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Big turret vs. small turret / return rollers: yes or no

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  • Member since
    July 2008
  • From: Vancouver, the "wet coast"
Big turret vs. small turret / return rollers: yes or no
Posted by castelnuovo on Thursday, April 17, 2014 1:46 PM

Why is it that western tanks like Abrams or Leopard have huge complex looking turrets that stick out to the side when turned but Russian tanks like t-55, t-90 etc have relatively small and simple looking turrets?

Also, could somebody explain why some tanks have and others have not return rollers for the tracks?

Thanks...

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Thursday, April 17, 2014 2:26 PM

The big turrets on modern western MBTs are teh result of two things- the multi layer composite armor, and the housing of ammunition in the turret rear in a seperate compartment to minimize blast effects upon the crew in case of a hit and detonation there. Other things such as fire contol systems- ballistic computers, thermal sights, etc, add to the turret bulk. Also Western modern MBTs are designed with crew comfort and ergonomics in mind to reduce crew fatigue in prolonged battle. The cramped spaces of Soviet tanks enhance teh fatigue factor. Also, since the T-64, their tanks have had a main gun auto loader, thus reducing the number of men to be in the turret and allowing for smaller design. But with exposed ammunition and catastrophic effects in case of penetration.

Return rollers are simply a design feature as to particular types of suspension. They are more complicated to manufacture, maintain, and logisticly support than large road wheels that serve both functions. But there is supposed to be a mobility advantage and track life/wear advantage in designs with return rollers. Even the Soviets moved away from that style of design with the T-64/T-72/T-80 families of MBTs and the BMP IFVs.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    July 2008
  • From: Vancouver, the "wet coast"
Posted by castelnuovo on Thursday, April 17, 2014 4:06 PM

Thanks for the clarification, Stick. Now if you could also tell me how did you make that big picture combination of GB badges in your post. I would like to make something like that.

Cheers...

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Thursday, April 17, 2014 6:00 PM

Lol! I wish that I could tell you. Somebody made it for me... I did not do it myself... I am computer challenged in so many ways...

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: Sydney, Australia
Posted by Phil_H on Thursday, April 17, 2014 11:26 PM

The other thing to consider is the Cold War Soviet doctrine of "strength in numbers".

They spent a significant part of their budget on military hardware on the basis of having overwhelming numbers. Though not as technically advanced as Western hardware, they believed that the sheer weight of numbers would be enough to take down their adversaries. If I recall correctly, it was estimated that Soviet armour outnumbered NATO by about 3:1 (or more). Their tanks were simpler, making them less expensive and easier to manufacture.

Unable to match them one to one, technical innovations in Western armour, in terms of armour (as mentioned above), mobility and firepower (which together give improved survivability) were supposed to close the gap. I believe the term frequently used was "force multiplier" - fewer tanks, but with greater survivability.

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Thursday, April 17, 2014 11:39 PM

The Soviets built their tank design philosophy around the Christy tank that could ship its tracks and run on its road wheels.

They also had a four person crew ie a smaller turret.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Friday, April 18, 2014 3:03 AM

Yes, but the Christie tanks had actual power going to the roadwheels and not just the drive sprocket. While the postwar Soviet MBTs with no return rollers did not have a true "christie" suspension, but merely an outward resemblance. Yes, Soviet doctrine was based upon their WWII battlefield expereinces of overwhelming numbers of comparatively inexpensive tanks that had good armor and hitting power. Overall at one point Warsaw Pact vs NATO was something like a 5 to 1 superiority in tanks. That was one reason that NATO had tactical nukes in their defensive doctrine for so long. They could not gaurantee holding out against such odds. And of course an attacker could concentrate his forces at a chosen location to go beyond that ratio. Conventional military doctrine holds that an attacking force should have at least a 3 to 1 superiority over a defending force. But as battles in the Arab Israeli Wars would prove, particularly 1973, odds alone do not gaurantee success.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Friday, April 18, 2014 5:58 AM

An interesting discussion here.

castel, I regards to the badge, I use paint.net. I am not very good at explaining this sort of thing,, ir took me ages to work it out. Basically, I open a new file and set it to the size I wanted. I then used the layers link and imported each badge onto the background, putting them in place and adjusting the size. Not sure if that helps.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

 

On the bench: Airfix 1/72nd Harrier GR.3/Fujimi 1/72nd Ju 87D-3

  • Member since
    January 2013
Posted by BlackSheepTwoOneFour on Saturday, April 19, 2014 7:57 PM

I use paint.net myself. It's free and easy to use. I've done quite a few tags for my online squad - including my own.

  • Member since
    April 2006
  • From: Denver, Colorado
Posted by waynec on Sunday, April 27, 2014 11:00 AM
castelnuovo

Thanks for the clarification, Stick. Now if you could also tell me how did you make that big picture combination of GB badges in your post. I would like to make something like that.

Cheers...

I use photoshop and other programs but i am a technical illustrator soon to be retired and doing graphics for fun and friends, maybe do some decals to sell. But i digress. To add to what bish said and this will work with any program. I have a file called BADGES WORKING in my design program. Each badge is on its own layer. As i enter a GB i save or make in a number of cases that badge. I copy and paste into the BADGES WORKING on a new layer and move it where i want. When done i save the file IN THE DESIGN PROGRAM!!!!! so i can open it later and add to it. When tat is done i crop if needed, export as a jpg, load it into photobucket and drop the IMG code for it into my signature block. the reason there are gaps in mine is because i have not finished the build of that GB so the badge is there but the layer is turned off. When i finish i open WORKING BADGES turn on the layer SAVE THE DESIGN FILE then crop and export like usual. hope that helps

Никто не Забыт    (No one is Forgotten)
Ничто не Забыто  (Nothing is Forgotten)

 

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