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Judging Models

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  • Member since
    April, 2006
  • From: denver, colorado
Posted by waynec on Saturday, December 13, 2014 9:23 PM

judging at local contests can be a bit of a crap shoot. it helps to have one person knowledgeable in the subject to point out obvious flaws (such s someone who knows the round thingie on the back of a PZ IV is a muffler not a fuel tank). my BEDFORD took a 2nd in a regional but didn't place in a later local contest. OTOH my UN UNIMOG took a first in regional and local and 2nd in another local (commercial trucks) . the 2nd was going up against a 40+yr experience model builder in my club with a tricked out 1/24 wrecker. some of my wins are ok builds that saturated a category (that i happen to enjoy building in) but some are worthy of bragging. i do enjoy it and enjoy the wins but don't mourn the losses.

"You can avoid reality but you can't avoid the consequences of avoiding reality."

 

  • Member since
    December, 2002
  • From: Fort Knox
Posted by Rob Gronovius on Saturday, December 20, 2014 11:57 PM

.

  • Member since
    April, 2006
  • From: denver, colorado
Posted by waynec on Sunday, December 21, 2014 10:54 AM

Rob Gronovius

an Abrams tank or other modern US armor piece, I could judge those items and more, but would have to "force" myself to see through inaccurate markings, like USMC markings on an Army M1A2SEP or USMC style grenade launchers on an Army tank and just look at construction basics.

hey rob

you should have seen me judging sci fi and figures. it was all about the basics until the last 3 and than a which one did we like most. like over weathered armor, so some of these universes can fly FTL but can't prevent rust? unless, of course, we are talking FIREFLY.

i wouldn't know any of that. maybe that's why i build JGSDF and PLA stuff. not too many Chinese army judges. Smilei understand the forcing issue but i wonder if an inaccuracy on an OOB build should even be considered. obviously in a contest with no specific OOB it would be judge able. or maybe my mind is delving into minutia this AM and i need to focus it on some detail stuff like a 1/35 truck engine or a jigsaw puzzle... 

"You can avoid reality but you can't avoid the consequences of avoiding reality."

 

  • Member since
    March, 2007
  • From: Northeast WA State
Posted by armornut on Friday, December 26, 2014 3:54 PM

Unless i'm misunderstanding this thread ( entirely possible) no one here has yet to qoute the actual rules of judging set forth by IPMS, it is my understanding that BASIC construction, APPLICATION of finish and decals are to be judged before color or accuracy. If an obvious seam is not addressed it matters not what color the subject is. I do however rarely enter contests myself mostly cause i've turned into a collector vs a builder, but i have also had my fill of "rivet counters", i will gladly fill a table at an exibition though. I mean no disrespect with my two cents, a few of ya'll are folks i talk to and am humbled by the work you do show. Great thread, this is how our hobby grows and adapts to changing times.

we're modelers it's what we do

  • Member since
    April, 2006
  • From: denver, colorado
Posted by waynec on Friday, December 26, 2014 4:54 PM

armornut

...by IPMS, it is my understanding that BASIC construction, APPLICATION of finish and decals are to be judged before color or accuracy. If an obvious seam is not addressed it matters not what color the subject is...

my understanding is colors aren't suppose to be judged  within reason. obviously any unusual color scheme should be documented. bases aren't suppose to be judged either but it's difficult to separate not to, ASSUMING the model sitting on top is a well done build. i'm sure at least one of my field guns won in part because it has a cool base that is within the new IPMS base rules.

i'll talk to the ipms head judge at breakfast on saturday if he makes it down due to weather.

http://www.ipmsusa2014.com/2014_IPMS-USA_National_Contest_Rules.pdf

"You can avoid reality but you can't avoid the consequences of avoiding reality."

 

  • Member since
    March, 2005
  • From: near Nashville, TN
Posted by TarnShip on Friday, December 26, 2014 5:27 PM

Accuracy is actually a  judging criteria (that would include colors),,,,,,,but, it is something like the 5th item on the list, with one huge exception.

Something like a Gloss Sea Blue Sherman, an International Orange Arizona or an Olive Drab F-4S gets thrown out before even looking at the glue seams and the quality of the paint job.

from the link in Wayne's post above, and in section

II-Contest Definitions and Judging

"Judging.  Models will be judged for skill in construction, finish, realism, scope of effort, and accuracy. " (there it is, Accuracy is number 5 in the IPMS-USA list of criteria for judging)

Rex

almost gone

  • Member since
    August, 2005
  • From: Mansfield, TX
Posted by EdGrune on Friday, December 26, 2014 6:43 PM

TarnShip

Accuracy is actually a  judging criteria (that would include colors),,,,,,,but, it is something like the 5th item on the list, with one huge exception.

Something like a Gloss Sea Blue Sherman, an International Orange Arizona or an Olive Drab F-4S gets thrown out before even looking at the glue seams and the quality of the paint job.

from the link in Wayne's post above, and in section

II-Contest Definitions and Judging

"Judging.  Models will be judged for skill in construction, finish, realism, scope of effort, and accuracy. " (there it is, Accuracy is number 5 in the IPMS-USA list of criteria for judging)

Rex

 
In the 2015 rules (approved and pending posting on the website) that section has been modified to read:
 
Models will be judged for skill in construction, finish, realism, and scope of effort; accuracy may be used as a criteria for determining final ranking for similar model subjects.  Additional criteria are considered for special categories such as Dioramas, Collections, Conversions, and Triathlon. 
 
The IPMS USA National Competition Committee is trying to address the long-standing 'judging accuracy' issue
  • Member since
    March, 2005
  • From: near Nashville, TN
Posted by TarnShip on Friday, December 26, 2014 7:02 PM

Thanks Ed,,,,,,,so it is going to be spelled out even plainer as a tie-breaker.

By being 5th in line, it was only going to be used as a tie-breaker, anyway. That is what I was trying to say. (I am just saying that it is not correct to say that "accuracy is not a criteria", in 2014 and 2015 both, it is still on the list)

I'm more concerned with all the talk about models winning at a Regional and then being entered in a Local,,,,,,,,I thought that was not allowed? "entering upwards" is okay, but, not "slumming with a winner"

Rex

almost gone

  • Member since
    March, 2007
  • From: Northeast WA State
Posted by armornut on Saturday, December 27, 2014 8:41 AM

Now that i must agree with, i think it's fine to enter a regional winner as EXIBITION and not to compete,nothing wrong with showing off but try to beat possible less skilled modelers with a proven winner is IMO bad eticute. Not to go astray but what is said about entering the regional winner in another regional, ie one wins in region 7 and wants to travel to region 3 before going to Nationals?

we're modelers it's what we do

  • Member since
    August, 2005
  • From: Mansfield, TX
Posted by EdGrune on Saturday, December 27, 2014 4:18 PM

TarnShip

I'm more concerned with all the talk about models winning at a Regional and then being entered in a Local,,,,,,,,I thought that was not allowed? "entering upwards" is okay, but, not "slumming with a winner"

.
 
There are trophy whores.  There are some in most any endeavor.   The rules say ...

 

Prior Winners.  Models that have won First-, Second-, or Third-place, or Out-Of-The-Box awards in any category of any previous IPMS/USA National Model Contest may not be entered in any subsequent IPMS/USA National Model Contest for awards, except as provided in Section III, Rules 4, 5, & 6.  Previous award winners can be used as noted in Collections, Triathlon and Group entries.  Models that have won an award as part of a Collection, Triathlon or Group entry may also be entered individually in subsequent National Contests.  However, models that have won individually, and as part of a Collection, Triathlon or Group entry, are not eligible for subsequent National Contests.

 

These rules address the national contest.    Local and regional contests are not explicitly bound to follow the NCC rules.     Check the local and regional organizing committee's rules and address your concerns to the contest director.     

As far as campaigning a model through local and regional contests.   I see no problem with that,  even neighboring regionals,    But running a regional winner back through locals does smack of being a trophy whore.   But check your rules.

1)  If it is not in the rules,  raise the issue to the rules committee/contest director for possible future incorporation.

2)  If you are not a member,  you have no standing to complain.  Join and make your opinion heard

 

Trophy whores is probably a subject for a new thread

  • Member since
    March, 2007
  • From: Northeast WA State
Posted by armornut on Sunday, January 04, 2015 9:31 AM

Thanks Ed, this discussion seems to have been tabled in lue of checking of information. Like i said earlier stuff like this heelps this hobby stay current and change with the times. IPMS#46399

we're modelers it's what we do

  • Member since
    October, 2014
Posted by TallRider67 on Wednesday, February 25, 2015 12:02 AM

IPMS judging on the national level is done by three judge teams.  So yes they talk to each other.

Our local club invested in a box of cheap penlights, and plastic dental mirrors so entries would not be handled by the judges.  Really ticked off the armor guys who had a habit of not finishing the underside of the hulls or inside of the road wheels.  If I could get down at table lever with my flashlight and see it, it was dinged.

When I'd judged at nationals, we were asked to stay around after the awards were announced, to answer questions by entrants.  Writing down what we saw about certain models is very time consuming.

 I'm at a loss, trying to understand the griping in here.  If you don't like contests, get nothing out of them, or are just too insecure, fine.  Don't go.  Why waste time going on about something you have no interest in.

  • Member since
    March, 2005
  • From: near Nashville, TN
Posted by TarnShip on Wednesday, February 25, 2015 12:38 AM

I know that a bunch of us weren't "griping" at all in this thread, just discussing.

And I am pretty sure that Ed knows how many judges, and how many teams, etc......considering his position.

Ed, that brings to mind something I have been wondering about for a while,,,,,,,,,when did Rusty stop being IPMS Head Ship Judge?

Rex (another SMMLie)

almost gone

  • Member since
    January, 2011
Posted by Bugatti Fan on Tuesday, April 14, 2015 2:14 PM

Having read all the previous comments, judging will always be contentious.

I respect everyone's views. Some like contests,others not, so each to their own.

As long as we all enjoy the hobby in our own different ways and don't start taking ourselves or others too seriously that's fine by me!

But always be on the lookout for that sub species the 'Miffed Modeller Pothunter' who is full of their own self importance. Always seen lurking around competition areas no matter how big or small the show to get their winning 'fix'. Goes Cold Turkey if they lose, often accompanied by a load of negative diatribe about competitors models, judges parentage etc. ad nauseum.

  • Member since
    January, 2014
Posted by Silver on Wednesday, July 22, 2015 3:26 PM
No Judge in this world is an expert.The I.P.M.S. Rule book rivals any large phone book.Ask who is in charge of that event and they or one will in their best that we assume explain the rules or any type of hurdles to jump over to compete .
  • Member since
    January, 2014
Posted by Silver on Wednesday, July 22, 2015 3:28 PM
Enter anyway and see what happens.Enjoy it and do not let the judges run you over like the rest of the world.
  • Member since
    January, 2014
Posted by Silver on Wednesday, July 22, 2015 3:31 PM
I have seen people judging and competing at the same show.That to me is a no,no.
  • Member since
    April, 2006
  • From: denver, colorado
Posted by waynec on Thursday, July 23, 2015 11:48 AM

Silver
I have seen people judging and competing at the same show.That to me is a no,no.

as long as you aren't judging your category it's fine. i have had 14 entries and still judged in cars or sci-fi. you can learn a lot from categories you usually don't build such as. "i'm not competing in this category. those guys are crazy."

"You can avoid reality but you can't avoid the consequences of avoiding reality."

 

  • Member since
    January, 2014
Posted by Silver on Thursday, July 23, 2015 2:17 PM
Being a Judge is being part of the staff.Not in my world of modeling ethics .IPMS or any organization should get rid of such activities.Should not conduct an event with a shortage of Judges to begin with.Well, that's only my opinion.
  • Member since
    January, 2014
Posted by Silver on Thursday, July 23, 2015 2:29 PM
I walk around during an event and oft see and hear conversations between judges of each category .What is hear is disturbing .At one time a favored Armor modeler who entered an armor madel was judging aircraft then an armor judge came over to the armor guy who was judging aircraft for some advice on the armor models.Thats what's going on.You got to watch out at these events and you will see and listen on what's really going on.Armor guy judging aircraft?I don't think so.
  • Member since
    January, 2014
Posted by Silver on Thursday, July 23, 2015 2:49 PM
At any event all judges talk to each other.Thats why I think that's not fair for a modeler who waits all year for that one time event and worked so hard on a project.
  • Member since
    August, 2005
  • From: Mansfield, TX
Posted by EdGrune on Thursday, July 23, 2015 8:33 PM

TarnShip

Ed, that brings to mind something I have been wondering about for a while,,,,,,,,,when did Rusty stop being IPMS Head Ship Judge?

This is my third full year.   Before me,  Mark Persichetti was head ship judge.   He is now overall head judge.  Mark was probably the head ship judge for 5-6 years.    Guess that Rusty is 8 to 10 years out of being the head ship judge.    Rusty is still active as a moderator in the forums.

Silver

The I.P.M.S. Rule book rivals any large phone book.


    
The rule book is four pages long.    If you had bothered to follow the previously posted links ....
  • Member since
    January, 2014
Posted by Silver on Thursday, July 23, 2015 9:37 PM
Holding a contest one time a year is not really going national or international.At times the same city gets to host a convention several times .A winner is really not the best if that winner can't compete w/ everyone in the U.S.
  • Member since
    January, 2011
Posted by Bugatti Fan on Wednesday, October 18, 2017 11:37 AM

Having judged and competed at IPMSUK Scale Modelworld where the competition is at the highest level there will always be people that will be unhappy with the results. Being a judge you have to resign yourself to the fact that you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.  Personally I don't lose any sleep about either my judging decisions or how one of my models gets placed, or the diatribes of sore losers either.

  • Member since
    September, 2016
Posted by Retired In Kalifornia on Wednesday, October 18, 2017 8:42 PM

As I'd posted elsewhere, in 1991 entered 7 models in one category at my local IPMS chapter's fall contest, two other modelers entered one each, the beautifully detailed Cessna O-1 Bird Dog submitted by one of them won.

The local IPMS chapter judges, most lotta years older than I, undoubtly are/were talented modelers, do wonder how many models they'd built over their lifetimes, know I've built over 700 since 1961. Quantity doesn't make quality but building a lot has helped me build better - would any of my recent builds past muster at an IPMS-judged contest?

I like to build Regia Aeronautica Italia subjects, if I'd entered any of my models in an Italian IPMS chapter they might be chuckled off the table, on the other hand they might be appreciated more than at an IPMS USA chapter. If "subject matter" is a factor in IPMS contest judging then research sources matter as well.

I've spent small fortunes on aviation research info over the decades but there are limits; Internet info about the 1/72 Choroszy Modelbud (CM) CANT Z.504 & Savoia-Marchetti S.78 floatplanes am building is very thin; the CM kits are well detailed, where did they get their research info? I'm not going to spend a fortune trying to get the same info CM has so will build their models competently as I can.

Building competently is important to me; am assuming IPMS judges look for competent building; I didn't build as competently in 1991 as do now; won't enter my models in competitive contests no matter how competently built, just don't wanna be humilated again.

  • Member since
    September, 2017
  • From: western North Carolina
Posted by kensar on Thursday, October 19, 2017 7:44 AM

I have competed in many contests, mostly automotive contests, and I have also judged in quite a few.  I have seen obviously biased judging.  I know just because a select few people (assumed to be subject matter experts) are chosen to judge a category, that dosen't mean the best model will be chosen.  Most subject matter experts have models entered in the categories that they are experts in.

For these reasons, several years ago, many car contests changed judging to the 'NNL' format where everyone attending the show casts votes as 'judges' for the top few models.  This resolved the issue of finding the 'right' people to judge models, making running the contest easier.  Yes, in this case, the judging is not based on absolute accuracy of the subject, but it is more of a popularity contest and how the model is presented.  Overall, most people are satisfied with the outcome.  There are not just a few judges to place blame on if a peticular model did or did not win - the outcome was the choice of everyone present.

As a contestant in this contest format, having my model chosen as one of the top models of the show gave me a lot more satisfaction than having a few judges select it.  I don't understand why many IPMS organizations didn't adopt this format.

 

 

Kensar

 

  • Member since
    September, 2016
Posted by Retired In Kalifornia on Thursday, October 19, 2017 9:42 AM

The local IPMS chapter I'd entered models back in 1991 is still active, will have a "Model Show, Contest and Swap Meet" in February. The last show listed on their website with photos (didn't see many airplanes interestingly) was 2016, no download form links for the 2018 show yet.  I might show up just to see if the same folks are still running the chapter, they've got to be close to 80 by now.

  • Member since
    January, 2013
Posted by BlackSheepTwoOneFour on Saturday, October 21, 2017 5:37 PM

I often wondered if any judge has handled a kit too many times and caused a small part snap off because of their overzealous attitude. 

  • Member since
    January, 2011
Posted by Bugatti Fan on Monday, October 23, 2017 3:58 AM

Kensar, I can understand where you are coming from and your suggestion would only be workable at smaller single category shows. It would be a logistical nightmare to get all attending IPMS members to judge at the US Nationals or at Telford in the UK. The competition area would be simply overwhelmed and if every member had the judging criteria form to fill in it would just degenerate into chaos. What might work for a single subject show would not work in a multi class environment at a large show. Don't know how many members attend the USNats but a large percentage of IPMS UK members attend SMW at Telford on both or either day over the weekend. We have getting on for 3000 members, so therein lies the problem of all members voting. The comps area needs to be reasonably clear for judging to take place or it would never get completed. I accept that there are and will always be widely differing opinions about judging, but really it is a question of what is both practical and workable depending on the size of the show. At national level we have to trust that the organisers will place competent judges to look at their specialised interest group. At small shows often judges get 'roped in' on the day however.

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