Hello Griffin25,

Personally, I've had trouble using Tamiya Clear Flat acrylic, and read with interest your comments about using spray cans to dull cote models.

I've had the jar a long time and had to thinn it down quite a lot.

I did a fine mist- cote all over the model at 25 psi (to shift the stuff out of the air brush) and there didn't seem to be any broblems. However, when I came to the next step, which was a continuation of the weathering process- using oil paints thinned with AK Interactive Oderless Thinner, I found that the thinners bit right throuth the prviously applied clear cote, and destroyed the original oil paint weathing. In places the thinner has even gone through the initial cote of Tamiya German Grey. I really didn't expect this to happen and thought that solvent- based thinners weren't supposed to react with acrylics!

Question:

If I had used Testors or similar out of a spray can, as you suggest, would I have achieved better results?

rodent01  

I use the Model Masters flat, clear acrylic with GREAT results.  I got some from Hobby Lobby using a 40% off coupon and got some airbrush thinner as well.  The thinner directions say to use 1 to 2 drops of thinner to 20 drops of paint.  This worked quite well.  I am very happy with the results.

I even use real rust on my models.  I put some fine steel wool in a larger sized pill bottle and cover it with white vinegar.  After about 3 to 4 weeks, after the steel wool is disolved, I pour it out into a stainless steel photographic tray and wait for the vinegar to evaporate.  After it is dry, I use a paint scraper (razor blade type) to scrape out the rust.  I comes out as a fine powder which I apply to my models with some Elmer´s glue.  After that dries and after weathering the model with a black wash I use the Model Masters flat, clear acrylic for the top coat.  I am quite amazed at how realistic I can make a plastic model look like a metal one.  I have read many articles on weathering using paints to simulate the rust look, but nothing looks better than using actual iron oxide as my rusting agent.  

   Well there are two types of acrylics - oil based, and water based. I know that the water based kind is what Viejo brand makes.  From what I know from personal experience is that these are great for figures, and armour - especially their flat is famous among the modeling scene. I don't too many people who HAVEN'T used them! The thing is with these is that if you use anything other than water it can clog your gun. The reason for this is because when you thin paint you cut the base making it thinner and with water which basically if you thin too much it will make the base so thin that it clumps, or it becomes grainy looking. This is because the acrylic is a low solvent, or water based and the elemental substrate so any time you break it down you're basically reformulating it somewhat. It makes this worse by using ammonia which is not water based, but rather AMMONIA which makes the acrylic naturally clumpy as the two are incompatible.

     Basically put this is formulated to be used with only so much water, and exceeding that amount is unstable, and makes the paints' intended use unable to do as it normally would. Ultimately it's a gamble. I'm not very familiar with what they use since I don't cut my paints usually, but just paint with a brush when using them and I don't cut unless I'm using it for a special effect. However, the Viejo brand will work pretty good despite all this when using their gloss paints. These are thicker, and are a little more forgiving when cutting with water. Humidity only affects gloss finishes usually. I don't have the haziness, or crazing caused by it when using flat paints. 

~ Cobra Chris

Thanks Chris, your post was full of great info. here in the midwest we definatly have humidity,but I do spray in an air conditioned shop in my house....although I think I may get a barometer to see what the humidity actually is in my shop.

I do have a question about Vallejo clears, I have never had much luck spraying their paints, even with their thinners they clog my brush and seem to go on very grainy.I have never tried the clears, do they have the issues that the pigmented paints have?

Let me educate you all on something that each of you has missed.

I've been painting for over thirty years, and I've been modeling even longer. First of all there's no such thing as "acrylic lacquer". This is a misnomer that was introduced in the early 1950's as Ducco Colours by the DuPont corporation. These were described as "enamel lacquers" which is too a misnomer. Everyone who has worked in the painting industry knows for a fact that you cannot mix true lacquer with either acrylic, or enamel as its' formulation is too hot, and won't bind with other substrates. What *** thought that lacquer is, or ever was acrylic, and decided to name it that wouldn't know lacquer if he was DROWNING IN IT!! Lacquer is made from nitrocellulose - tree gum fiber, and NO ACRYLIC paint on the market has this in it - EVER!!! You can make a high V.O.C. (Volume of Organic Content) version of any paint with a solvent base, but true lacquer EATS other substrates causing a lifting, or wrinkling effect. It also crazes (turns white) with other paint finishes which is why you can't spray it over anything else.

Second: Acrylic and any other paint will turn white which is a condition known as "blushing" that is caused by HUMIDITY, and spraying too close! This will happen with any paint no matter what substrate, or base it's made from. Don't spray in more than 70% humidity otherwise you're asking for trouble. Check your local weather forcast first, or if you have a barometer like I do. You'll want to spray no closer than eight inches from the surface, and no farther than this to ensure a smooth coat. Spray no longer that it takes to count three seconds in one twelve inch pass. If you count longer than three seconds, then you're spraying it too long, and if you count less then you're not spraying it long enough. Just spray with a sweeping motion across in one direction starting off the model (in mid-air) so that the spray doesn't blast the surface all at once causing it too pool, or accumulate too much, and keep spraying until you're past the model so that you get an even surface coverage. I use Krylon FLAT CLEAR COAT, and I have yet to get a bad finish surface from it. Let it dry for at least THREE MINUTES before you spray another coat over the surface allowing it enough time to dry so that it can lay down into crevices.

Third: Practice on scrap plastic yard sale signs until you get the desired result. Remember; the spray buttons on most of these spray cans is not the best design, and it will spray like a fire extinguisher if you're not careful to spray it far enough away that you can have more control. If the paint goes on so thin that you can't see it, then you're spraying too thin! This is simple enough to spray it over regular paint finishes. I cannot vouch for any other types of substrates, or mixing weird concontions together then spraying it over your paint without any consequences. This includes any type of floor wax/polishes, or automotive polishes with silicone oils in them.

~ Cobra Chris

plasticjunkie

 

Griffin25

What is the advantage or why should you use acrylic clear coat? I really don't know. Can somebody educate me?

 Trying to use a clear coat through an airbrush is more trouble than it's worth from my experience. The spray can is the way to go. Easy, no cleanup and can be found at your local store no problem.  

Rob

 

 

 

 

 

Some modelers don't like the fumes from solvent type paints and they rather use acrylics.

I rather decant and run the paint thru my AB because I have more control this way than from a rattle can. I can lay down ultra thin coats and blend areas.

Also using a solvent type wash/filter over lacquer may result in the wrinkling or lifting of the finish if it's gone over several times as in DOT filtering where thinner is used to remove most of the artist oil paint so I rather use a clear acrylic as a barrier.

 

 Oh I see. That makes sense. I have never used a solvent based wash over it, only acrylic based paints and washes for finishing. Thanks for explaining.

RockyD

thanks guys, lots of good info, the reason why i want to airbrush only acrylic is the fumes when my shop was in the garage it didnt matter so much but now I am in the house so to keep the wife happy I only want to use acrylic

Then I think your best bet is to pick a brand and spray it on very thin as Mustang said above.

Additionally, a paint booth helps to get rid of those nasty fumes..................alot.

thanks guys, lots of good info, the reason why i want to airbrush only acrylic is the fumes when my shop was in the garage it didnt matter so much but now I am in the house so to keep the wife happy I only want to use acrylic.

Griffin25

What is the advantage or why should you use acrylic clear coat? I really don't know. Can somebody educate me?

 Trying to use a clear coat through an airbrush is more trouble than it's worth from my experience. The spray can is the way to go. Easy, no cleanup and can be found at your local store no problem.  

Rob

 

Some modelers don't like the fumes from solvent type paints and they rather use acrylics.

I rather decant and run the paint thru my AB because I have more control this way than from a rattle can. I can lay down ultra thin coats and blend areas.

Also using a solvent type wash/filter over lacquer may result in the wrinkling or lifting of the finish if it's gone over several times as in DOT filtering where thinner is used to remove most of the artist oil paint so I rather use a clear acrylic as a barrier.

Testors Model Master #1960 Lusterless laquer in the spray can has never let me down. It's not acrylic but it doesn't matter. You can apply it over anything and use anythig on top of it after it dries. As long as you don't go crazy with it and just use 1 or 2 light to moderate coats. It doesn't run, cloud and provides a very uniform finish. It's very forgiving too if you happen to over do it. I use it on every scale for every kind of kit unless a gloss coat is needed of course. It's a little pricey but ebay has some good deals usually.

The other brands of spray clear coat work well too. I just have a thing for the Model Master. In my mind it's formulated for models. lol. Probably not true but it makes me feel better. What is the advantage or why should you use acrylic clear coat? I really don't know. Can somebody educate me?

 Trying to use a clear coat through an airbrush is more trouble than it's worth from my experience. The spray can is the way to go. Easy, no cleanup and can be found at your local store no problem.  

Rob

Ditto on the Valejo Matte Acrylic Varnish or Dullcoat.  Whichever I have on hand at the time. Never had a problem with either.

Jim  

Thanks Mustang, I've tried going super thin but I have a 'lead foot' with the airbrush and always tend to end up spraying a thicker coat than I intend to. 

I do use the MM acrylic gloss most of the time though, great stuff there. 

I've gotten to where when I spray my flat coats on I spray them so dang thin that I need backlighting to see where I'm coating. It's more of a mist than it is an actual coat and dries almost as soon as it contacts. This may help to avoid that milky look some folks are talking about and also helps out with the dust issues.

1 part Tamiya xf-86 and 3 parts Future.

At the risk of a "me too" post, wanted to chime in on Gamera and Tojo's comments.

I have also given up on airbrushing all acrylic matte and flats due to the milky white look. Honestly, I think it's me laying it on too heavily but I experimented and tested for months. And even if I had gotten it to work, I'd never remember how next time so I went another course.

So now, if I want to brush on an acrylic flat, out comes the trusty Vallejo Matte your referenced, Tojo.

But for any and all airbrushing, it's going to be either Alclad Matt or Flat (one is dead flat, one is a tad bit satin and I've forgotten which is which again).

Of course, an extra day of cure for the underlying acryl never hurts......

Gamera

 

 

Tojo72

 

 

Gamera

Spray as in a spray can? If so I have no idea beyond Dullcote and Krylon matte varnish. 

For airbrushing I use Alclad matte varnish, I've used several brands and had them go white on me. So far no issues with the Alclad, cross your fingers. 

 

 

 

 

Heard good things about that stuff,don't they make diffrent types,what do you thin it with,is iteasy to use,any info would be appreciated,might want to try it.

 

 

 

 

Whoops, guess I didn't read the entire question-sorry. The Alclad stuff is really good but it's not acrylic, or at least doesn't smell that way. I never thin it, use it straight from the bottle and then clean my airbrush with regular paint thinner. Normally I'm an acrylic prefered guy but I've had what looked like good bottles of Model Master and Vallejo matte varnish go white on me and ruin finished models- YMMV but I just don't trust them any longer.  

 

Thank you it's interesting,they make a product called Aqua Clear,so I'm thinking it's acrylic,but their line is all actually lacquer,maybe I'll give it a shot,I had heard it's really dead flat.

Tojo72

 

 

Gamera

Spray as in a spray can? If so I have no idea beyond Dullcote and Krylon matte varnish. 

For airbrushing I use Alclad matte varnish, I've used several brands and had them go white on me. So far no issues with the Alclad, cross your fingers. 

 

 

 

 

Heard good things about that stuff,don't they make diffrent types,what do you thin it with,is iteasy to use,any info would be appreciated,might want to try it.

 

Whoops, guess I didn't read the entire question-sorry. The Alclad stuff is really good but it's not acrylic, or at least doesn't smell that way. I never thin it, use it straight from the bottle and then clean my airbrush with regular paint thinner. Normally I'm an acrylic prefered guy but I've had what looked like good bottles of Model Master and Vallejo matte varnish go white on me and ruin finished models- YMMV but I just don't trust them any longer.  

Gamera

Spray as in a spray can? If so I have no idea beyond Dullcote and Krylon matte varnish. 

For airbrushing I use Alclad matte varnish, I've used several brands and had them go white on me. So far no issues with the Alclad, cross your fingers. 

 

Heard good things about that stuff,don't they make diffrent types,what do you thin it with,is iteasy to use,any info would be appreciated,might want to try it.

Krylon makes both a gloss and a flat acrylic clear coat.  The nozzles put out a fairly heavy coat, but I find that in a clear coat that is not so harmful.  You get a lot of coverage at a reasonable price.

I agree with mustang. You will get a lot of opinions. Myself, I will use rattle can clearcoat. I will NOT use Krylon brand. I hate the stuff.

Spray as in a spray can? If so I have no idea beyond Dullcote and Krylon matte varnish. 

For airbrushing I use Alclad matte varnish, I've used several brands and had them go white on me. So far no issues with the Alclad, cross your fingers. 

I have used the testors clear acrylic flat several times and works good. Just be aware that it produces kind of a dusty faded finish when dry so go easy with it and thin it out to lessen the effect.

I use Vallejo Matte Acrylic Varnish

70.520

Man you're gonna get alot of different opinions here. Lot's of guys use Tamiya acrylic and that looks really good. I started off with Testors Flat Clear acrylic and learned to cut it with Isopropyl alcohol. I like the results with it. I will say....do NOT use the Testors Gloss Clear Acrylic (for proper decal adhesion). There may be somebody out there who can use this stuff and get good results but I certainly aint one of 'em.

 Vallejo is another good alternative but you definitely don't want to cut that stuff with any alcohol based product. The results are anything but paint/coating I can tell ya that.

Tamiya makes a flat clear.  I can't remember the number, but the Tamiya web site would list it.