IPMS Modeling Skill Proficiency Classification Standards

Oh, yes - I understand exactly what you mean!  ;^)  It is the desire to get as much 'right on the money' as possible (within the boundaries of time & resources...)  With the huge amount of information available on the internet (and elsewhere - Mushrooms, anyone?) and the mind-boggling resources (decals, tools, techniques...) we can bring 'fidelity' to a project unimaginable years ago.  But it is so easy to get lost in experience we might never finish, or at least a goal.  Best to have a goal and work to it than to be completely open-ended on a project, I figure.  But whatever the hobby brings to you, I am a supporter as long as you're having fun!  

R/ Robert

I did mean the last part of your "perfect model" reference,,,,and that they should consider whether they are having any fun.

I consider it fun to find out if the stencils were different than the specs called for on this one certain airframe, or if the tail codes differed from the norm somehow,,,,,,such as the oriental font used by VA-75 on their A-6 Intruders for a short time.  Building the 3 small detail variations included in the A-6B group of aircraft. Getting the two Red colors different on my model that were really different on that certain F-4 Phantom.

When I started this hobby,,,,,,,we got 4 star and bar insignia for US aircraft, and six roundels for the UK and IJN/IJA aircraft. Then Microscale came along and sold us the individual squadron markings for our "Zero tails" and etc. So ever since my 75th or 100th model (approx.) I have been having more fun that at first,,,,,,,,because of the detail differences.

If I built without those minute details,,,,I would have been like the TV add that said "I finished the internet",,,,,,I long ago would have hit a huge stopping point when I had one of each aircraft type that interested me built. With all of this "extra work", I can keep right on modeling and do dozens of F-4B and A-4E, etc.

Heck, I even enjoy getting the Flat to Gloss change over date correct for my Navair stuff, although I am leaning towards "scale effecting" the Gloss to SemiGloss and "scale effecting" the Flat to SemiGloss,,,,,,just to help my Aeromaster clears last longer.

Rex, who fully understands that other people may prefer not to delve that deep into details and variations, and supports their choice

Posted by TarnShip on Thu, Aug 21 2014 10:27 PM

"I agree with all that you said Robert.

Right up until part of that last line."

Which part?  You're afterwards talking about details and I don't see anything about details in the last paragraph... perhaps the "perfect model" reference?  When I meant 'perfect' I meant actual perfection.  As in a perfect miniature representation of the real deal.  Granted, I've seen quite a few that came very close...at least for my tastes!

BTW, the 'accuracy based on research' issue you discussed happens all the time but I expect much of the time, if noted on the contest entry form or with a bit of documentation, at least *one* of the judges on the team will figure it out...

Regards, Robert

lewbud

 but did you take the time to find a judge and ask?

Several times and have been told they would get back to me and never did. I don't want to be a pain by chasing people down for critiques. It is best if done at the time of judging while still fresh in their minds. Doesn't have to be a detailed explanation but just quick observations that only takes a few seconds such as for example silvering in decals, top seam visible. Just a couple of notations is plenty.

I better say this, before someone does get offended.

I am just having fun with the concept that people believe that other people "can't possibly be having fun" because they put in the extra effort and time into a model. I do that extra legwork,,,,,,,,,and I don't go around saying that all the modelers that don't do it aren't having fun.

American Football is like that, to some people.  Lots of people have a ton of fun, watching the game on TV, or going to the stadium to watch it. Others join a Fantasy League, and watch all the games to see which of their buddies got more points than they did that week.  Other people *Run* a Fantasy League by hand in a notebook, without using a PC, and watch the games, hold season tickets, etc.  All of those people are having fun at their different levels of participation or viewing.

I have been having fun getting each sub-type of ordnance right on each sub-type of aircraft for decades now.  (and all the etc work that goes with it)

thanks for your thoughts, lewbud.  I really didn't mean any offense. I just meant that you might not know that the decal *has* to be torn to model that Scooter correctly. We already can't model aircraft data and insignia correctly, because we can't model a decal with a clear film around it. Well, maybe we could, if the judging followed a 4 hour seminar on when to use PolyUrethane, when to use Lacquer, when to use a stencil and when to use a decal on the real thing.

Last week, to correctly model a BKR race truck, (both of them)  there has to be a seam along the joint between the front bumper and the grill assembly.  All other weeks, that seam would be a construction flaw.

I have thought it over,,,,and I am going to bring another model along for OOB, just in case,,,,,,but, I am still going to remove those irritating plates and fill in that inaccurate nose line. I am also going to paint it up as a TA-4B.  (model contests need the variety, let someone else "play it safe")

Rex

Rex,

As a car judge, I'm offended by your remark about me possibly judging your Scooters.  OK, not really.  However, as a judge it doesn't matter to me how much research you did, whether the 8 in the tail number is properly faded or not or if your load out is correct.  All that matters is the basics:  do all the wheels touch the ground, are the wings properly aligned, are there any glue spots, fingerprints in the paint, etc.   If the basics aren't covered, the effort you put into it is a moot point on the contest table.  There's a reason why "accuracy" isn't really judged and that's because we can't all be experts in everything, therefore how well the model is constructed is all we have to go on.  As I understand the rules, your Scooter would be allowed in Box Stock.  Just my opinion, your mileage may vary.

I agree with all that you said Robert.

Right up until part of that last line.

Digging out the details and working them into the models is some of the most fun I have ever had in my years as a plastic modeler. I revel in getting the tail codes that were done in the wrong shape done onto a model in that wrong shape. Or the Skyhawk with the torn insignia decal put on with that same tear. Or 24 Skyhawks in a line, with one of each sub-type, all from different squadrons, and all with different loadouts, and each one documented by a photo.

I wouldn't enter any of those into a contest, though,,,,,,because I know that anyone with Skyhawk knowledge will prolly enter his own Scooters and thus be ineligible to judge my category, so I would be at the mercy of some tank, car, sci-fi or ship modeler "not b'leevin innit" when he sees my model.

Gotta go,,,,,,,I am trying to decide if I am going to be allowed to enter the Airfix Scooter in the OOB category if I remove the reinforcement plates and fill in the extra nose access scribing that NEVER appeared on US A4D-2. (before anyone says it,,,,,yes, I said never,,,,the plates were invented much later on),,,,,,,maybe I will just enter it as a TA-4B and really mess them up, lol.

Rex

Basically, most of those grousing about the way contests are 'judged' (whether AMPS, IPMS or other) have never *been* a judge!  As noted, there are very practical concerns related to the methodologies adopted at contests, whether time, money or simple pragmatism.  Face it, these concerns matter!  Otherwise most shows wouldn't be possible at all, becoming too unwieldy, expensive and time consuming in an attempt to reach a 'perfect judgement' process.  As is said, let's get real, people.

Not to be too obvious, but the AMPS method doesn't work at an IPMS-style contest simply because everything is not of the same general type of modeling (imagine an airplane with "armor" style weathering applied for example.)  Building a car, an airplane, a ship or armor - they are all different and cannot be treated to the same subjective standards.  The IPMS judging guidelines are the best & most practical 'cross discipline' tools yet devised but even this relatively simple code is sometimes randomly applied just because judges are human!  As IPMS standards boil down primarily to modeling basics, followed by issues specific to the type of modeling being evaluated, they should be fairly simple to implement even with inexperienced judges.  Should be... To be clear, I am not denigrating the AMPS judging method in any way.  I'm just saying, it isn't practical when you have more than one general modeling discipline to judge.  I found AMPS judging of armor categories within the overall IPMS-style contest at the Old Dominion Open a few years ago interesting.  However, it hasn't yet been repeated so perhaps there were unresolved issues for the organizers.

Big picture is this: modeling contests are something *you* decide to participate in or not. If you do, then you are subject to all the messy & error-prone humanity that comes along with it.  You drank the Kool-aid so don't complain about it afterwards (in my case, I ate the suspicious leftovers in the fridge.)  The Societies attempt to apply as much logic and 'order' to the process as possible, but again there is that individual & human factor.  Being a bunch of volunteers, self-policed and working on an 'honor system', contest judges usually will do their best.  But if you want an absolute, reasonably consistent judgement of your modeling results then you'd need to use only one judge & the same every time.  Since that isn't possible at a contest (or really anywhere), your best bet is to judge it yourself!  Just don't expect anyone else to necessarily agree with you... in short, build for yourself & accept any accolades from others as 'gravy'.

Given all the variability, I still feel the result is usually pretty enjoyable - especially when folks (judges or not) drop their egos at the door and just try and enjoy the action.  However, when winning contests becomes too important, then it just kills the fun.  So beware!  You might ruin your 'pastime' if you're taking it too seriously.

Consider that winning a 1-2-3 contest simply means you beat the competition *at that time*.  It doesn't mean you have reached any certain 'absolute' level of skill - it was a 'relative' judgement of merit, after all.  Conversely, losing such a contest just means the other guy did something (or 'things') better *that day* - and perhaps not 'perfectly'.  Anyone who thinks they are building 'perfect' models needs to change their perspective and start considering whether they're having any fun...

Regards, Robert

plasticjunkie

I think IPMS should adopt the AMPS system of beginner, intermediate, advanced and I think Master, where each model is judged separately, away from other entries, just based on it's own merits. I entered an AMPS competition a couple of years back and was impressed at how thorough and FAIR the judges were. I also like how they noted on the entry form what they liked or disliked to help you improve your builds. Unfortunately, I have entered dozens of IPMS contests and no one takes the time to mention the good or bad about the build.

It becomes an obsession, doesn't it Rex? The thrill of the hunt, model building style... Lol!

And to all of those timid about competing, at many contests, some categories have far few entries than others. If you enter a large rotary wing aircraft in 1/72, there may only be enough competition in that category for a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd by default. You will win place or show just by virtue of having shown up and entered. Conversely if you build the latest must have Tamigawa uber kit that everybody else did, you will be competing in a far more difficult category due to the number of entries. In either case, build what you like, how you like, but be prepared accordingly.

I think some people are getting bogged down in the fine points and missing the broad picture.

IPMS doesn't want us all to become "elite modeling snobs", they just want us to build better models.

While we all should be building for our own pleasure (duhh), the contest rules, whether at the NATS or a local club meeting are only there to provide some guidance as to what a "good model" is.

I can put a model together in 2 days,,,,,,and it will look just exactly as if I did it in two days. But, if I address the issues spelled out in IPMS judging guidelines, I might not build a NATS first place model, but, I will have a chance at a local first place. This is NOT because I am super-competitive, it is only because I have a guide to go by that shows me what "good construction" consists of.

Those exact same rules apply, even if you don't have them written down, for all of our "shelf sitters."  We still try to glue it together well, fill seams, not get fingerprints on it, use just the right amount of putty, trim parts without making them worse, glue things on straight, get a nice paint finish, apply decals without silvering them, get a good top clear coat without bubbles, orange peel or frosting.

So, those rules already apply in our heads, but, then if you go and compete, you see them spelled out, not as "rules to follow or you vill be shot", but, they HAVE to be written out so that each competitor knows what he is going to be judged by. Just imagine the yelling if the rules were all made up on the spot, lol.

The skill classifications are to sort out the better builders, and to give us something to strive for, if we so choose.

You don't have to build to IPMS standards if you choose not to,,,,,,but, if you even say you build the best you can and try to learn more as you go,,,,,,then you really are already trying to follow those same build rules.

Me?,,,simple,,,,,,after years of not competing, and then years of spectating,,,,I am going to dive in and find out how my building stacks up against my peers,,,,,just to find out.

win, lose or draw,,,,I will still win, because I will learn something,,,,,or teach someone something, at those shows

Rex

(to all the "just have fun" people,,,,,,,I am sorry, but, building that way is NOT fun for me,,,,,,I enjoy the search for details, shapes, dimensions, and paint schemes and markings that goes with each of my builds, simple builds are what I did 40 years ago, and they bore me)

There is plenty of fun to be had in modeling clubs... rules and all... in the few years that I have been actively participating, I have yet to come home after a meeting and curse the rules.

I'm glad I build for fun without the 'workplace regulations' that are not fun and never will be! That's perhaps why I've never in 40 years been in a club, where the rules start and the fun stops.

Caveman,

Agreed people get to uptight regarding the enjoyment of a competition.

A quote I wish I heard in my teens and followed:

'Leave the party while you are still having fun'

I don't get a lot of 'bench time' in due to busy life yet I do what I can to promote and help our club put on a competition and expo each fall. Its a way of introducing others to the hobby that's gave me enjoyment for many years.

Our Jr. category is not well attended yet the 'make & take' table is! This year we will promote the 'make & take' more as many apprentice modellers had a great day building.

This is the exact reason that I no longer take my models to shows or contests.  Far to many variables.  A few years back, I attended a show/contest and was not sure how to categorize my model. So I asked some judges for their opinion as to where I should put it.  This nearly started a fistfight between two of them trying to decide how to classify my work.  Personally I could care less how my work is judged, I just wanted to share it.  I didn't go to collect medals or ribbons or whatever.  I just enjoy speaking with fellow plastic addicts and browsing the vendors tables.  More of a social gathering for me now I guess.

On another note, the Grand Poobah classification should be kept.  Might put some smiles on some faces.

When the UK founded the IPMS , you had to submit 3 models to be judged before allowing membership . It turned into an elitist club , we soon got rid of that  thankfully . I say on the day all entrant are winners as that is their best model up to date .  First past the post for me every time .

I think IPMS should adopt the AMPS system of beginner, intermediate, advanced and I think Master, where each model is judged separately, away from other entries, just based on it's own merits. I entered an AMPS competition a couple of years back and was impressed at how thorough and FAIR the judges were. I also like how they noted on the entry form what they liked or disliked to help you improve your builds. Unfortunately, I have entered dozens of IPMS contests and no one takes the time to mention the good or bad about the build.

Yes agreed 1-2-3 as in gold, silver bronze is the most cost effective award system and the easiest & quickest to judge.

I entered a contest where gold, silver bronze were awarded for reaching a points system. I must say accepting a award with a dozen others took away the achievement of the award, especially when all entrants reached a gold standard in a category!

My first IPMS club in Washington DC held a monthly contest.    After you placed first in some number of contests you were designated a master modeler in that category.   You then competed in the master's category.  You got a beautiful certificate,  run off on a dot-matrix printer, suitable for framing and display on your "Me" wall.

When I moved to upstate New York and went to my first IPMS meeting there I told them I was a master in ships and 1:144 aircraft.   They looked at me strangely -- never heard of the designation.    Its a IPMS-DC thing.

Similarly IPMS-North Central Texas does nothing along the lines of the masters category.    Its a local issue.

Not too long ago there was a "premier category" in the IPMS Nationals.  IIRC, this was to encourage new participants and was an award for their first entries,  even if they didn't place 1-2-3.    It is no longer in place.

Lets talk about cost & logistics.   IIRC without going to the official category list, there are about 250 categories, including Youth and Junior categories.  Lets assume that there are 200 regular categories.  Now assume that  that the IPMS were to add awards for Basic,  Intermediate, and Master in each of the 200-ish categories.   You have now tripled the cost of awards for the convention organizing committee.   That is a cost borne by the local group,  not the National organization.   A trophy pack for one category costs in the order of a hundred bucks -- triple that.   The cost of the venue is pretty much covered by the charges to the vendors.   The cost of the convention will be passed to the participants.   Would you pay triple to attend?   Walk in fees also triple - cutting down on that income because fewer people would want to front that money just to do the walk through.

Judging - Now you need to come up with more judges.   As it is there are really not enough judges in the aircraft & armor categories to do them efficiently.  In ships I had about 6 teams of three to cover about 20 categories.   It took is about 4-5 hours to do -- the aircraft & armor categories took about another hour to complete.   Head judging actions and paperwork took another couple of hours.    You need to triple your judging staff or triple the time it takes to complete the task.

What it seems to me is that you want to see the Gold/Silver/Bronze award system used across the pond and in some other modeling organizations.   There can be any number of gold awards given in a category,  depending that the modeler has met or exceeded the gold criteria in a category.  Same for silver and bronze.  GSB vs 123 has been debated among the IPMS completion committee and the decision has settled on 123.   

Some thoughts to ponder

Ed Grune

IPMS National Competition Committee - Head Ship Judge

Our small club is always striving to improve our now annual event. We look at the IPMS system of judging as the benchmark of excellence.

Due to time constraints and rounding up 'volunteers' to judge the day of our contest we use a Olympic style format to award gold, silver and bronze in each category. Its defiantly faster than scoring each model on its own merits but eventually we would like to have the ability, personnel and time to implement a IPMS system of judging.

Back to the original topic of a system of ranking modellers by skill set and talent:

Any system that levels the playing field, encourages and helps improvement while keeping contests and events enjoyable to all is the best way to go.

Many enter a contest only to be overwhelmed by the competition and quite a few never return. The feeling of building a model they are proud of only to realize it does not belong in a contest can even turn people away from the hobby or attending events.

Like I mentioned above more scrutiny and help selecting the correct category and skill level at the door would make contests more enjoyable especially for modellers new to competitions.  

Some of our officers in our chapter are also officers at the national level. Although I do not know what the national level categories are, I suspect that they are similar. I would have to take a look at the IPMS USA website to see for sure. I have only been to one nationals event as a visitor, although I have also entered a build for nationals last year as part of a group entry.

If anybody here ever visits the Los Angeles area or lives here, I invite you to come visit our chapter. We meet the third Friday evening of every month in LaPalma CA. It is a great bunch of guys and a fun club! I am so glad that Duke Maddog here invited me to visit 7 years ago.

Interesting topic. 

The discussion seems, however, to always come down to;   "... hopefully someone with some connections say with IPMS to maybe recommend the possible implementation of a classification system in the future...."  and   "...Maybe some of your leadership could encourage folks at IPMS to implement a similar system on the national level...."

While my  opinion of a classification system, may coincide with yours, why do you wish to have IPMS members champion your cause ?      Would it not be more effective for you, to join IPMS and then as a member you could raise the issue with the officers (of both your chapter and the national office as well as fellow members and perhaps be the catalyst of a new resurgence of modeling in the U.S.? 

Or have I misunderstood the premise?

Sounds ok but I'd keep the number of categories to a minimum.  I like the Junior, Novice, Advanced and Master categories.  

If you have too many categories then what might happen is that you'll end up with a bunch of people in 1 or 2 categories and several people in others.  And you'll have to buy all the awards (trophies, ribbons, plaques, etc...) for all the categories which could be a budget breaker for some IPMS chapters.

A tip of the fedora to your chapter stikpusher.  Maybe some of your leadership could encourage folks at IPMS to implement a similar system on the national level.

Radarider

I like your concept SuppressionFire.  KISS (Keep it simple stupid).  Thanks for the input.  Maybe you could bend the ear of your IPMS friend to push for this.  

Radarider

Our local IPMS chapter has four categories: Junior, for modelers under 18 years of age; Novice- for new members; Advanced- for when you have moved up and on; Master- for the top level. Obviously "Juniors" are only in that category until adulthood. The adult categories require five first place wins in the local contest level to move up to the next higher category. It is not easy once you get to the advanced level in our chapter. There are many great modelers who are members.  

Interesting idea it has merits but for simplicity sake the categories should be simpler:

Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced, Master and Professional.

To work each modeller would need to answer questions regarding his experience, time allocated to the hobby (per week?) and his quiver of tools used to accomplish his work. Then his best work evaluated to determine his level of proficiency and category classification. A online registry could then be established that records points earned per IPMS events entered and eventually 'bump' the modeller up to the next level.

I do not see the use of 'handicaps'  to compete against builds in a different classification, just competition against modellers of a similar skill set.

A friend involved with IPMS did mention a similar classification system but it did not include Beginner or Professional categories.

Of course some will bend to rules to bring home more prizes, a closer examination of entries at the door with the knowledge of the persons previous results would help add honesty to those that are less than.