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Musashi found?

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  • Member since
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  • From: Willamette Valley, Oregon
Musashi found?
Posted by goldhammer on Wednesday, March 4, 2015 8:21 AM

Just saw a blurb on Yahoo that Paul Allen from Microsoft says he has found her.  Several errors in the blurb though.

  • Member since
    March 2003
  • From: Western North Carolina
Posted by Tojo72 on Wednesday, March 4, 2015 8:44 AM

Would be intersting if true.That Ballard stuff is really fascinating.

  • Member since
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  • From: Willamette Valley, Oregon
Posted by goldhammer on Wednesday, March 4, 2015 9:18 AM

Said he spent 8 years looking for her.  Pics on Yahoo show a valve and the space on the bow for the Chrysanthemum seal of the Empire.  Says pics on Allen's website show the valve, bow, a gun turret, starboard anchor and a catapult.

Wonder if they have ever located her sister Yamoto, or the 3rd "stepsister" they converted to a carrier that USS Archerfish sunk.

  • Member since
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  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Wednesday, March 4, 2015 9:47 AM

A Japanese expedition located the wreck of the Yamato quite a few years ago. The discovery is no secret, but hasn't gotten a great deal of publicity. The wreck is inside Japanese territorial waters, and Japanese culture frowns severely on disturbing grave sites.

There are a few sketches of the wreck site in Janos Skulski's superb Anatomy of the Ship: The Battleship Yamato.

Incidentally - several different systems of transliterating Japanese characters into the western alphabet have been in use over the years, but I'm accustomed to seeing the Yamato's sister ship spelled Musashi.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
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  • From: NW Washington
Posted by dirkpitt77 on Wednesday, March 4, 2015 9:59 AM

This is interesting.

Goldhammer, the third 'stepsister' of which you speak was Shinano. I read a great book one time detailing the exploits of Archerfish and her captain, Joe Enright, on the mission to sink Shinano. Wish I could remember the name of it.

Speaking of shipwrecks, I also recently finished a book called 'Cry From The Deep', which relates the story of the sinking of the Russian submarine Kursk in August, 2000. What makes the event doubly sad is the Soviet-era thinking that was still in place, making top level officials reluctant to ask for help or disclose key information that could be used to rescue the then-survivors in the aft compartment of the sub. I highly recommend this book for anyone interested in shipwrecks or submarine history.

Chris

    "Some say the alien didn't die in the crash.  It survived and drank whiskey and played poker with the locals 'til the Texas Rangers caught wind of it and shot it dead."

  • Member since
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Posted by GMorrison on Wednesday, March 4, 2015 10:22 AM

Now is the chance to shine, IJN fans!

On his Twitter, Mr. Allen asks for help identifying use of the valve.

OP check the spelling on your post.

Having just read a book about the sinking of the Bismark which didn't cost the FAA any aircraft, this was really a different story. This ship took so much punishment that included a turret explosion that it was able to preserve the lives of half of its crew, plus 800 survivors from the Maya.

Pretty tough stuff.

Modeling is an excuse to buy books

 

  • Member since
    March 2003
  • From: Western North Carolina
Posted by Tojo72 on Wednesday, March 4, 2015 10:56 AM

I have a book called "Pigboats" and there is a chapter on Archerfish's sinking of Shinano.

I love Ballard's book on some of those underse wrecks.i have the one on Bismarck,the ships of Midway,and ships of Guadalcanal,I would recommend them.

  • Member since
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Posted by BlackSheepTwoOneFour on Wednesday, March 4, 2015 12:38 PM

More on the WW2 Japanese ship found:

www.msn.com/.../ar-BBicZXJ

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    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Wednesday, March 4, 2015 12:42 PM

Thanks BS214:

That's a very sharp video.

Does anyone know if the Shinano wreck was ever found?

Modeling is an excuse to buy books

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Wednesday, March 4, 2015 3:20 PM

Very interesting indeed.

The only thing that bothers me a little bit is the assertion that the chrysanthemum crest identifies the ship. My understanding is that all Japanese surface ships had such crests - though the bigger ships had bigger crests.

I googled "wreck of battleship yamato." That brought up several sites, a fair number of photos, a video, and reproductions of the drawings in Mr. Skulski's book.

Fascinating stuff.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Wednesday, March 4, 2015 4:10 PM

Yes, IIRC, the Imperial Crest was on the bow of all IJN warships. I learned that off "Victory at Sea", "Rings Around Rabaul" when I was a young boy..,

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

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  • Member since
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Posted by GMorrison on Wednesday, March 4, 2015 5:02 PM

So here is a serious question. Does this mean that Paul Allen now owns the world's largest battleship?

Modeling is an excuse to buy books

 

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Wednesday, March 4, 2015 5:07 PM

Under international maritime law is it considered a wreck that can be salvaged or a war grave that must be left alone?

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    August 2014
  • From: Willamette Valley, Oregon
Posted by goldhammer on Wednesday, March 4, 2015 5:49 PM

I would assume a war grave, but it would be something to salvage one of the main gun turrets for a display somewhere.

  • Member since
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  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Wednesday, March 4, 2015 6:29 PM

That would be a serious task. I vaguely recall reading that each turret weighed as much as a small Destroyer.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    January 2013
Posted by BlackSheepTwoOneFour on Wednesday, March 4, 2015 6:43 PM

Imagine finding 1000 Japanese sailor remains of what's left of them inside.

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Wednesday, March 4, 2015 8:21 PM

I doubt that there would be much left of human remains onboard her after 70 years at the bottom of the Sibuyan Sea. But still, this was not a ship that was scuttled after evacuating her crew, like the Graf Spee. Musashi went down in combat taking many of her crew with her. She is both their tomb and tombstone.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Wednesday, March 4, 2015 8:21 PM

The fact that this gent found her doesn't make her his property. I have no idea what Filipino law says about shipwrecks. The fact that she was a naval vessel complicates things. I don't know what possible claim Japan may have to the wreck. Or, for that matter, the governments to which Japan surrendered.

Confederate shipwrecks are the property of the U.S. government. So is the USS Arizona. The Musashi. As a Japanese warship lying in Philipino waters, is, I suspectt, a comlex legal case. I suppose there's a potential there for a bunch of lawyers to make a whole lot of money. Personally, I'll be happiest if they photograph the wreck, document it, and leave it in peace.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    August 2014
  • From: Willamette Valley, Oregon
Posted by goldhammer on Thursday, March 5, 2015 8:43 AM

1500 tons would be a bit much to bring up, and while it would be something to see and put the size of the Yamato's in perspective,  I really agree with jtilley she should be left as is and just documented.  At least she has been found and the actual location can give some closure to relatives of the men lost on her.

Now if we could find all of the 52 boats still on patrol that we lost.

  • Member since
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  • From: Willamette Valley, Oregon
Posted by goldhammer on Thursday, March 5, 2015 9:17 AM

Just saw an article in our paper, Allen says he respects it as a war grave, and will work to see it is honored in Japanese traditions.  

  • Member since
    July 2013
Posted by DURR on Thursday, March 5, 2015 12:48 PM

well  it is a war grave but as one there is no reason qualified science/historians people should not be able to visit      i mean we go to a cemetry and visit it with respect  right?

  • Member since
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  • From: Willamette Valley, Oregon
Posted by goldhammer on Thursday, March 5, 2015 2:27 PM

Back in the far recesses of my weak brain, I seem to recall that a 4th was laid down and the keel and construction to that time was damaged by an earthquake, and really beyond repair, then was scrapped and the steel used for more pressing construction and repairs.

  • Member since
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Posted by tankerbuilder on Thursday, March 5, 2015 2:55 PM

Hello :

   Although that would be an interesting endeavour I disagree . If it is indeed the MUSASHI I believe she should remain at rest and undisturbed .She lived , fought and died along with half of her crew . She is a grave therefore and should be treated as such .

     We took guns from the ARIZONA because at the time we thought there would be more attacks or even landings .This did not happen .Now there are parts and pieces laying in the weeds . Yet the major parts remain on the seabed as a memorial .Let's give the country of origin that respect at least !

  • Member since
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  • From: Yorkville, IL
Posted by wolfhammer1 on Thursday, March 5, 2015 10:03 PM

dirkpitt, the book you might be thinking of is called Sea Assault  by captain Joseph Enright of the Archer-fish.

John

  • Member since
    March 2014
Posted by ships4ever on Friday, March 6, 2015 4:14 PM

Yes, I recall reading that there was a specially-built freighter constructed just to haul the turrets from the manufacturer to the shipyard.

From what I read about the wreck it is in pretty bad shape, which is not surprising, considering the incredible pounding it took from bombs and torpedoes. One of the articles also mentioned that there had been some looting of the wreck, which is surprising considering the depth it was found in. If true, it would indicate that someone already knew of the wreck, and had been looting it for quite a while before Allen "found" it.

On the bench: 1/350 Trumpeter HMS Dreadnought; 1/350 Academy USS Reuben James FFG-57

 

  • Member since
    August 2008
Posted by tankerbuilder on Monday, March 9, 2015 4:36 PM

When we talk about these things The Titanic comes to mind .

    Yeah , sure she'll be left alone because she was a grave-site .Uh Huh , Left alone my foot ! ! I hope that these ships being found since are left alone and only their countries of flag know the co-ordinates of their resting places . When Dr. Ballard found the Titanic , they even went so far as putting a plaque in memory of those lost . Now her dishes etc. are showing up at auctions and silverware as well as other stuff . Grave .Yeah , as long as you can't afford to molest her !

     To me even bringing up a dish to sell would be like taking a hammer , smashing the lock and going in the family crypt to get grandpa's pipe and slippers an selling them . Simply  unspeakable !

  • Member since
    July 2013
Posted by DURR on Tuesday, March 10, 2015 4:54 AM

i agree with tankbuilder  and i would also go as far as give punishment for those who molest the ships and remove "collectables"  but i still think that for the sake of history gov. or true historians/scientists should film an photo everything down there BUT no touch

  • Member since
    March 2014
Posted by ships4ever on Tuesday, March 10, 2015 11:43 AM

It would certainly be interesting to see how the torpedo protection system fared. In a book on Axis battleships, (by Friedman, IIRC), it stated that the design of the torpedo protection was insufficient for the Yamato class. Personally, I doubt if any system could have been effective against the aerial onslaught unleashed on the Yamatos, but then again, a survey of wrecks has revealed some surprises, such as the finding that the Bismarck's armor was essentially intact, lending credence to survivor's tales that the ship sank because she was scuttled, not because of damage from British shells and torpedoes. Yes, the upperworks were battered horribly, but the armored raft was basically intact. While I doubt the same can be said for Musashi, there are undoubtedly surprises we would find, and that can be done without disturbing it as a grave site.

On the bench: 1/350 Trumpeter HMS Dreadnought; 1/350 Academy USS Reuben James FFG-57

 

  • Member since
    September 2009
Posted by Echo210 on Wednesday, March 11, 2015 8:36 AM

There will be a 1.5-2 hour live streaming tour of the wreck Thursday evening. Hope this link to his Twitter page works as it has the info for how to watch it.

https://twitter.com/PaulGAllen

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