3D Printing and Modeling: What's in the future for us???

professordeath

Yeah. But those were last week. Gotta get in the weekly 3D printing thread sometime before Saturday.

Borg R3-MC0

professordeath

Yeah. But those were last week. Gotta get in the weekly 3D printing thread sometime before Saturday.

It is one thing to duplicate a part by actually making a mold around that part.  But getting a cad file of a part is something else.  I am certainly not aware of model companies publishing CAD files of the parts in their kit, so I am assuming if you want to make a part you would have to draw the file yourself.  Thus, it seems to me that these printers are of more use to someone doing scratch building than someone wanting to duplicate a part. It is probably easier to make a mold than a 3D CAD file.  I have never heard of a scratch builder being hauled into court on a copyright or patent violation, so I don't think this will be much of an issue.

Is there a technology for a sensor to "read" the demensions of a part and auto generate the drawing? That software, if cheap enough would bridge the gap i suppose..

Im only 31 so I'll wait and see,

You can now use a modified Microsoft Kinect device to scan stuff into 3D files, it requires some programming skills along with the Kinect and an Arduino microcontroller and of course a Makerbot 3D printer. There is a book on Amazon on how to get it working..still might be cheaper and eaier to buy a 2nd kit.

BOOK-Making Things See: 3D vision with Kinect, Processing, Arduino, and MakerBot

I can easily see this revolutionizing the model building hobby! 

I fear change...

Phooey to it...

We've already seen in the past what happened when Sikorsky went nuts over seeing their name on eBay, what's going to happen when we have all the various parts all over the world for nothing?  Being someone who follows the Intellectual Property saga closely and the fits and misfits of the court cases around Trademarks and Copyrights, I can foresee a huge problem on the horizon.

Imagine...  Pirate Ships.. Made-up entirely of pirated parts..

As a modler who casts a lot of parts from existing parts, I'd hate to see a bunch of pirated parts for sale anywhere... Granted, I've given other modelers replacement partslike seats, yokes, cowls, or the occasional figure set or aircraft canopy, which I've cast or vac-formed from original kit parts, but the key word is given ...  I don't charge a nickel for any of them, and generally ask the modler that received the part or parts to "pay it forward"... 

I don't see 3-D printing revolutionizing the industry though... At least, not in my (remaining)modeling life-time..  I think it'll make after-market parts even more expensive as well, at least for the first "generation" of modelers that get involved with it initially... It'll be the modelers that're over 45-50 years old, with lots of disposable income for the stuff, that make the most use of them... 

I DO however, see it as yet one more way for some folks to "buy" the Gold Medal at contests... And that it will drive the final nail into the Gizmologist's coffin... Hell, even now many modelers are using so much after-market in their builds that nobody even bothers to scratch-build or kit-bash anymore, and the "Oohs & Ahhs" just keep coming.. Contest Judges are starting to forget that "Scope of Effort" even existed as a major part of the judging criteria...

That said...

The only "good" I can see coming from the technology is that maybe some heretofore unavailable kits will be easy to get, and companies that utilize it will offer kits at far cheaper prices, since the mold-making process would be virtually nil when compared to what it costs today to make new molds... If they offer 1/35th M1008/M1009 CUCVs for 25.00, or 1/48 GMC or M35A2 Duece & a Halfs and staff cars for 15.00, then I'm all for it! 

But, they'll probably try to recover the costs of the printers with the first couple kit releases...

Phooey to it...

In my interview with Valdimir from Eduard, he believes that it won't be as popular as many think. The cost of the printers has come down, but really good ones are still very pricey. Couple that with the cost of the software necessary to create the 3D drawings, most will shy away from them both.

The comments by the rivet counters out there will only compound when their peers start producing parts and assemblies on 3D printers of lower quality versus those high end that major manufacturers are using such as Eduard.

Sure the younger generation will be more computer savvy, but unless the cost of software comes down and is intuitive to use, I see but a handful of modelers jumping into 3D printing. I see no more than the same number who are now producing aftermarket resin bits today.

Comparing something such as a VCR or CD player to a 3D printer isn't the same. VCR/CD players are purchased by millions of people, where as something specialized such as a 3D has appeal to only those with an interest in such things.

The consumables a 3D printer uses also needs to be factored in, such as toner or ink does for a conventional printer.

In a society that continues to demand more turnkey or having things ready made or done for them, we've seen first hand its impact on scale modeling. So, I don't see 3D printing becoming a mass rage.

Unless...at some point you can email a someone a birthday or anniversary greeting and the 3D printer produces the gift "on the spot."  Again here too, cost of operating the machine comes into play.

Remember fax machines? Those who had them soon learned that they were expensive to operate...unsolicited faxes caused mfrs to produce plain paper units with preview capability before printing so owners could screen the faxes before printing them. I can remember opening the hardware store and finding a 25' roll of paper sprawled across the floor in the office after the fax machine ran all night long printing faxes...some wanted but most just sales solicitations.The machine beeping demanding to be refilled with more paper. Thermal paper gave way to inkjet and laser types. Now many use online fax services.

3D will no doubt in my mind follow a similar course.

My apology if this video has been pointed out before, but I haven't read the other threads on 3D printing. www.youtube.com/watch I love watching it. Anyway, to an extent, I think it IS fair to compare 3D scanners/printers to VCRs, etc. Not only modelers can use them. I think proffesional model makers would use them, like for models of buildings and structures. How about toy collectors? Being a collector of some '60s and '70s toy lines, heck yeah! I can think of all sorts of non 1/12 scale stuff that a lot of folks, myself include, would love to scan, scale up or down to 1/12 for my Major Matt Mason collection. Likewise for 1/6 for GI Joe collectors. How about a really hard to find toy and a collector doesn't care if it's a repro? I'm not such a diehard but I'll take a repro over none at all most any time. Same for plastic models. Restoration people, of all things. No, I think there's a much bigger market than some think, espcially when the prices drop. I remember 30 years ago when i bought my first VHS VCR from Sears, on sale, for $425. Now I think they're about 5% of that if you can find them. About 15 years ago when I got online via WebTV, for about $300 including the wireless keyboard, I think they're worthless now. I quickly found out I HAD to have a printer. the cheapest I found was a Canon of some sort at Walmart for about $110. Now printers are all over for what, $25 or so? Give 'em a few years and most of us will have 3D scanners/printerss next to our workbenches.

Heh.. I'm hearing, "Computer... Build Model Tank.. 1/35th scale... Panzer IV Ausf H... Painted. 1st SS Panzer Division, LAH, circa September 1943, medium weathering. Add crew figures.. Painted.. External Stowage for five crew.."...

POOF! Off to the IPMS show!

We really do need to preserve "modeling" as we know it. There is a potential to skip past the work with this technology.

Heh.. I said the same thing about after-market parts vs scratch-building years ago.. Sure enough, it came to pass.. Seems that the majority of modelers out there won't even attempt to scratch-build, and others that used to have stopped..  And why should they scratch-build details when they can buy the stuff off the rack?  

Even teenage beginners can conceivably walk away with the Gold now.. Why bother spending years learning how to make what you need?

Gawd, I feel like such a dinosaur.. I can really relate to the "Old Guard" and how they felt about them new-fangled injection-molded kits now..

Hans von Hammer

We really do need to preserve "modeling" as we know it. There is a potential to skip past the work with this technology.

Heh.. I said the same thing about after-market parts vs scratch-building years ago.. Sure enough, it came to pass.. Seems that the majority of modelers out there won't even attempt to scratch-build, and others that used to have stopped..  And why should they scratch-build details when they can buy the stuff off the rack?  

Even teenage beginners can conceivably walk away with the Gold now.. Why bother spending years learning how to make what you need?

Gawd, I feel like such a dinosaur.. I can really relate to the "Old Guard" and how they felt about them new-fangled injection-molded kits now..

I maintain that someone who is a good scratch builder will beat someone who isn't, even if both use aftermarket detail parts.  I do both.  When a kit is not available of something I really want to build, I will scratch the basic structure.  However, it is nice to use aftermarket details.  I am not a masachist.  I'll save the effort for the basic structure.  I use computers a lot in my scratch building, do resin casting for multiple parts- even bought a do-it-yourself PE making set from Micro Mark. But if resin or PE details ARE available, I'll use them.

Reminds me of the rules that until recently were in place for scratchbuilt category at Manitow- even the rigging parts (blocks, belaying pins, etc.) had to be scratched.  No one said the modeler had to grow their own cotton and spin their own thread, thank god. I believe those rules have been relaxed a bit.

Seems to me an affordable 3D printer is just a tool for scratch builders.

it is a tad more complicated than the star trek replicators. good 3d software in not cheap plus the learning curve. the material for the printing is another expense.  and the 3D scanner if you are not designing/drawing the part in CAD. i built a PZ-IIG years ago in 3D taking dimensions from the tamiya kit and it is a whole different thought process and skill set. i don't think the ordinary modeler is going to be doing this just like the ordinay modeler does not do his own PE.

waynec

it is a tad more complicated than the star trek replicators. good 3d software in not cheap plus the learning curve. the material for the printing is another expense.  and the 3D scanner if you are not designing/drawing the part in CAD. i built a PZ-IIG years ago in 3D taking dimensions from the tamiya kit and it is a whole different thought process and skill set. i don't think the ordinary modeler is going to be doing this just like the ordinay modeler does not do his own PE.

^^^ this

waynec

it is a tad more complicated than the star trek replicators. good 3d software in not cheap plus the learning curve. the material for the printing is another expense.  and the 3D scanner if you are not designing/drawing the part in CAD. i built a PZ-IIG years ago in 3D taking dimensions from the tamiya kit and it is a whole different thought process and skill set. i don't think the ordinary modeler is going to be doing this just like the ordinay modeler does not do his own PE.

Agreed entirely.

I'm a sculptor/scratchbuilder who has also been using 3D CAD software for the past 12-15 years, and I can say without question that there is a real learning curve, and an absolutely dedicated skillset one needs for 3D modeling that does not directly translate from physical skills. I would say that the amount of work that an aspiring builder would need to perform to recreate any given piece or part effectively would be a serious obstacle to anyone who is not absolutely dedicated to mastering the particular software involved.




 

Most of the 3D scanners I am aware of are likely not adequate for good modeling work.  Company I used to work at started a project one time to make 3D scanners for scupturers.  Eventually gave up.  It is expensive to get good accuracy at a reasonable price.  If laser and you are using TOF, the timing has to be ridulously fast.  Triangulation needs really precise angle accuracy.

I think think one can imagine several plausible scenarios for 3d printing.

1) everybody has a 3d printer in their homes. The whole industrial and distribution process is changed. Not only for models but also for jewelry, electronics, food (yes they are working 3d food printers) etc etc. So if you need a new bowl, just download a design and print it.

2) high capacity 3d printers come available but stay expensive. So printer owners operate in a Shapeway model. They are the marketplace for designers and customers. Plus they distribute the product. Starting a company becomes easy since you only have to design stuff, the printer company makes and distributes your product.

3) ...

I would think there are two main variables. Firstly does the high end printing  technology become cheaper. Secondly does the designing technology (software, 3d scanning, etc) become cheap and acceable. Just put these two variables in a two by two matrix and you have got 4 possible scenario's.

I maintain that someone who is a good scratch builder will beat someone who isn't, even if both use aftermarket detail parts.  I do both.  When a kit is not available of something I really want to build, I will scratch the basic structure.  However, it is nice to use aftermarket details.  I am not a masachist.  I'll save the effort for the basic structure.  I use computers a lot in my scratch building, do resin casting for multiple parts- even bought a do-it-yourself PE making set from Micro Mark. But if resin or PE details ARE available, I'll use them.

That's not what I'm talking about, Don.. It's more like me not being very happy when a guy loses-out to a cherry modeler, one who's only been in the hobby for a couple years, but thanks to the plethora of AM detail parts, builds with his wallet and not his own modeling skills..  The ever elusive, often ignored "Scope of Effort" judging criteria doen't get met that way, IMHO.. 

 I've seen too many dioramas (That's the only category I judge in) that weren't even complete win, even after I pointed out the flaws to the other judges.. Cropping tails, structures and kits parallell to edges, unfinished structure interiors with windiws or open sides, figures running every which way instead of away or towards the "enemy in the distance", poor or no story-line etc.. They were just BIG doioramas, with multiple kits and lost to smaller, complete, and excellent "one model" dios..

But I digress

They haven't "made their bones" yet, IMNSHO...( Hence, the "Monogram Mafia" was born, lol..)

That's why I made the "Star-Trek Replicator" post..   I know we won't live to actually see  it, but I do foresee it one day, maybe in the 23rd century.. Home replicators at afforable prices.. Might be that one would forego programming by then, and just buy the disc (ir whatever ROM thing they have) of 101 German AFVs-1939 - 1945...

Disclaimer: There WAS a bit of a rant there, but this post is largely "tongue-in-cheek"... 

I still see the stumbling block of having the original part to scan/create. As others have stated 3d computer modeling is intensive and time consuming. If you have the original part and just want to reproduce more of them that can be done now. However if you do not have an original you will either have to fabricate one physically or digitally.

Besides where is the joy of creation if you are just mashing some buttons and a computer is doing the work?

...you are just mashing some buttons and a computer is doing the work...

Some would call that "creating".. Sadly, I don't see the need for "instant graification" going away as technology progresses..  I expect to see much more of that condition.. MUCH more..

Big_Dog

I still see the stumbling block of having the original part to scan/create. As others have stated 3d computer modeling is intensive and time consuming. If you have the original part and just want to reproduce more of them that can be done now. However if you do not have an original you will either have to fabricate one physically or digitally.

Besides where is the joy of creation if you are just mashing some buttons and a computer is doing the work?

I have only tried a little 3D CAD, but I assume it will be like 2D CAD as far as a learning curve.  I taught myself CAD just for modeling. First few projects took forever, but I gradually came up to speed (yeah, a shallowlearning curve is the hard one- a steep learning curve means it is easy to learn!).  Anyway, if I really get interested in 3D CAD I'd pick up a 3D package.  Scratch builders generally need to do some drafting anyway, if it is really a scratch project, even if that drafting is resizing someone else's drawings.

Some folks get lot of satisfaction in planning a project, doing the references, etc., and the drafting if it is a scratch project.  Others are specialists in painting (I suspect color choices in 3D printing will not be adequate for scale models.

The same kind of thing has been said about plastic kits.  Old timers who built wood "solid models" criticize current plastic models as just assembling a bunch of preformed parts, not shaping all those parts like we had to do in "the good old days."

I looked at solid wood models as an entirely different medium and seperate genre (much like RC models  and the "stick & tissue" kits) of scale modeling...  

Just to be clear I have no problems with computer modeling. I have done 3d modeling for a flight sim in the past and some skin work. I consider both on par with modeling; they require skills although some of them are different ones. My comment was more directed at the scan an item and then have the 3d printer produce it. That is not really doing much of anything in my opinion that is having the computer do it.

i1028.photobucket.com/.../3dba49d6d3b3.jpg

It is still possible for a human to create 3-D art. I'm just sayin

waynec

 good 3d software in not cheap

Are you sure? Blender is used for Animation and 3D art.... and it's free. Sure it's very hard to learn, but some major animation studios use it.

Once someone works out a way to print Google Sketchup models, (another freebie) that will open up an easy way to create 3D shapes.

"No photo it didn't happen" is a rule I see all to often when folks keep yaking! I haven't seen anything useful from theses machines that solved a problem outside of the manufacturing relm. Although it is a modeler who actually takes his idea and shows proof of concept. 3-D? Give it up!!!

But just a 3D CAD program may not be enough.  It needs to be compatible with the printer software.  Also, just the CAD file may not be enough.  Many CAM systems need a conversion software that converts the CAD files into CAM instruction files, and it is often not just a simple file conversion, but includes some user input.  Now, those 3D printers are not conventional CAM, so maybe those conversion programs won't be needed, but still the CAD files must be compatible with the printer software. I hope they don't require DXF files- AutoCAD is quite expensive!

Sound Great. I agree