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Unusual Vietnam Hueys

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  • Member since
    April 2008
  • From: SE Alabama
Posted by Retired Gunpilot on Monday, September 8, 2008 10:26 PM

I agree that the fin does not looked cambered and is probably just extended. The reason was probably to assist in yaw control at high speed torque settings. This is the primary reason for the left side tail rotor being replaced with the right side tractor tailrotor on the snakes. The larger right sided tailrotor provided better control than the left sided tailrotor. I'm surpised they didn't just mount a civilian tailboom on it because the civilan 205 had the tractor right sided tailrotor.

Ray, Finally read this entire thread and it was very interesting. History, is interesting and the Army is one of the worst for accurate record keeping and still is today. I wish you all the luck in tracking the correct history.

 Charlie

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: phoenix
Posted by grandadjohn on Sunday, October 12, 2008 8:23 PM

 

Being a Nationl Guard unit, it was sometimes necesary to transport VIP's, steps were attached to both side to make it easier for the to load and unload

  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: Auburn, Alabama
Posted by rotorwash on Sunday, October 12, 2008 10:17 PM

Grandad,

  Nice pic thanks for posting it.  You happen to know what's on the seal on the belly of that bird?

      Ray

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: phoenix
Posted by grandadjohn on Monday, October 13, 2008 12:00 PM
 rotorwash wrote:

Grandad,

  Nice pic thanks for posting it.  You happen to know what's on the seal on the belly of that bird?

      Ray

 

It's the "old" National Guard seal

  • Member since
    July 2007
Posted by KrazyCat on Friday, January 30, 2009 5:32 PM

Recently I came across a very intriguing piece of information that certainly deserves some further research:

 

Allegedly the last issue of the VHCMA newsletter for 2008 features a cover photo of a 128th AHC Huey gunship armed with a one-of-a-kind door-mounted M75 40mm automatic grenade launcher system! Now, I personally haven't seen this photo, but sure would love to, cause it sounds like a bird worth building in 1/35 :)

 

I was wondering, if there is anybody out there who has the aforementioned issue of the VHCMA newsletter and would be kind enough to send me a scan of this unusual Huey photo, please drop me an email.

 

Thanks,

 

Marko

  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: Auburn, Alabama
Posted by rotorwash on Sunday, February 1, 2009 1:34 PM

Marko,

  Good to see you back!  There is a thread around here somewhere with a pic of that bird with teh automatic 40mm in the door.  My father told me that his bird a UH-1B had a Mk 18 hand cranked 40mm mounted to the old Sagami mount in the door.  Unfortunately, he doesn't have any pics of her armed this way, but you can see the old Sagami mount in this pic where the post with the Mk18 was mounted.

     Ray

 

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  • Member since
    February 2007
Posted by skypirate1 on Thursday, June 16, 2011 8:20 PM

This thread so needs bumping, Its home to possibly the best collection of rare huey armament pictures from anywhere on the internet. A must see for anyone interested in building a huey from Vietnam.

While the rest of the crew may be in the same predicament, it's almost always the pilot's job to arrive at the crash site first.
  • Member since
    August 2011
  • From: Berlin, Germany
Posted by SpotterXY on Sunday, August 7, 2011 1:16 PM

skypirate1

Anyway im not to sure if this unusual but i dont think ive seen rockets mounted this high before.http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u188/skypirate2/untitled10-1.jpg

I think I can shed some light on this. This arrangement was only flown at Camp Holloway, Pleiku (unit?) from 1963-64 and can be considered experimental.

Some more photos of the system:

I've some more pics for this thread but have to sort the stuff before posting so stay tuned.

 

Best regards

Martin

  • Member since
    August 2008
  • From: Brandon, MS
Posted by loachman on Sunday, August 7, 2011 2:26 PM

The system uses MA-2/A (two tube) rocket units put together into banks of usually up to 8 tubes per side.  MA-2/A's were developed for fixed wing use, but were replaced by the smaller breed of missles.  The helicopter system is generally credited as being put together by CWO Cleatus L. Heck, in-country while he was with UTT in 62-63.  He returned and served with subsequent units in 65-66.  It was sometimes called the Heck System.  I've heard, though it was before my time in country, that it was quite a "burn" for the crew chief or gunner. 

Goggle for MA-2/A armament system and check out www.flyarmy.org for Cleatus Heck.

Am pulling together supplies and material to build a 1/35 Bravo model using an Academy UH-1C, Cobra Bravo conversion and M-6 set, Eduard PE, Fireball decals, and a bunch of scratch building.  Got to get several things finished and out of the way before I crank.  As I get older, I think I need to cut back on the multi-tasking.

 

 

  • Member since
    August 2011
  • From: Berlin, Germany
Posted by SpotterXY on Sunday, August 7, 2011 2:48 PM

There was a great website with much info on nearly all of the armament systems of that era including much of the experimental stuff but it's unfortunately not available anymore (hopefully just for the moment).

http://tri.army.mil/LC/cs/csa/aawpns.htm

Some more pics of the system and an earlier version.

Btw, were you a Cayuse driver loachman?

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Sunday, August 7, 2011 2:56 PM

Great photos Spotter!

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    August 2011
  • From: Berlin, Germany
Posted by SpotterXY on Sunday, August 7, 2011 3:22 PM

Thanks but credits go to the guys who took the pics, scanned and then uploaded them.

-----

An unusual combo with XM14 (pod contains an M3 HMG with 750rounds) and XM157 (seven-tube rocket launcher).

Note: This seems to be the same ship (Super Hog) shown some pages ago sporting the quad M200 launchers.

An other gunship with unusual camo. Don't know what armament was actually hidden under the tarp.

And if somebody is interested and wants to see one of the "smokeships" in action just follow this link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvFeyslhWRo&feature=player_profilepage#t=127s

  • Member since
    August 2008
  • From: Brandon, MS
Posted by loachman on Sunday, August 7, 2011 4:00 PM

I was not rated.  Carried 67 CMF MOS's - 67M (Sioux), 67N (Huey/Iroquois), 67V (Cayuse), 68J (Aircraft Armament), 67T (Blackhawk), and 67Z (Aircraft Maintenance Senior Sargeant).  Served as repairman, crew cheif, observer, etc.  Retired Sergeant Major (41 years-Active, Reserve, and National Guard).  Worked with a whole bunch of Enlisted Soldiers, Warrants and RLO's- many great, some good, and a few that needed guidance.  Went to pasture well before the enlisted aviation MOS's changed to 15 series.  I like the idea of common numbers across the rank structure. 

Everyone knew that the Hughes OH-6A was my favorite.  Was in the MSARNG when the Loaches went away.  We got to hang onto them a lot longer than many others who appreciated their ability to do what they were designed to do.  Several MS Loaches (series 3) wound up as special ops aircraft.  Good folks know good airplanes.  Went to pasture well before enlisted aviation MOS's changed to 15 series. Enjoying being an OLD F--T.  Life is a lot slower, except when the grandkids are around. 

 

  • Member since
    August 2011
  • From: Berlin, Germany
Posted by SpotterXY on Sunday, August 7, 2011 4:55 PM

Wow, seems like you've come around much. Thanks for the details and of course your service! Always great to talk to BTDT people.

I've a question you may can answer concerning the armament of some Loaches as I got varying comments about this. Some of them sported a minigun (M21 subsystem with M134) and some additionally a three-tube rocket-launcher. I was told that most pilots hated them because in hot and high areas the OH-6 behaved like a "pig" with the extra load while others say they thought the helicopter was actually overpowered. What is your impression/opinion on this?

-----

Somewhere in this thread somebody mentioned the forward mounted M6 subsystems on the longer fuselage models. I was told that the reason for the positioning was that spend casing could actually hit the tail-rotor under some circumstances and that this was countered by moving the system forward. It may also helped to stop jams in the chutes because the ammo boxes could be placed on a more convinient position.

  • Member since
    August 2008
  • From: Brandon, MS
Posted by loachman on Sunday, August 7, 2011 6:00 PM

The gun system used on the Cayuse and Kiowa was the M27 system.  It had the M134 mounted (a great deal of info is out there about the variants).  I never personally saw rocket tubes mounted on the Vietnam era OH-6A.  I have seen pictures of such arrangements.  Most of this was protype or developed when the 6 was sent to special ops.  I have seen the XM8 system-M129 40 mm grenade launcher mounted on basically the same mount.  Somewhere online, I have seen pictures of this and the earlier Hughes M75. 

The OH-6 had a derated engine  due to transmission limitations.  I feel that it had sufficient power for what it was designed to do.  In a hot, high humidity, adverse density altitude environments, it held its own.  Even in the ARNG, in the south, we ofen operated in a less than ideal DA environment.  A good book to read is "LOACH' by Wayne Mutza.  It contains a lot of good factual info about the Cayuse.  

Never personally saw a standard Army 205 body outfitted with a gun system like those pictured.  I understand that there were protypes developed and again, seen pictures of VNAF and U.S. field developed  and modified long bodies with a variety of armaments.  Some seem feasible, some not so-airframe problems, etc.

Spent cases created some problems occassionally, however, some of the equipment solutions: catch bags, deflectors, etc. didn't always work as designed-there are designers and there are builders.  I have seen field expedient wire shields on M16 and M21 systems on gunships and behind some door gun stations.  Most of that was a long time ago.  What I saw after Vietnam were basically standard issue pieces of armament mounted by the book.

 

  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: Auburn, Alabama
Posted by rotorwash on Sunday, August 7, 2011 6:51 PM

Holy resurrected threads, Batman!  It seems like a hundred years ago that I started this thread.

Regarding the early MA-2 rockets, I have some pics of Cletus Heck working with the system here somewhere.  I'll just have to dig them up.  Unfortunately, I believe he was KIA on his second tour.  The best source I have seen for pics and info on the earliest Vietnam weapon systems is "Army Gunships in Vietnam" by Bob Chenoweth.  Definitely worth a look.  Also, go HERE for a nice piece on early UTT aircraft and armament.  By the way UTTHCO was the Utility Tactical Transport Helicopter Company and these guys basically wrote the book on armed helicopter tactics in Vietnam.  The Uh-1B above with the XM14 50 cal pod is a UTT bird.  They also experimented with cammo patterns so if you see a cammo bird with crossed sabres on the door, it's probably UTT.

The YUH-1D (you can see the tail boom extension that was added behind the fuselage) with the XM6 quad 60 system on it was strictly a test bird and no US Army long cabin Hueys were ever fitted with the system in country.

Regarding the Loach questions, Andy (Skypirate) started a non- Huey Unusual Vietnam helo thread.  Check HERE for lots of info on weird Loaches and other oddballs.

  Ray

PS: Welcome to the boards Spotter!

  • Member since
    August 2011
  • From: Berlin, Germany
Posted by SpotterXY on Monday, August 8, 2011 11:21 AM

@ loachman: I thought the armament was more common as there are quite a couple of pics of diffrent helicopters available. I know about the XM8 configuration and even have some pics of it but think it was only experimental and I'm not sure if it actually was even used incountry?

I always thought the OH-6 was quite powerfull but didn't know about this limits. I was told the Bo-105 uses the same engine and this helicopter surely isn't underpowered. The German PAH (anti-tank) version carries six HOT missiles without a problem but then I'm not sure if they were talking of the OH-6A when they talked about the engine.

I guess the two scans are showing a CONUS test maybe at Ft. Rucker. I also never saw this config used on US Hueys but as we know the Aussies used it on their Bushrangers. I remember I had a Roco modelkit in 1:87 as I was a child which you could build in that config.

I didn't want to believe that spent casing could be a problem with gravity and the downwash until a former Bushranger crewmember told me otherwise.

@ rotorwash: I know the VHPA website and have downloaded quite a couple of stuff from there. Think I've the PDF you linked somewhere in my collection already.

I actually can't make out the tail-boom extension but I'm not a pro on that am happy that I can halfway designate the diffrent Huey versions. Where to look exactly?

Thanks for the pointing out that other thread. Think I can also contribute something to that one. Thanks for the welcome, too. Always nice to meet some people with the same interests and to chat with.

-----

A really rare photo with two C models (?) equipped with the TK2 mounts and TAT 101 (Tactical Armament Turret) under the chin. Don't know if these are USN or USMC choppers.

Closeup of an TK2 mount only used by the Navy and Marine Corps.

  • Member since
    August 2008
  • From: Brandon, MS
Posted by loachman on Monday, August 8, 2011 11:55 AM

These are probably USMC Echo models.

  • Member since
    August 2011
  • From: Berlin, Germany
Posted by SpotterXY on Monday, August 8, 2011 12:24 PM

Yes, think you're right. The Navy also operated some "hand me down" Army gunships but these were actually B models as far as I know.

-----

An other defoliant version.

Note: This version seems to use airflow (pressure) to spray the defoliants and not a propeller driven pump like other versions.

  • Member since
    December 2002
Posted by Hatter50 on Monday, August 8, 2011 12:47 PM

The Navy Seawolves (HAL-3) operated the UH-1B's early and were getting some C's and later some M's also from the Army.  The larger engine for the M was in demand by everyone so the navy was low on the totum pole.

The Seawolves eventually got thier own Navy order of 6 UH-1L's and HH-1K's that had the larger -13 engine.

Since everybody was scrambling for Hueys of all stripes and especially the larger engined versions, the Navy seemed to stay with the Army equipment and the Marines went with the purpose build UH-1E's (both B and C rotorheads with the -11 engine) as well as some borrowed UH-1B's from the Army.

Regards
Steve

  • Member since
    August 2011
  • From: Berlin, Germany
Posted by SpotterXY on Tuesday, August 9, 2011 1:30 PM

Thanks for this info. Much appreciated!

-----

Found some shots with XM31 in here but none with the cover on so I thought I'd add this.

And a thing that puzzles me like years. What's in the back of this ARA and why the cables and extra struts on the skids?

 

  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: Auburn, Alabama
Posted by rotorwash on Tuesday, August 9, 2011 5:24 PM

 

Top pic is the XM31 on a 2/20th ARA bird.  They tested the system in country. These are from Jerry Brooks and show what became of that bird.

The bottom pic is a US Army Aviation Test Board UH-1B fitted with the XM3 system and test equipment.  I don't know the particulars of what is in the cabin, but the bright orange is a dead giveaway that it's a test aircraft.  As for the cables, my guess would be they go to TV cameras that will record the flight of the rockets.  You can see that the skids are tied down so this was a static test of some type.  Mind if I ask where the photo is from?  It might help shed light on what was being tested. HTH

    Ray

  • Member since
    August 2011
  • From: Berlin, Germany
Posted by SpotterXY on Wednesday, August 10, 2011 12:26 PM

I really don't remember where this pic is from. Maybe from the no longer existing TACOM site but I'm not sure. I guess if there would have been a story/caption with more infos to the photo I could remember.

Any infos why the XM31 ship went down?

 

  • Member since
    July 2009
  • From: Upland, California
Posted by HMA1369 on Thursday, August 11, 2011 1:00 PM

"Don't know if these are USN or USMC choppers."

They're UH-1Es from VMO-6.

  • Member since
    August 2011
  • From: Berlin, Germany
Posted by SpotterXY on Thursday, August 11, 2011 1:25 PM

Thanks for info...noted.

-----

Any infos on the painting of this dust offs? The helicopters were designated HU-1A so it has to be a quite early photograph. Maybe this pic wasn't taken in RVN?

I noticed that the ROKs fly medevac Blackhawks with a similar sheme today.

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Valrico, FL
Posted by HeavyArty on Thursday, August 11, 2011 5:40 PM

SpotterXY

Any infos on the painting of this dust offs? The helicopters were designated HU-1A so it has to be a quite early photograph. Maybe this pic wasn't taken in RVN?

I noticed that the ROKs fly medevac Blackhawks with a similar sheme today.

They are HU/UH-1As from Korea when the 1 CAV was still there.  1 Cav moved to Ft Benning in '64 and redesignated as the 1st Cavaly Division (Airmobile), a.k.a. 1st Air Cav, then went to Vietnam in '65.

The yellow-banded helos are also flown by the US, mainly MedEvac, but cargo too.  The yellow bands are required under the '53 UN Cease-Fire Agreement.  The bands denote a non-aggresive aircraft and only yellow-banded aircraft can fly into the DMZ.

US UH-60 MedEvac in Korea from '04.

UH-1D/H models also wore the stripes, from '72:

If you want to build one, check out Floyd's new Blackhawk Decal Sheets.

 

Gino P. Quintiliani - Field Artillery - The KING of BATTLE!!!

Check out my Gallery: https://app.photobucket.com/u/HeavyArty

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

  • Member since
    October 2010
  • From: Staten Island
Posted by BigDaddyBluesman on Saturday, September 17, 2011 5:33 PM

WOW awesome thread. I was interested in maybe doing some Vietnam era choppers but now, no way. I'll stick to armor but I do have a 1/35 Loach I am going to do to go along with some CAV armor stuff.

So nobody could identify the orange missile fired. I have seen that picture before a long, long time ago. It was not a hellfire for sure. The orange color probably meant it was a test missile. It looks like a Maverick but smaller. I am going to look and see if I can find out. If it's out there I'll find it eventually.........

The reason I am interested is that it kinds of gets to me, I saw that pic a long time ago, before there were computers and the internet. As soon as I saw it here I recognized it and when nobody identified it it got to me. It's like on the tip of my tongue, I remember it, I saw it somewhere and it's bugging me. I think I saw it before I even knew there was a Hellfire. I mean I saw it a long, long time ago as I have been studying weapons and warfare since I was a kid and I'm 55.

So the search starts.

Keep this thread going it's one of the best I ever read and I am totally into the Vietnam era weaponry, warfare and history.

  • Member since
    August 2011
Posted by Jumo213A1 on Monday, September 19, 2011 10:56 AM

Great pictures KrazyCat !!! Do you have something similar for the UH-1E with the TAT-101 ?

I've been searching for a very long time but I just can't find anything .

So everybody here I need your help ! Where can I get any information about this USMC chopper ???

  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: Auburn, Alabama
Posted by rotorwash on Monday, September 19, 2011 12:40 PM

 

regarding the Mystery Missile.  best of luck finding info.  I have tried for 4 years.  What i can tell you is that the Hellfire was tested on a Huey and I do have pics of that.

Regarding the UH-1E with the TAT 101 turret.  One of the reasons it's hard to find pics and info is that the system sucked.  It was unreliable and jammed so frequently that it was removed on almost all in-country birds soon after the UH-1E's appearance in Vietnam.  Here are some official Bell photos of the setup that might help with details.

   Ray

 

Here's a shot if the center console on a TAT-101 armed UH-1E.  On eof the things I don't see is the ammo chute running along the floor like you would see in the M5 system.  I admit I don't know how it was configured, but definitely not like the M5 system.

 

Here's a view from the front:

  • Member since
    October 2010
  • From: Staten Island
Posted by BigDaddyBluesman on Monday, September 19, 2011 11:23 PM

I think I'm getting close to the mystery missile.

What I think I know so far is this. I think it's a test missile, it's orange, it's not a production model. It's definitely something that was never in service. But it was part of a program that either was a dead end or the beginning of something else.

It could be a few models that I read about that never entered service, but cannot find a picture. I have to find out first about how long it was. Judging by the fuselage of the Huey I have to estimate that. Then try to match it up with something that makes sense.

It could be a hybrid Using a body with different fins and a different seeker. It's not a TOW for sure. But it could be the test missile for a hellfire type missile but using a different type of seeker or body. I read about using a sidewinder as an anti-tank missile firing off a Huey, I think there was a picture. Maybe I saw it here???

If I can't find a picture I will find some thing that makes sense. Identify the tube length, then the fins and then the seeker. Is it IR, is it laser guided? I have seen the rear fins and tube on other missiles. It's the overall length and the fins in the middle that make it unidentifiable. I don't think it's wire guided, it's probably either laser or heat.

I don't think it would be a mini Harpoon, that's anti shipping and Navy stuff. I don't think it makes sense to launch an anti radiation missile off a chopper, that's for the fast movers to attack radars. So it's almost definitely an anti-tank missile by reason of logical deduction.

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