being re-issued by anyone else.

Cheers,

Chris.

 

Same with JC Carbonel's list of Heller kits, in his book, Wasa is listed as an Airfix reboxed kit, but Saint Louis is an original Heller kit.

Michel

 


Re: Airfix's "St. Louis" kit question


jtilley 06-10-2006, 12:27 AM
Very interesting!  I gather the St. Louis must have been one of the very last of the genuinely new Heller sailing ship kits.  I'd like to see it; by that time the Heller designers had learned quite a bit about ships and were turning out some serious scale models.  A comparison between the two kits would be enlightening.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

Re: Airfix's "St. Louis" kit question


Papillon 12-09-2006, 12:29 AM

No, the Airfix Royal louis clearly is inspired by the Wasa and a famous contemporary gravure, it was a Dutch built ship and the Airfix interpretation of this ship is very plausible, it's a good kit! Only the decoration on the stern is a bit poor as we only know the profile. It has nothing to do with the Heller St Louis: this kit is based on the very same hull as their Couronne, the latter is based on the plan of the Musee de la Marine/ Paris.

Lindberg "St. Louis"


CaptainBill03 12-10-2006, 11:48 AM

Good morning

I'm just finishing the hull of Lindberg St. Louis (Sir Henry Morgan Pirate Ship).   The hull form looks much like the picture's I've found and when together fairly well.  I've only started the masts and don't yet know if they'll need modification.

I do have some comments.  The upper deck gun carriages are quite poor and the gun trunions to far forward, I replaced the guns from a spare Wappen Van Hamburg and the carriages from the scrap box.   The middle of quarter deck is open with an inaccessible pin rail; I decked it over and left a laddered opening and also added ladders to the forward edge.  The forecastle deck has an opening forward of the mast I also decked over and added ladders.  I'll need to modify the anti-boarding frame to allow ladder openings.

I think she'll be quite a nice model when I get finished. 

Captain Road Kill

 

 

 

 

 


Captain Road Kill

Re: Lindberg "St. Louis"


Papillon 12-10-2006, 9:38 PM

The Lindberg St. Louis is the same as the old Pyro St. Louis (junk!); the latter has nothing to do with either the Heller or Airfix St. Louis. Confusing......huh!?

Max.

Re: Lindberg "St. Louis"


honneamise 12-11-2006, 6:40 AM

The Heller kit is indeed a "Heller original" that shares the hull with "Couronne" - but only the lower portion, from the upper gundeck upwards this is a different kit!

I don´t have any problems with this because "Couronne" as the first real big warship of French design was most likely based on the lines of the "imported" Saint Louis that was built in the Netherlands.

 The Heller kit has more parts than the Airfix one, with full guns on every deck. The heller ship is a bit wider and shallower in height than the Airfix ship, the stern ornament is -from what I have read, correctly- in fact just a cut-out-paper part that has to be glued onto a blank piece of plastic -the original is said to have been a painting!- while the Airfix kit carries real ornaments.

Overall, the Airfix kit looks a little more elegant but I like both kits - all in all there are not that many differences, while the Pyro kit is way overdone in its too pronounced lines (like the various HECEBOP kits of the Couronne BTW) and has a -to put it politely- "ornamental" looking wood grain structure.

 There is one bigger flaw in the Heller version: all the lower hull planks are parallel to the waterline and they do not become narrower to the front and stern ends - that´s not the way a ship is built, just easier to engrave!. A real pity and I do not know ANY other Heller ship kit that has the same issue, maybe at the time the molds had to be finished the guy who knew how to build ships was on holiday....

Powered by Community Server, by Telligent Systems