Tha General Lee , Ironclads and Figures

"They absolutely did. The power to compel a person to purchase a good (health insurance) in order to remain a citizen in good standing (in compliance with law) was not even upheld by the court, it was injected into the government's argument by the court itself - the government was actually arguing against it - so long as the penalty is considered a tax. This actually happened, and not long ago."

There are legitimate arguments on both sides of that issue. (The dissenting justices made that clear.) But that's hardly "unlimited power."

Nor is it, as some people have contended, the first time the U.S. government has compelled people to buy something. The Militia Act of 1792 required every able-bodied adult male to "provide himself with a good musket or firelock, a sufficient bayonet and belt, two spare flints, and a knapsack, a pouch, with a box therein, to contain not less than twenty four cartridges, suited to the bore of his musket or firelock, each cartridge to contain a proper quantity of powder and ball; or with a good rifle, knapsack, shot-pouch, and powder-horn, twenty balls suited to the bore of his rifle, and a quarter of a pound of powder; and shall appear so armed, accoutred and provided, when called out to exercise or into service" in the militia - which every able-bodied adult male citizen was required to join.

To get back closer to model building - I confess I feel sorry for the Finnish Air Force. During WWII its main wing and fuselage insignia was a pale blue swastika on a white disk. (The swastika in Finnish tradition had nothing to do with Nazism.) The model companies feel obliged to sell Finnish versions of kits with all sorts of strange markings - crosses, plain white disks, whatever.

I recently read an article in Aeroplane Monthly (great magazine) about the Finnish Air Force in WWII. Those pilots - and ground crews - performed remarkable feats - usually with inferior equipment (e.g., Brewster Buffaloes). The article pointed out that on a list of the top-scoring aces of WWII, Germany (of course) had the most. Finland was second. I didn't know that.

I wonder whether any court in any of the "no swastika" countries has actually ruled specifically on the subject of historical decals in model kits. If so, I haven't heard about it. I suspect the kit manufacturers are just playing it safe.

GMorrison

Sprue you are right, but that's been changed in the Constitution.

What I do predict is next is a revision of some of the other out-of date Amendments in the Bill of Rights.

jtilley

...........To get back closer to model building - I confess I feel a little sorry for the Finnish Air Force. During WWII its main wing and fuselage insignia was a pale blue swastika on a white disk. (The swastika in Finnish tradition had nothing to do with Nazism.) The model companies feel obliged to sell Finnish versions of kits with all sorts of strange markings - crosses, plain white disks, whatever.

I wonder whether any court in any of the "no swastika" countries has actually ruled specifically on the subject of historical decals in model kits. If so, I haven't heard about it. I suspect the kit manufacturers are just playing it safe.

ajd3530

....................

The thing that irks me is that people correlate battle flag with the KKK. Go look up pictures of a Klan rally, and the American flag probably outnumbers the battle flag 20 to 1.

Regarding possible obsolescence in the Bill or Rights, I nominate this clause of the Seventh Amendment:

"In Suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved...."

Twenty dollars? Not being trained in the law, I honestly don't know whether a person - today - could demand a jury trial when he sued somebody for twenty-five dollars. My guess is there are ways around it.

Personally, I think the Bill of Rights could do with some tweaking and clarification. But I hesitate to suggest that seriously because, frankly, I don't have any confidence in our current crop of government officials to do it in an intelligent manner.

jtilley

............Personally, I think the Bill of Rights could do with some tweaking and clarification. But I hesitate to suggest that seriously because, frankly, I don't have any confidence in our current crop of government officials to do it in an intelligent manner.

Not to worry..................I'm sure someone important will tell us which of our rights is unnecessary.

And to think that some back then didn't even want to add a Bill of Rights..................

ajd3530

On the flip side,........................

Did you grow up when vinyl LPs were king? 

I did. 

If the confederate army was made up of just slave owners the civil war would of been over in 6 months.

It was made up of men that loved their states more than they did a federal government. Farm boys that were lucky to have two mule's let alone  a slave.

 Do we forget about our past because it offends some one. Do we not talk about the 4th of July to an Englishmen for fear of offending him. I think many have forgotten our past, a past that came from rebellion against  a government that we felt was telling us what we could and could not do.

   HAPPY  4th JULY AMERICA

I can't help wondering if airbrushes cause as many arguments.
.

Happy 4th of July!  

Armyguy

If the confederate army was made up of just slave owners the civil war would of been over in 6 months.

It was made up of men that loved their states more than they did a federal government. Farm boys that were lucky to have two mule's let alone  a slave.

 Do we forget about our past because it offends some one. Do we not talk about the 4th of July to an Englishmen for fear of offending him. I think many have forgotten our past, a past that came from rebellion against  a government that we felt was telling us what we could and could not do.

   HAPPY  4th JULY AMERICA

 

ajd3530

I have no problem with people being offended by the battle flag. I understand why some might be. But at the same time, I am personally offended when I see two dudes make out in public. But I'm not going to sign a petition to get them to stop, because by God, thats their right to do if they want to, and I respect that.

The thing that irks me is that people correlate battle flag with the KKK. Go look up pictures of a Klan rally, and the American flag probably outnumbers the battle flag 20 to 1.

This'll sort itself out.

 The confederate flag represents a group of people who attacked a federal installation without provocation 2 months before Lincoln took office. They attempted to destroy the union by permitting secession at will. They were lead by officers who broke their oaths of commission in the United States Army. They began their secession almost as soon as the last popular ballots were cast and months before Lincoln took office or the congress was sworn in, essentially trying to destroy the country because they were mad about losing the election. And the right those states' rights guys were afraid of losing? Yeah, slavery. As to having the flag over public spaces and pl;acing statues of the generals anywhere unrelated to a battle field or museum...picture London with a statue of Napoleon in Trafalgar Square or William Wallace in front of Parliament.

The General Lee is no more part of history than Blue Thunder of the Haunted Tank. It's an icon of a pretty poorly made show from the 70's whose main asset was a pair of shorts. No government agency has said you as an individual cannot display any flag you want, though private entities may do that. What some states have said is that the flag should no longer be displayed on public grounds.

Some have made the comment that it didn't bother anyone until now. Well, for those of us who look like the vast majority of modelers, we have not had the history of repression. And yes, ask your black friends if the constant display of the confederate flag is not disconcerting.

And, no, the blue cross on a red field is not the 1st, 2nd or 3rd national flag of the confederacy but it has become for generations teh symbolic flag of, as the real general Lee might was wont to say, "those people."

In short, had the confederates won even a negotiated peace, there would be no United States of America as we know her today. Secession at will whenever a state or region didn't like the results of an election would have the United States fragmented and weak. I suspect Mexico would have reclaimed Texas, new mexico, Nevada, Colorado and Arizona with the help of the Commanches and Apaches. California would have left with Oregon and Washington state. The great plains and the rest of the Canadian border states would have been the target of Great Britain who would have found allies with the plains Indians who were more welcome in the Grandmother's Land. In any of these Delaware, Maryland, Missouri and Kentucky would have likely seen this as a chance to keep its (gasp!) slaves and joined the confederacy. The capitol would have been forced back to Philly of New York.

What ever happened to tankerbuilder? 

IT'S ALL HIS FAULT!!!

LOL..........

GMorrison

IT'S ALL HIS FAULT!!!

Nice!

Since some Dingle-Berries think the the only thing the Flag stands for is slavery......There is more behind it.

"In modern times, many Southerners still continue to use the flag, as they believe it represents the distinct development and uniqueness of the Southern culture. They believe it's a part of their right to free speech and expression. However, the collateral damage the Confederate flag being displayed, is that some feel disrespected and racially targeted. Symbols of the Confederacy, are still in use and have become an issue of dispute, which crops up every now and then across the United States. In the 1990s, many Southern state legislatures attempted to allow the use of the Confederate flag as a part of its political and civic heritage, since they consider it a part of the American history and do not view the flag as a representation of racism or any form of superiority."

-Buzzle.com (History Site) by Rohini Mohan

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The original flag of the Confederacy was not what we know as the Confederate flag today. It was the Stars and Bars, a flag that looked extremely similar to the U.S. flag. While Southerners did want to abandon the Union, they were reluctant to abandon their flag. The only problem was that in a battle they could not tell which flag was U.S. and which was Confederate, leading to some obvious problems.

The solution was the creation of two flags, one as the battle flag, and one the parade flag. The battle flag that was adopted is what we now know as the Confederate flag, the only difference being that it was square, not rectangle. The battle flag gained widespread popularity and was later incorporated into a new national Confederate parade flag.

After the war, organizations like the United Daughters of the Confederacy adopted the flag as their symbol. While the battle flag was never the national symbol of the Confederacy, it has come to be recognized as such.

White Southerners saw the flag as a symbol of heritage and dignity. The “good old boy” connotations are attributed to Ole Miss football games and to distinguish Southern troops during WWII from their Northern counterparts. As for hate groups like the Ku Klux Klan, they did use the flag, but they did not give it its blatantly racist connotation. That emerged during the integration of Southern universities.

You can also blame the Dixiecrats for the racist implications of the Confederate flag. The Dixiecrats were a party made up of anti-integration college students who co-opted the flag as their standard. The image of Dixiecrats fighting the National Guard while waving Confederate flags became branded into the national psyche. And so, the flag became tied to racism."

-The Elm Washington College

Guess we weren't the only ones talking about the DOH Charger:

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2015/06/feel-general-lees-confederate-flag/

I get all my History from Rohini Mohan LOLs.

I'll got with Washington College's take.

Name calling sucks by the way.

Both General Lee posts are "neck and neck" .in the stretch and we still haven't heard if anyone likes orange Dodge Chargers or prefers another colour................

.

I had a Plymouth Duster, it was a metallic Cinnamon color. No love whatsoever for that car.

I knew someone who owned a Chevrolet Citation X-11 but he was very unhappy with it.

As I recall, I do not remember anyone who was happy with an American car design from that era.

Will tankerbuilder recognize this thread when he next views it? 

A great discussion thread but I'm gonna end my convos here with IBTL. :)

There is  point here Morrison...  I thought that was a decent article, especially considering this woman is OBVIOUSLY not from the US.  I thought it was obvious that I was proving a point by citing her.  She is an award-winning journalist from India.  Having a view point from a person who probably is least likely to swing to the right or left seemed prudent.

I also thought Washington College's explanation was well put too.

About the Dingle-berry, my apologies.   You are correct there was no need for that.   I feel if someone sees the Stars & Bars as just a symbol of slavery they really are not seeing the entire picture.  There really is more behind it.  As far as removing from Federal ground, I get that.  However when Dukes of Hazzard is bombed....   which makes no sense to me at all considering there were no racist actions in it.  In fact the Sheriff from the other county was a Black fellow.  Met him at the Portland Roadster show and got a signed pic.  He said the show was the most fun he ever had in his career.

It just is going too far.  If we all went by this ideal then we should ban any English flags.  After all people are saying the Star & Bars are a symbol of oppression.  In that case the old English colors are a sign of oppression too.  Considering that's how many of us ended up in America in the First place.   Oppressed by the British.  But oh no, there is a different set of rules there.

Valid points there Cody. I was going to mention Union Jack going back to the colonial times too. It's funny and sad to say the least that folks forget our 13 original colonies were under British rule. Lets not forget about the War of 1812, too. Funny how folks get a knee jerk over trivial/controversial subjects of our nation's history.

Thanks Cody, and I threw a couple mud balls too.

My appreciation of the South Carolina situation is that it's State ground, not Federal ground. It's been contentious there for a long time. Events have tipped the balance, and as became obvious here, a lot of pent up emotion has been released.

The CNN poll has been completely distorted. It's results fall pretty much in line with the editorial in the Elm. A majority of people in this country probably do recognize that the flag is a symbol of Southern pride. That is much different though than what someone said here- and I get the threads confused- that "they" i.e. a majority of people polled "look at it fondly as a symbol". Heck, I would have answered yes to the first, but a very emphatic no to the second.

I'd politely take issue with your position that people protesting it's display on State ground  "only" or "just" see it as a symbol of slavery. Maybe, but in fairness and the poll supports this, slavery is among the things people see. Did slavery exist as an institution under earlier versions of our national flag? Yes? Did it get eradicated under that same flag? Yes. Was that a painful process? Of course. But that legitimizes the flag. Pledge of Allegiance here, please.

The CSA went down swinging over the concept. And hearing comments as we do like "the South will rise again" scares the heck out of people used to being discriminated against.

It was raised over the SC State House  for the single reason of being a single digit response to school integration, and that's the context in which it now gets judged. Even the excuse "anniversary of the war" gives that away. The war, the one fought to keep slavery. And that is in black and white in the document I linked earleir.

Citizens of SC got it right, their Governor got it right, and it's go away to the museum where they think it belongs.

The model car thing is stupid. but then corporate think usually is. It probably makes that model much more popular than it ever deserves to be.

I am emphatic about sticking this conversation out as a history reader. Politics aside, sometimes it feels like either on the radio or cable, historic facts just get so mutilated that nothing makes sense any more.