Tojo72

Here is another interesting one

 

The Battle for Castle Itter was fought in the Austrian North Tyrol village of Itter on 5 May 1945, in the last days of the European Theater of World War II.

Troops of the 23rd Tank Battalion of the 12th Armored Division of the US XXI Corps led by Captain John C. "Jack" Lee, Jr., a number of Wehrmacht soldiers led by Major Josef "Sepp" Gangl, SS-Hauptsturmführer Kurt-Siegfried Schrader, and recently freed French prisoners of war defended Castle Itter against an attacking force from the 17th SS Panzergrenadier Division until relief from the American 142nd Infantry Regiment of the 36th Division of XXI Corps arrived.

The French prisoners included former prime ministers, generals and a tennis star. It is the only known time during the war in which Americans and Germans fought side by side. Popular accounts of the battle have called it the strangest battle of World War II.^[4]

 

As for you, Carlos, point taken and I stand behind Ronald Reagan as a competent POTUS.

Snarky to put me down like that but ships have been named for living politicians since the USN was created.

Dont like a choice, fine.

USS John Calhoun?

  Bill

Glamdring

 

 

Gamera

Well as I keep building Japanese paper projects I've thought about linking them together in some sort of fictional history. 

Maybe Dr. Robert Oppenheimer terrified of handing the world another horrible new weapon sabotaged the Trinity A-bomb project. Soon the other scientists and engineers found the problem but still the confidence in the project had eroded among the 'brass hats' enough they decided to push ahead with Operation Olympic- the invasion of the Japanese home islands. Which lead to a lot of Japanese paper projects to be build and oddball Allied weapons like the T28 to enter service. 

 

 

 

 

 

One of the last books I finished was called MacArthur's War: A Novel of the Invasion of Japan by Douglas Niles and Michael Dobson.  The premise was that during fast tracked atom bomb testing, the uranium accidently went off and took out the majority of the scientists while "tickling the dragon."  This left no option but to invade Japan, with the US using MacArthur's plan retaking the Philippines and going for the home islands, rather than the Navy's island hopping strategy.

The same duo also wrote two novels featuring Erwin Rommel surviving the purge after the successful assassination of Hitler in the bomb plot, surrenduring the Wehrmacht to the US, and then teaming with the Western Allies against the SS units and then eventual Russian expansion.  Therein lies the fun of alternate history, anything can happen!

 

Thanks!!! Now that's interesting. I'll have to look up 'MacArthur's War.'

Another good read on the 1945/1946 Japan scenario is The Burning Mountain. Basicly the plot line goes that the July 1945 Trinity A-Bomb test is scuppered by a lightning strike, so the invasion of Japan is on. The book skips over the Operation Olympic invasion of Kyūshū in fall 1945 and goes to the late winter/spring 1946 Operation Coronet invasion of Honshu. The author used existing plans by the US and Japanese military for his outline, and created multiple sub plots and characters for the up close and personal side of the tale. 

stikpusher

Another good read on the 1945/1946 Japan scenario is The Burning Mountain. Basicly the plot line goes that the July 1945 Trinity A-Bomb test is scuppered by a lightning strike, so the invasion of Japan is on. The book skips over the Operation Olympic invasion of Kyūshū in fall 1945 and goes to the late winter/spring 1946 Operation Coronet invasion of Honshu. The author used existing plans by the US and Japanese military for his outline, and created multiple sub plots and characters for the up close and personal side of the tale. 

 

Ohhhhhh, sounds good! I'll have to give this a look too- thanks!

Mates, can we stop comming up with interesting books to read? I've got models to build, but I'm a sucker for a good book and now I'm going to have to hunt down the titles mentioned in this thread. Thank the Gods for retirement.

Dodgy

Mates, can we stop comming up with interesting books to read? I've got models to build, but I'm a sucker for a good book and now I'm going to have to hunt down the titles mentioned in this thread. Thank the Gods for retirement. 

You need to take a closer look at GM's signature

Dodgy

Mates, can we stop comming up with interesting books to read? I've got models to build, but I'm a sucker for a good book and now I'm going to have to hunt down the titles mentioned in this thread. Thank the Gods for retirement.

My only problem with it is that the second platoon leader keeps dying; and I was the second platoon leader as a lieutenant, of course, many years after he wrote the book though. But I'm like, dude, why you keep killing me?

Hi all:

I too like to build Luft '46 plane models and have several in my biult rosta - 2 piloted versions of a V-2, Gotha P.60, He Lerche vertical take-off, Aredo 555 Amerika Bomber, among them.  I also created an invented concept aircraft by scratch building two kits into one aircraft - a He 219UHU and a Go 229 Horton.  I figured that if the Germans can come up with wierd stuff, then why not me.  I am always fascinated by the Germans shooting themselves in foot by their over-reliance on technology and cleverness.  This contrasted to American approach of mass produced nuts and bolts but reliable tanks and aircraft.

Alan

Hey Rob, thats just plain unsociable, killing you of like that. I'd put in a complaint to the management! I have read Team Yankee a couple of times, its a good story.

alanp

 I am always fascinated by the Germans shooting themselves in foot by their over-reliance on technology and cleverness.  This contrasted to American approach of mass produced nuts and bolts but reliable tanks and aircraft.

 

No, that's a pretty thorough summary.

I am in the minority who think that the "myth" of German equipment superiority is just that.

Look at their infantry field fit. Jack boots! Bolt action rifle, not gas operated. Wool uniforms. Leather web gear. Of course all that changed as they went along.

Bill

GMorrison

No, that's a pretty thorough summary.

I am in the minority who think that the "myth" of German equipment superiority is just that.

Look at their infantry field fit. Jack boots! Bolt action rifle, not gas operated. Wool uniforms. Leather web gear. Of course all that changed as they went along.

Bill

 

The British army also had wool uniforms and a bolt action rifle as standard. The British web gear of WW2 was similar to the 56 pattern gear i was first issued with and that was a real nightmare, especially when wet.

As with many things, the Germans of WW2 seem to get opinions from both ends. There are those who believe all their kit was better than everyone else. And those who dismiss everything they did and had out of hand. Of course, the truth is some where in the middle. Some of their kit was better than other nations, some not and some just as good. But as every nation, the German equipped themselves with what suited them.

GMorrison

 

Look at their infantry field fit. Jack boots! Bolt action rifle, not gas operated. Wool uniforms. Leather web gear. Of course all that changed as they went along.

 

I seem to recall that Team Yankee (which I thoroughly enjoyed) was set within the East/West conflict as set out in the earlier book "The Third World War" by General Sir John Hackett (and others).  Hackett had commanded an Airborne brigade at Arnhem, and went on to hold several senior NATO posts. 

This book was a warning to the politicians of the West of what might have happened in such a war, if the West's defence policies & budget allocations continued to decrease the strength of NATO forces - peace was only restored after a limited nuclear exchange, graphically described and, in my view, extremely unlikely to stop at the destruction of two major cities.   I read it avidly, several times when it was first published, and my 15-year-old self even understood most of the politics it contained!

It fired an interest in me, in current military subjects (hitherto mostly restricted to WWII).  I don't know how much it helped the cause, though...

GreySnake

 

 

GMorrison

 

Look at their infantry field fit. Jack boots! Bolt action rifle, not gas operated. Wool uniforms. Leather web gear. Of course all that changed as they went along.

 

 

 

 

I would not say the bolt action rifle Kar98k was a negative for the German military. The German tactical doctrine based a squad’s firepower around the machine gun and the rifleman’s main roles were to carry ammunition and provide covering fire for the machine gunners. The Kar98k worked very well for this role and it being bolt action was not seen as a negative as the MG34 and MG42 had a very high rate of fire and the disadvantage of a bolt action rifle wasn’t really a factor. Not to mention it’s a fantastic rifle battle accurate up to 600m.

 

But like everyone else, the Wehr started with WW1 ships, pretty basic aircraft, the afore mentioned personal equipment and a LOT of horses.

I just think sometimes observers get carried away thinking that the Reich had superior technology, because they really didn't. And yes, it's the truth, you fight with what you have.

I knew a guy who served in the German Army 1943- 1945. He was a telemetry engineer. We belonged to a Volkswagen sedan club together. He could get a good 500,000 miles out of one. Change the engine every 100K, the transaxle every 300K.

Guy loved to drive. After a few beers it was always all about how they lost the war because their part inventory system has 12 digits and the allies only had 8 or 9. Just a funny perspective, that's all.

Bill

Ah ha!  Alternative history.  Well now, this is a very interesting subject.  Several years ago I purchased a Zoukei Mura "Shinden".  Can you imagine this crazy looking Imperial Japanese airforce aircraft if it actually made it into real action.  What if?  And that's a big what if, (Alternative History) the Japanese mass produced this push pull conceptual aircraft into full on production in the late 1930's only to be used in the sneak attack of Pearl Harbor of where Mrs. Toshi and I hail from, on December of 7, 1941 Sunday 7:00am!  Wow!!!

Zoukie Mura also sold a aftermarket set with PE that changed the "Shinden" kit into, you really want to know?  A jet fighter!  It looks absolutely something from the Robotech universe in which the Japanese excelled in this storm that has taken the world over twice in the anime genre!  

Talk about alternative history.  Lol!  From what I've read, after the fall of the Japanese Empire all military equipment were boxed up and shipped back to the US.  Somewhere in the Smithsonian Institute (Just like the ending of one of the Indiana Jones movies where the "Ark of Covnent" sits in a highly classified store house) sits a "Shinden" that's slowly falling apart due to neglect and age.  

Growing up in Honolulu, Hawaii, I recall as a youth seeing in science magazines, National Geographic, PBS Television in that a new type of aircraft with no mention of the "Shinden" was being built.  Can anyone say Push Pull?  LOL!  Alternative History you say!  Lol!

Your friend's, Toshi & Ezra

P.S.  This sir is a very cool subject to create a discussions on!  Thank you very much sir for creating such an opportunity and allowing FSM Forum members to join in on the rhetoric and expanding on something I believe strongly in; "Imagination".  For without that, one could never invent something for mankind, for the cause of good use or bad use.  

Oh, I forgot to add (please excuse my memory it's the TBI) that the Germans were first in the push pull aircraft that actually was utilized in WWII.  The "Swallow" or Phiel.  Did I spell that correctly?  If not, I appolagize.  Am I correct to say that once an American fighter pilot in a P-51 Mustang saw a "Swallow" and tried to pursue the Phiel only to discover to his horror that the Phiel literally took off at a very high speed and rate of climb that it was impossible for his P-51 to catch up to this strange looking aircraft.

But that's another future Zoukei Mura kit that I'd like to build.  If I'm correct it's a 1/32 monstrosity.  Very expensive and I want to purchase every single Zoukei Mura aftermarket parts including PE.  My Tamiya "Swallow" got Swallowed up by Ezra!  Lol!  You gotta love him.  At least Mrs. Toshi and I do, we spoil him severely and we will go to the ends of the earth for him, anyway one day, he was talking jibberish.  All I heard was something about a "Papas" backwards airplane and a crash.  I was worried that something fell on my beloved Ezra or he got hurt from falling.  He was scared that I would scold him for the "Swallow" that fell.  

I gave him a big smile and hugged him and told him that we can both, together build a new one.  With that in his mind he then said I'm hungry!  Lol!  So it was lunch time and his favorite meal is Chippy or better known as chips!  So he gets his favorite Lunchables nachos which comes with a drink and a Twix chocolate candy bar of which he consumes first!  Lol!

Your friend's, Toshi and Ezra

GMorrison

 

 

GreySnake

 

 

GMorrison

 

Look at their infantry field fit. Jack boots! Bolt action rifle, not gas operated. Wool uniforms. Leather web gear. Of course all that changed as they went along.

 

 

 

 

I would not say the bolt action rifle Kar98k was a negative for the German military. The German tactical doctrine based a squad’s firepower around the machine gun and the rifleman’s main roles were to carry ammunition and provide covering fire for the machine gunners. The Kar98k worked very well for this role and it being bolt action was not seen as a negative as the MG34 and MG42 had a very high rate of fire and the disadvantage of a bolt action rifle wasn’t really a factor. Not to mention it’s a fantastic rifle battle accurate up to 600m.

 

 

 

But like everyone else, the Wehr started with WW1 ships, pretty basic aircraft, the afore mentioned personal equipment and a LOT of horses.

 

 

Bill

 

The only WW1 major warships the Germans had in 1939 were the 3 Pre Dreadnought ships of the first Deutschland class. The only large warships still under construction in 39 were the 2 Bismarck class and the Eugen. All the rest were already in service. Not bad given the restrictions of Versaille. As for pretty basic aircraft, that makes it sound as though they were behind everyone else. But there fighters were amongst the best in the world at the time, their bombers were about average for the period and they certainly had the best ground attack aircraft.

As for the horses, agreed, thats somthing people tend to forget. But they also were the first nation to fit radio's into every tank, thanks to Guderian, and unlike the British and French who's tanks were spread out thinly, the German armour was concentrated.

The problem is that people tend to ignore or not understand that the Werhmact was designed for one purpose, the invasion of Russia. In the UK we kid ourselve that the war was all about us, and when Germany could not invade us, they just looked around for someone else to pick on. The truth is we were an annoying distraction from the main event.

Here's one for you all in the alternative history conversation.  As a young boy I loved WWII Pacific theater history.  I also enjoyed watching movies of WWII.  I remember going to a theater on Kuhio Avenue in Waikiki to see a three hour long "A Bridge too far" based on the real life Operation Market Garden.  The movie "Midway", and this movie of which fits perfectly into this thread called "The Final Countdown". 

A modern day Nuclear Aircraft Carrier loaded with modern day jets goes into a time hole back into history, a few hours before the attack on Pearl Harbor.  The decision to help the American military to stave off the attack or to leave things be is the biggest decision the Aircraft Carrier Captain has to contemplate on.  What would you do my fellow FSM Forum members?

Well by the time the Captain makes a decision of which was to launch the jets and of course take the initiative and destroy the Japanese plans as well as the IJN, the hole or worm hole or whatever you want to call it, opens up at the very last minute and if the captain decides to stay, the opportunity to get back home would be taken away.

So they re-enter the worm hole and that was that.  They are back in their time and go about their day to day business.  It's a interesting movie for it's time as I enjoyed it as a youth and an interesting conversation on this thread as well.  Did anyone else see this movie?

Your friend's, Toshi & Ezra

Yes, the movie The Final Countdown ends with the hero and lady arriving in modern day 1980s and being a very rich couple. They were modern day people stranded in 1941.

I always wondered what would have happened if the strike package didn't make it back to the carrier before the ship sailed back into the storm.

Tosh

Ah ha!  Alternative history.  Well now, this is a very interesting subject.  Several years ago I purchased a Zoukei Mura "Shinden".  Can you imagine this crazy looking Imperial Japanese airforce aircraft if it actually made it into real action.  What if?  And that's a big what if, (Alternative History) the Japanese mass produced this push pull conceptual aircraft into full on production in the late 1930's only to be used in the sneak attack of Pearl Harbor of where Mrs. Toshi and I hail from, on December of 7, 1941 Sunday 7:00am!  Wow!!!

Zoukie Mura also sold a aftermarket set with PE that changed the "Shinden" kit into, you really want to know?  A jet fighter!  It looks absolutely something from the Robotech universe in which the Japanese excelled in this storm that has taken the world over twice in the anime genre!  

Talk about alternative history.  Lol!  From what I've read, after the fall of the Japanese Empire all military equipment were boxed up and shipped back to the US.  Somewhere in the Smithsonian Institute (Just like the ending of one of the Indiana Jones movies where the "Ark of Covnent" sits in a highly classified store house) sits a "Shinden" that's slowly falling apart due to neglect and age.  

Growing up in Honolulu, Hawaii, I recall as a youth seeing in science magazines, National Geographic, PBS Television in that a new type of aircraft with no mention of the "Shinden" was being built.  Can anyone say Push Pull?  LOL!  Alternative History you say!  Lol!

Your friend's, Toshi & Ezra

P.S.  This sir is a very cool subject to create a discussions on!  Thank you very much sir for creating such an opportunity and allowing FSM Forum members to join in on the rhetoric and expanding on something I believe strongly in; "Imagination".  For without that, one could never invent something for mankind, for the cause of good use or bad use.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Shinden were in a computer game I played years and years ago- 'Aces of the Pacific 1946. They were really annoying since they look like they're flying backswards. So I'd lead them but be actually shooting waaaaaaaay behind them. You had to get closer to see for sure what they were. 

And 'The Final Countdown' was a pretty awesome movie- I really need to see it again... 

Gamera

 

 

Tosh

Ah ha!  Alternative history.  Well now, this is a very interesting subject.  Several years ago I purchased a Zoukei Mura "Shinden".  Can you imagine this crazy looking Imperial Japanese airforce aircraft if it actually made it into real action.  What if?  And that's a big what if, (Alternative History) the Japanese mass produced this push pull conceptual aircraft into full on production in the late 1930's only to be used in the sneak attack of Pearl Harbor of where Mrs. Toshi and I hail from, on December of 7, 1941 Sunday 7:00am!  Wow!!!

Zoukie Mura also sold a aftermarket set with PE that changed the "Shinden" kit into, you really want to know?  A jet fighter!  It looks absolutely something from the Robotech universe in which the Japanese excelled in this storm that has taken the world over twice in the anime genre!  

Talk about alternative history.  Lol!  From what I've read, after the fall of the Japanese Empire all military equipment were boxed up and shipped back to the US.  Somewhere in the Smithsonian Institute (Just like the ending of one of the Indiana Jones movies where the "Ark of Covnent" sits in a highly classified store house) sits a "Shinden" that's slowly falling apart due to neglect and age.  

Growing up in Honolulu, Hawaii, I recall as a youth seeing in science magazines, National Geographic, PBS Television in that a new type of aircraft with no mention of the "Shinden" was being built.  Can anyone say Push Pull?  LOL!  Alternative History you say!  Lol!

Your friend's, Toshi & Ezra

P.S.  This sir is a very cool subject to create a discussions on!  Thank you very much sir for creating such an opportunity and allowing FSM Forum members to join in on the rhetoric and expanding on something I believe strongly in; "Imagination".  For without that, one could never invent something for mankind, for the cause of good use or bad use.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Shinden were in a computer game I played years and years ago- 'Aces of the Pacific 1946. They were really annoying since they look like they're flying backswards. So I'd lead them but be actually shooting waaaaaaaay behind them. You had to get closer to see for sure what they were. 

And 'The Final Countdown' was a pretty awesome movie- I really need to see it again... 

 

Your friend's, Toshi & Ezra

The "Final Countdown" I saw in 1980 when came out (or so).  I felt it cheated.  So they down  couple of Zeros.  Big deal.  They show off the Nimitz, and some F-14s.  The best thing was they prounced the Japanese carriers well.  Nothing changed.  I still feel it's a waste of time.  Now time travel can make a good story, if it's taken for fun.  The books Weapons of Choice, ( I think, it's been long time), about ships of the near future, going back to June, 1942, and staying there and changing history of WW2 in Europe and Asia is interesting.  It takes three books to tell the whole story.

Germany and WWII. So many opinions. For mine I think it comes down to superior equipment and tactics in some areas, poor strategic decisions, an apparent inability to mass produce, political interferance, hate based policies and severely flawed use of their tactical forces. I also agree with Bish. The war with Britain was a sideshow that Hitler  did not want. For those who are interested I can thoroughly reccomend 'Hitler's War Directives'. A bit dry but hugely informative. Straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak.

Dodgy

... an apparent inability to mass produce...

A big one in WW2 would be if Japan doesn't attack the US, Germany doesn't declare war on the US and the US pursues an "America First" policy as was prevalent at the time.

GMorrison

 

 

Dodgy

... an apparent inability to mass produce...

 

 

 

Yes, economies win wars.

 

A big one in WW2 would be if Japan doesn't attack the US, Germany doesn't declare war on the US and the US pursues an "America First" policy as was prevalent at the time.

 

HBO had a recent miniseries of Lindberg beating Roosevelt in the 1940 election and he essentially keeps the US out of the war by cozying up with Germany and the domestic antisemites and remaining a neutral nation.  It was a bit heavy handed in the political lecturing department, in my humble opinion, but not a bad viewing.  Was based on a book from 20 years ago, The Plot Against America.

Roosevelt still beats Lindberg, but 800,000 of the AF movement strike on the economy.

Maybe Japan attacks, but Hitler doesn't have his crazy moment and tells Von Ribbentrop to declare war against the US.