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New diorama idea..

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  • Member since
    January, 2018
New diorama idea..
Posted by Failmailer on Tuesday, January 09, 2018 10:27 AM

So i have never made a diorama before...the tanks and tent and barbed wire are all 1/35 scale, and as you can see its kind of a winter-y theme that im going for because im obssessed with winter, and yes i know it isnt period correct or anything, but for my first little thing i wanna do i would just like it to be cool :) Ive got a basic layout of what i would want to do, with the white paper on the ground being snow, and the sherman and a t-34/76 coming down a hill to be surprised by a tiger and a the crew taking a little break, perhaps behind the tiger where ive got that truck sitting (will not be in actual diorama) maybe a little creek with cracked ice the tiger drove over...? using stuff from https://www.precisioniceandsnow.com/   and hopefully make it look like some deep snow and some cool stuff :) Looking for suggestions!! 

hopefully pics post...

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  • Member since
    January, 2018
Posted by Failmailer on Tuesday, January 09, 2018 10:28 AM

sorry posted the same pic a few times..new to figuring out pictures lol.. 

  • Member since
    December, 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Thursday, January 11, 2018 1:16 AM

I saw this yesterday and have been trying to decide how to responed as i really don't want to put you off. But as some one who loves doing dio's, i feel i have to be honest. For you first dio its good to see you have some of the basics, nothing parrelel to the base and no large empty space. But i also think you are being a bit ambitious. Personally, i am not a fan of big dio's, and dio's with multipule vehicles can often just look wrong, i tend to avoid them expect in certain circumstance. And vehicles of opposing forces even less so.

IMHO a dio should be realistic as well as tell a story. Yours would leave me asking to many question. Why would the Tiger crew put it in an ambush position and then just sit there with thumbs up backside. Some one should be on watch. Why did they not hear the other tanks coming, trust me, you can hear a tank from a very long way off. How did the allied tank not see the Tiger, unless its hidden in lots of foliage and camoflage, they would spot it and certainly not drive straight down its throat.

You said you want some suggestion, keep it simple. You could remove the allied tanks, turn the Tiger to face the front, but at an angle, have a crewman in the turret and the rest of the crew, at the back, maybe grabbing a bit to eat. May be add in some suporting Infantry, perpahps with a small trench to the side of the tank.

Make your vehcile the focal point of the scene with everything else helping to tell the story, add more interest and provide life and movment.

''I am a Norfolk man, and i glory in being so''

 

On the bench: Rudel Stage 3

                     Academy 1/72nd Apache AH.1

  • Member since
    September, 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Thursday, January 11, 2018 1:29 AM

Here's my two bits.

First, look at Shep Paine's book about how to design a dio.

One major piece, the focal point.

Second. Pay attention to scale. The idea of barbed wire for instance is to shoot and kill people before they can do that to you. Usually that's a business of a couple of hundred feet.

Good start but think about the photos you have seen, and what made you interested in them.

  • Member since
    December, 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Thursday, January 11, 2018 1:52 AM

I really must read that book one day. I didn't know Shep talks about just one major piece.

Good advice.

''I am a Norfolk man, and i glory in being so''

 

On the bench: Rudel Stage 3

                     Academy 1/72nd Apache AH.1

  • Member since
    November, 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Thursday, January 11, 2018 10:53 AM

Guess I'm a little confused as why a T-34 and a Sherman would be together unless the Sherman is a Soviet lend-lease vehicle when she has what looks like American markings to me. 

The guys have great advice here. Start small and work your way up. And Shep Paine's book is invaluable. 

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    November, 2005
  • From: Formerly Bryan, now Arlington, Texas
Posted by CapnMac82 on Saturday, January 13, 2018 7:46 PM

Ok, "ambush" dios are incredibly hard to pull off.

First off, as Sherman "ambush" setting is sprrising a target at 500m away (14m at 1/35 scale).  A tiger "ambush" would be to surprise targets at 750-800m (21-22m) away.

You could cheat this, by using a town street intersection where the two vehicles might not see each other.  However, tanks in town must have supporting infantry (as it keeps people from just dumping flamables into the engine intakes or otherwise boogering the tanks).  Infantry will always look around corners (and through buildings) to protect their tank (it's their portable pillbox after all), so a surprise settting is going to want maybe a 100m, about 3m to scale. 

The MGs on tanks are meant to provide suppressing (anti-infantry) fires out to 1500-2000m.  Tankers get very nervous if anybody (other than friendly troops) get closer than 100-250m (bazooka/panzerfaust range).

Even at 1/72 scale, the distances are still large; this is why the wargamers use 1/1200, where 100m is only 83mm, or 1/2400 where it's 41.5mm to display tank-on-tank combat.

Now, a brief discourse on obstacles.  You put tank traps  obstacles where you do not want the tanks to go.  As a tanker, you always reduce those obstacles, or avoid them entire (you typically have  Corps of Engineers to sort such things out).
Barbed wire is only used to deter and detain infantry--tanks were invented to specifically defeat barbed wire.  The only notice tankers will make of barbed wire  is to be on the lookout for the infantry covering such obstacles watchig to see if the bad guys have breached that wire. 

So, such things, especially in open country, always have a purpose.

You put out barbed wire to try to force the bad guys to go where you want them to, not where they want to go.  You have to cover that wire, typically with an MG or two, in case the engineers or sappers try to break the barrier.

The same holds true of tank obstacles--you put them where you want the bad guy's tanks not to go.  You put them in great big cleared swathes, so that any Engineers/Sappers sent out to destroy them would be real obvious, and very suseptable to MG fires from as far off as 1500-3000m away.

Thse things to not diorama well, other than one bit at a time

All that being said, the Russians really liked their Shermans (A3? the big diesel ones).  They also made sure they had rather large red stars on them, too.

  • Member since
    January, 2018
Posted by Failmailer on Wednesday, January 17, 2018 11:06 AM

Bish

You said you want some suggestion, keep it simple. You could remove the allied tanks, turn the Tiger to face the front, but at an angle, have a crewman in the turret and the rest of the crew, at the back, maybe grabbing a bit to eat. May be add in some suporting Infantry, perpahps with a small trench to the side of the tank.

Make your vehcile the focal point of the scene with everything else helping to tell the story, add more interest and provide life and movment.

 

This isnt off putting at all :) as i said, ive never done it before, and i need suggestions. I actually really like your idea of using just the tiger, ive got a few more scale infantry people that i could put around it as supporting it, and making it about just one vehicle. 

 

as for the book, are you referring to "how to build dioramas" by shepard paine? i found it on amazon, so i might just have to pick it up. ive been making models for a long time, just for fun, rather basically, but now im looking to go to the next level with more detail, more precision and setting up dioramas and things of that nature. Also, as referring to the land lease shermans, im going to look up some photos of them, and replicate the markings and insignias that were used on them and apply them to my sherman, i just kind of followed the decal instructions in the box of the model, but using it as a lend lease tank is a great idea. Thank you guys! 

  • Member since
    January, 2018
Posted by Failmailer on Wednesday, January 17, 2018 11:16 AM

CapnMac82

 

Even at 1/72 scale, the distances are still large; this is why the wargamers use 1/1200, where 100m is only 83mm, or 1/2400 where it's 41.5mm to display tank-on-tank combat.

 

I totally overlooked this...didnt even realize that at the scale of model im using, that the distances involved would make it absolutely massive, and now i see why there are few multi vehicle dioramas..

  • Member since
    January, 2018
Posted by Jet Jaguar on Wednesday, January 17, 2018 1:47 PM
Just a thought, but maybe instead of a single, large, multi-vehicle diorama, build two separate but related single-vehicle dioramas, meant to be displayed together. Model the immediate area around each respective tank as a single scene and "leave out" the intervening hundreds of meters. A diptych of sorts, if you will.

- Bob

  • Member since
    December, 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Wednesday, January 17, 2018 3:49 PM

Failmailer
 
Bish

You said you want some suggestion, keep it simple. You could remove the allied tanks, turn the Tiger to face the front, but at an angle, have a crewman in the turret and the rest of the crew, at the back, maybe grabbing a bit to eat. May be add in some suporting Infantry, perpahps with a small trench to the side of the tank.

Make your vehcile the focal point of the scene with everything else helping to tell the story, add more interest and provide life and movment.

 

 

 

This isnt off putting at all :) as i said, ive never done it before, and i need suggestions. I actually really like your idea of using just the tiger, ive got a few more scale infantry people that i could put around it as supporting it, and making it about just one vehicle. 

 

as for the book, are you referring to "how to build dioramas" by shepard paine? i found it on amazon, so i might just have to pick it up. ive been making models for a long time, just for fun, rather basically, but now im looking to go to the next level with more detail, more precision and setting up dioramas and things of that nature. Also, as referring to the land lease shermans, im going to look up some photos of them, and replicate the markings and insignias that were used on them and apply them to my sherman, i just kind of followed the decal instructions in the box of the model, but using it as a lend lease tank is a great idea. Thank you guys! 

 

A lot of this stuff is easy to overlook, its not always obvious. Some of us on the site, myself included, have experiance in the 12. During 22 years in the British army i spent 12 in an Armoured Inf battalion, so some things just stand out as not looking right.

Jet has a good suggestion making the two seperate dio's which can depicte 2 seperate parts of the same event. Think of it like a movie cutting betwen both sides of a battle.

Of all my vehicle dio's i have planned, i only have 1 with 2 vechiles in one dio, i have thought of others, but as i think of them, they just won't look right.

But your on the right track, its nice to see more people looking into doing diorama's, and yes, that the book, deffinetly grab it if you can.

''I am a Norfolk man, and i glory in being so''

 

On the bench: Rudel Stage 3

                     Academy 1/72nd Apache AH.1

  • Member since
    March, 2012
  • From: Corpus Christi, Tx
Posted by mustang1989 on Wednesday, January 17, 2018 4:29 PM

Am I missing something? I can't see the pictures.

 

Being really stupid IS "the new smart"!!

  • Member since
    September, 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Wednesday, January 17, 2018 4:41 PM

It's possible to take some liberty with actual distances of course, but only by small factors. For instance, if two objects are 100m apart, thats almost 3m in 1/35. You could get away with half of that, but its still a lot of empty space.

It's possible to play games and have the far object at a smaller scale. The challenge there is to control the view, it only works in one direction.

A good diorama is like a cartoon panel- it should have a punchline. It doesn't have to be funny, but it has to be interesting. So for instance a Tiger is a very heavy vehicle. Say it's stopped at a little bridge and the crew is out front looking at the timbers.

Or an aircraft is opened up for maintenance, but the mechanic is searching the truck next to it for a part.

It's one thing to have a jeep on a road, another to have it with a broken axle and the driver shooting it, with markings on the Jeep for the 1st Cavalry. (tip to Bill Mauldin)

Things I would avoid- dead bodies. It works, but it can take the dio into the realm of "green army men", unless the body is the point of the story.

And when you have several nice models in one dio, the viewers mind starts to jump back and forth. Am I supposed to be looking at that swell 109 or that fuel truck? Or both, in which case it's more of a scene than a display of the subjects.

Dios are really fun. Good to be interested and have at it.

  • Member since
    December, 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Thursday, January 18, 2018 2:07 AM

mustang1989

Am I missing something? I can't see the pictures.

 

I can only see them if i log in via firefox, as i do from work. At home, useing Windows 7, they don't show up. I think some of the hosting sites are not on good terms with some of the older windows. My Flickr accounts keep advising me to swicth to somthing newer.

''I am a Norfolk man, and i glory in being so''

 

On the bench: Rudel Stage 3

                     Academy 1/72nd Apache AH.1

  • Member since
    November, 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Thursday, January 18, 2018 10:18 AM

Shep Paine's 'How to Build Dioramas' is a fantastic book. I picked up my copy back in the late '80s and it's all worn, dog-eared, and even has a few paint stains on it. One of the most useful books I've ever bought. As said it's from the '80s so some parts are a little outdated but overall it's still a treasure trove of useful information. 

And if you really want all the vehicles in the diorama you might try having the Tiger knocked out and the T-34 crew looking it over. Or even have them with a combat cameraman posing for a propoganda photo. 

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    January, 2018
Posted by Failmailer on Thursday, January 18, 2018 5:02 PM

Bish

 

 

Jet has a good suggestion making the two seperate dio's which can depicte 2 seperate parts of the same event. Think of it like a movie cutting betwen both sides of a battle.

Of all my vehicle dio's i have planned, i only have 1 with 2 vechiles in one dio, i have thought of others, but as i think of them, they just won't look right.

But your on the right track, its nice to see more people looking into doing diorama's, and yes, that the book, deffinetly grab it if you can.

 

I do like the idea of making 2 seperate ones, that makes alot of sense, considering if i were to make one with just the tiger, i would have 2 more perfectly good tanks just sitting around somewhere doing nothing, may as well do that and take my experience from the first one and be able to apply it and make a better second one! 

  • Member since
    September, 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Thursday, January 18, 2018 6:52 PM

Then there's storage space, and the need for a cover to keep dust off of it. It all speaks for less is more.

 

  • Member since
    November, 2005
  • From: Formerly Bryan, now Arlington, Texas
Posted by CapnMac82 on Saturday, January 20, 2018 1:39 PM

The above is all excellent advice.

 

What profits is in finding photos of situations where more than one vehicle are in close proximity of each other.

Fueling is a good example of when you want a vehicle nearby.  Getting stores--ammo, food, or the like is another.

Now, for your collection of vehicles, if one was knocked out, the other AFV could be using it for concealment while getting fuel or supplies.  Remember that the guys driving a truck full of fuel, or of ammo, even hot chow, are going to be feeling a little bit exposed going out where the armored vehicles are about their business.

Which allows you to add 'tension" to the scene visually.  The tankers can be relaxed, blassé even, and the support dudes could be a bit crouched and jumpy.

Now, I'm cheating here, there's a photo of a Comet hull down behind a very burnt PzKfz IV.  The tank crew is all sitting on the turret very exposed, and having a very Britsh Tea.  There are a couple guys in a bedford lorry all hunkered down worried about bullets while fueling the Comet. 

That would be a large dio.  The tracks form a T, with the lorry a diagonal of sorts.  The panzer is at the peak of a bit of a hill.  Set to a diagonal, as good dios ought, it would be cool, just not small.

  • Member since
    September, 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Sunday, January 21, 2018 1:17 AM

I used to sand table 1/72 Napoleanics. Really big sand table. 

 

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