USAF F-4 markings question.. With a side of USN

 I have Aeromaster 48-764 (1/48 scale) which includes the F4D flown by Steve Ritchie to get his first and fifth mig kills, the aircraft has 6 mig kill stars on the intake. Try Squadron, they might have it.

 I'd love to find decals for Robin Olds' Scat II but I haven't found any either.

 As  far as the ECM pods on Operation Bolo, from as far as I can tell from my research, the pod was carried in place of one of the wing tanks. But I can't determine which one. Another possibility would have been hanging it under the Sidewinders.

Take a look at getting yourself issue #7 of Aerospace Modeler, there is a comprehensive article on building Robin Olds's F-4

You can get this as a back issue direct from AMM.

When Monogram first released their F-4C/D in 1/48 scale, the decals you are looking for was in that kit.  Give me a chance to go through my collection and I am sure I'll find them.

The ECM pods carried by the F-4 were the AN/ALQ-76 and AN/ALQ-87 ECM pods.  The AN/ALQ-76 was carried very early in the war and was replaced by the AN/ALQ-87 which was used until the war ended.  On CAP missions the pod was carried on the inboard pylon.  For strike missions it was carried on the right forward missile well for the F-4C/D and left missile well on the F-4E.  The pylons were needed for ordinance on strike missions.  Only two AIM-7's were carried on strike missions and only on the aft stations.  The forward stations were not loaded as they could not be launched if any thing was loaded on the centerline station.

During Linebacker two types of ECM pods were used.  The AN/ALQ-87 and AN/ALQ-101.  On CAP missions a -87 and -101 pod would be loaded on the inboard pylon.  We had to carry both pods.  Also depending on the type of mission, long range BUFF escort one aircraft would carry the AN/ALQ-87 pod on an inboard pylon and another aircraft would carry the AN/ALQ-101 pod.  Each aircraft in the escort package would have one ECM pod.

During Operation Bolo the biggest threat was from MIG fighters and not SAM's.  I don't think Olds carried any ECM pods on those missions.  The ECM pods were not carried until around '68 when the SAM's became the biggest threat to strike aircraft. 

The purpose of Operation Bolo was to trick the NV ground controllers into thinking the F-4s were far more vulnerable F-105s. They did this by modifying the ECM pod carried by the F-105s to fit on an F-4.

If we want to get picky, I think the majority of the modifications were done to the F-4, not the ECM pod. Google has not been kind in yielding pictures of this configuration.Wiki is the fastest route that confirms it exists. Also, the recent History channel series "Dogfights" mentioned it- but never showed it. I want to say Old's F-4 which I have personally seen in the USAF museum might be in this configuration. However, I am a little thin on photographic proof. 

I looked it up and the pod was a QRC-160. I am sure it was probably an unusual configuration so I will probably have to buy an F-105 kit (which I was going to do anyway) and pirate the QRC-160 out of it. 

paintsniffer wrote:

If we want to get picky, I think the majority of the modifications were done to the F-4, not the ECM pod. Google has not been kind in yielding pictures of this configuration.Wiki is the fastest route that confirms it exists. Also, the recent History channel series "Dogfights" mentioned it- but never showed it. I want to say Old's F-4 which I have personally seen in the USAF museum might be in this configuration. However, I am a little thin on photographic proof.

 There was definately some modifications done to the F-4 to use the F-105 ECM pod.  As far as I've read, some wiring was added and controls were added to the rear seat guy's panels.

 For the modeler, it's just a matter of stealing the pod from an F-105 kit or scratch building one. 

 I'll look at my books again to see if I can find where it was mentioned that they carried only one wing tank and one centerline tank on this mission. 

The QRC-160 is a AN/ALQ-71 ECM pod.  The Google search of Operation Bolo is great reading, but full of errors.  The F-4's did not tangle with MIG-21's but with MIG-17's on the two missions flown during Operation Bolo.  Only one crew fired at a MIG-21 and missed, that pilot being Col Chappie James.  The NVAF had more MIG-17's with very few MIG-21's.  The MIG-21 didn't start appearing in large numbers until after 1968. 

The aircraft flew low and slow, using call signs of F-105 crews.  They flew the route normally taken by the F-105 on strike missions.  CAP aircraft would take a more direct route and join up with the strike package just prior to entering the target area.

What was not mentioned was the F-4's flew to a F-105 base the day before.  They took off and flew a normal F-105 profile all the way into North Vietnam.  This was done incase the NVAF had a radar tracker in the air which they often had.  That was one way they could track F-105 strike packages. 

Also ECM pods did not come into full use until 1968.  F-105 crews did not want to carry the pods and had them removed prior to a mission.  In 1968 when the SAM threat was high, 7th AF made it mandatory that all strike aircraft would carry the ECM pod.  Prior to then, very few ECM pods were seen on any aircraft going north. 

You can not identify the type of aircraft by the ECM pod it carries.  A lot of aircraft carried ECM pods and used in the jammer roll.  Two being the EB-66 and EB-57.  Some F-100, F-105 and F-4's were also used in the jammer roll and would fly along with the strike package.  The jammer aircraft would carry ECM pods as well as chaff and became known as chaff bombers.  F-105's were not the only aircraft flying strike missions at that time. 

Yes, a mod was done to the F-4 prior to the mission.  They were equiped with RHAW and a RWR to detect any radar tracking.  None of these could be picked up by ground or airborne tracking systems.

dmk wrote:

paintsniffer wrote: If we want to get picky, I think the majority of the modifications were done to the F-4, not the ECM pod. Google has not been kind in yielding pictures of this configuration.Wiki is the fastest route that confirms it exists. Also, the recent History channel series "Dogfights" mentioned it- but never showed it. I want to say Old's F-4 which I have personally seen in the USAF museum might be in this configuration. However, I am a little thin on photographic proof.  There was definately some modifications done to the F-4 to use the F-105 ECM pod (which jammed SAM radars, and of course had a unique signature to fool the enemy into thinking the Bolo flights were F-105s instead of F-4s in fighter sweep configuration).  As far as I've read, some wiring was added and controls were added to the rear seat guy's panels.  For the modeler, it's just a matter of stealing the pod from an F-105 kit or scratch building one.   I'll look at my books again to see if I can find where it was mentioned that they carried only one wing tank and one centerline tank on this mission.

The F-4C had the wiring to carry the ECM pod.  That mod was done in 1964 on all of the F-4C's.  The F-4D came out of the factory with that wiring installed.  The inboard pylons and forward missile stations were wired to carry the pod.

As for carrying one 370 and one 600 gal tank, that wouldn't work.  The CL tank would have to be dropped before the forward missiles could be tuned.  Any ECM pod, if carried would be on an inboard pylon and not on an outboard pylon.  Trying to maintain take off balance of a fully loaded aircraft with one 370 removed would be very hard.  Also once the CL was jettisoned the drag on one 370 would cause the AFCS to disengage which would require the crew to fly with ailerons and rudder deflected to maintain level flight.  It would take a lot of weight to offset the difference and a ECM pod would not weigh that much.  This is experience talking and not just something I pulled out of thin air. 

Edit

I just checked the Dash one for the F-4.  The only time a single 370 tank can be carried is when the left outboard pylon is loaded and a Dart Tow Target System. The aircraft is prohibited from carrying only one 370 tank at any other time.  If ordinance is carried on the outboard pylons, the load will be of the same weight and drag coefficient.

berny13 wrote:

The QRC-160 is a AN/ALQ-71 ECM pod.

*Smacks head* 

I am in the early stages of research and I work nights so I don't often function at my best when I get on the internet from work.

Ok that does make the search a little easier.

So the inboard pylon under the Sidewinders would have been the most probable place if I am digesting all this correctly. I am guessing the side doesnt really matter. Was there a preference or was it mostly arbitrary? 

I am still a few weeks from completing the kits currently in the work area and moving the first of the F-4s into the work area. 

Also, DMK.. Thanks for the heads up on the decal sheet but it appears to be out of production or something. Squadron doesn't have it either. I will start shaking a few other trees tonight when I get bored at work to see if I can locate one. 

paintsniffer wrote:

berny13 wrote: The QRC-160 is a AN/ALQ-71 ECM pod.  So the inboard pylon under the Sidewinders would have been the most probable place if I am digesting all this correctly. I am guessing the side doesnt really matter. Was there a preference or was it mostly arbitrary?

It doesn't matter which side you hang it on.

Take a look at the painting on this page. It shows the ECM pod on the starboard outboard pylon.

 Not disagreeing with Berny13, just pointing out that there seems to some widespread confusion about this.

http://user.icx.net/~arlisk/bolo.html

 This page also shows that they did get Mig21 kills:

 http://www.acepilots.com/vietnam/olds_bolo.html

 This PDF is a great read about Olds' career and operation Bolo. He was a very interesting officer.  

That is it, a painting, not an actual photograph.  The author of the painting made several mistakes.  He painted a F-4D, not a F-4C.  He could paint very well but wasn't accurate in many of his paintings.

I did go back and do some research on the type of aircraft shot down that day.  You are correct that they did engage MIG-21's on that mission.  I made a mistake and got my mouth (or typing fingers) ahead of my brain.  I am sorry for any confusion I caused.

However, I can't believe that the ECM pod would be carried on an outboard pylon when the inboard pylons were wired for them.  I have never seen an ECM pod loaded on the outboard station in all of my years working on the Phantom.  Let me go back and check my tech data on configuration. 

Yes Col Olds was quite a man.  I had the pleasure of meeting him when I was in SEA.

Accurate Minitures is producing an F-4 kit in 1/48 scale that they say will have markings for Robin Olds F-4 durring Operation Bolo. The Monogram 1/48 Pro Modeler F-4E kit does have the markings for Ritchie's F-4. As for Cunningham and Driscol, you have two options,,, you can get the Tamiya 1/32 F-4J which has the decals for "Showtime 100" OR you can opt to go to ebay and get the Monogram or Revell 1/48 F-4J Mig Killer Kit also comes with decals for the same but you will need an after market decal set for the walkways.

TCTO 1F-4C-521, replace all Navy style pylons with USAF style pylons (1964).

TCTO 1F-4C-523, Install ECM pod control panel in rear cockpit.  Install ECM pod wiring to the inboard pylons and forward missile wells. (1964)

Information from F-4 Phantom TCTO (Time Compliance Tech Order) listing found in the 1F-4C-4-1.

 Berny, I trust that you are correct more than the painting. And I have never seen an ECM pod on the outboard pylons in any pictures I've seen either.

 It was mentioned in a few places that for Olds' Fighter Sweep mission, the F4s did have 4 Sparrows and 4 Sidewinders, so I guess the F105 pod would have to have been mounted on one of the inboard pylons under the sidewinders.

Just a note...

For those of you who are new to the forums here Berny is the Almighty Ali Babba of Phabulous Phantoms. He served in the Air Force and was over there in Southeast Asia durring Vietnam working on F-4 Phantoms as well as many other Air Force and a few Navy aircraft he has worked on. He knows the Phantom inside and out which is why we call him the Phantom Guru here. Trust him when he gives tech advice and tells what a Phantom had and didnt have. He is the best person here to ask for help when building any varient of the venerable Phantom. When I build my Phantom kits he is the first person I seek out for tech help and advice and he has never been wrong.

I praise Berny and bow before his Almighty Phantom Guruness!

Edit: BTW Berny would you know the corrrct weapons loadout of VMFA-333 F-4J #155526 AJ201 Marines Mig Killer? This is my next project for my Mig Killers II GB. Thanks!

Don't forget though that Col. Olds used a non-standard configuration on the Op. Bolo mission F4s and had to get special permision and special help to do so. That configuration would have not been as authorized in the tech manuals.

 But I do very much appreciate a Phantom Phixers insight. 

This is Ritchie's ship in 1974 when it stopped at Korat for a few hours.

It went on to be assigned to the 18th TFW for a time and I believe it's now on dispay at the Air Force Academy.

The decals for this ship were put out on many kits and should be availableon a sheet or in someone's spare decals box.  If you want, I'll see if I still have a set or two.  I never do Ritchie's ship any way.

When Olds flew with a certain other pilot, who's name I can't remember at the moment, they would call them "Blackman and Robin"

ikar01 wrote:

When Olds flew with a certain other pilot, who's name I can't remember at the moment, they would call them "Blackman and Robin"

Col Robin Olds was the wing commander and his vice commander was Col Chappie James.  They were known as Blackman and Robin, a term coined by Col James. 

berny13 wrote:

That is it, a painting, not an actual photograph.  The author of the painting made several mistakes.  He painted a F-4D, not a F-4C.  He could paint very well but wasn't accurate in many of his paintings. I did go back and do some research on the type of aircraft shot down that day.  You are correct that they did engage MIG-21's on that mission.  I made a mistake and got my mouth (or typing fingers) ahead of my brain.  I am sorry for any confusion I caused. However, I can't believe that the ECM pod would be carried on an outboard pylon when the inboard pylons were wired for them.  I have never seen an ECM pod loaded on the outboard station in all of my years working on the Phantom.  Let me go back and check my tech data on configuration.  Yes Col Olds was quite a man.  I had the pleasure of meeting him when I was in SEA.

My understanding is that USAF Phantoms did carry ALQ-71 pods asymmetrically on the outboard wing pylons early in the war.  In early 1967 Col. Jones Bolt pushed to get the inboard pylons re-wired to allow the pods to be carried there.  Getting approval to modify the pylons was a big deal because they were originally wired for nukes. 

In similiar fashion, Col Olds led an effort to modify the Sidewinder rails on the inboard pylons with spacers to allow TER's to be carried along with the AIM 9's. 

Mark 

Air Master Modeler wrote:

Accurate Minitures is producing an F-4 kit in 1/48 scale that they say will have markings for Robin Olds F-4 durring Operation Bolo. The Monogram 1/48 Pro Modeler F-4E kit does have the markings for Ritchie's F-4. As for Cunningham and Driscol, you have two options,,, you can get the Tamiya 1/32 F-4J which has the decals for "Showtime 100" OR you can opt to go to ebay and get the Monogram or Revell 1/48 F-4J Mig Killer Kit also comes with decals for the same but you will need an after market decal set for the walkways.

I don't doubt his expertise.. He certainly sounds like he knows what he is talking about, and I will take a reference like that which I can ask questions of over a reference book written by god knows who any day.

I don't think Monograms F-4J has been made in a long time. I can't imagine the decals being in great shape if I did pick one up. I will hunt up a Pro Modeler F-4E.. I like the Tamiya kits but I was trying to keep it all in 1/48.

paintsniffer wrote:

Air Master Modeler wrote: Accurate Minitures is producing an F-4 kit in 1/48 scale that they say will have markings for Robin Olds F-4 durring Operation Bolo. The Monogram 1/48 Pro Modeler F-4E kit does have the markings for Ritchie's F-4. As for Cunningham and Driscol, you have two options,,, you can get the Tamiya 1/32 F-4J which has the decals for "Showtime 100" OR you can opt to go to ebay and get the Monogram or Revell 1/48 F-4J Mig Killer Kit also comes with decals for the same but you will need an after market decal set for the walkways. I don't doubt his expertise.. He certainly sounds like he knows what he is talking about, and I will take a reference like that which I can ask questions of over a reference book written by god knows who any day.   I don't think Monograms F-4J has been made in a long time. I can't imagine the decals being in great shape if I did pick one up. I will hunt up a Pro Modeler F-4E.. I like the Tamiya kits but I was trying to keep it all in 1/48.

Yellowhammer did a 1:48 sheet for Showtime 100.  If you can track one of those sheets down it definitely would be a step up from the Monogram kit decals.  Meteor Productions were the distributor for Yellowhammer - not sure what happened since Meteor pulled the plug on their operation.  Might want to check out Ebay.

Mark

paintsniffer wrote:

Air Master Modeler wrote: Accurate Minitures is producing an F-4 kit in 1/48 scale that they say will have markings for Robin Olds F-4 durring Operation Bolo. The Monogram 1/48 Pro Modeler F-4E kit does have the markings for Ritchie's F-4. As for Cunningham and Driscol, you have two options,,, you can get the Tamiya 1/32 F-4J which has the decals for "Showtime 100" OR you can opt to go to ebay and get the Monogram or Revell 1/48 F-4J Mig Killer Kit also comes with decals for the same but you will need an after market decal set for the walkways. I don't doubt his expertise.. He certainly sounds like he knows what he is talking about, and I will take a reference like that which I can ask questions of over a reference book written by god knows who any day.   I don't think Monograms F-4J has been made in a long time. I can't imagine the decals being in great shape if I did pick one up. I will hunt up a Pro Modeler F-4E.. I like the Tamiya kits but I was trying to keep it all in 1/48.

Monograms 1/48 F-4J is still around. OOP but you can still get one on ebay. I just got one for my next project which will be VMFA-333 Shamrocks Mean Marine Mig Killer.

Here is my Showtime 100 which I did from the Monogram kit with Berny's tech advice.

/forums/830703/ShowPost.aspx

She came out great.

berny13 wrote:

Rand, AJ-201 on its MIG killing mission was loaded with four AIM-7E's, four AIM-9G's, a center line tank and two outboard pylons.  Remember that the Navy/Marine outboard pylons were different than USAF style outboard pylons.  Hasagawa has the correct type pylons in their F-4B/N kit and their F-4J kit in 1/48 scale.

Thanks Berny!

As I recall the last time I built the Monogram 1/48 F-4J it did have the right style navy inboard pylons but no outboard pylons unless I cut them from the wing drop tanks. I'll check again to be sure. Also I got the right tires this time. My True Details F-4J/S tires arrived this morning. Just waiting on the Shamrocks decals and the Airwaves cockpit PE set and I am ready to start a lean, mean Marines Phantom.  

Air Master Modeler wrote:

berny13 wrote: Rand, AJ-201 on its MIG killing mission was loaded with four AIM-7E's, four AIM-9G's, a center line tank and two outboard pylons.  Remember that the Navy/Marine outboard pylons were different than USAF style outboard pylons.  Hasagawa has the correct type pylons in their F-4B/N kit and their F-4J kit in 1/48 scale.  Thanks Berny! As I recall the last time I built the Monogram 1/48 F-4J it did have the right style navy inboard pylons but no outboard pylons unless I cut them from the wing drop tanks. I'll check again to be sure. Also I got the right tires this time. My True Details F-4J/S tires arrived this morning. Just waiting on the Shamrocks decals and the Airwaves cockpit PE set and I am ready to start a lean, mean Marines Phantom.

That vont verk.  The Navy/Marine pylons are not like the wing tank pylons.  Take a look at this photo and you can see the difference.

paintsniffer wrote:

finally, I feel confident enough in my skills that I am ready to tackle several F-4s i have been wanting to build for a long time- only to discover I am apparently the only person who wants to tackle said projects. I work in 1/48th scale and I have started aquiring the kits for these models. Does anyone make Decals for the F-4 flown by Robin Olds around the time of operation Bolo? What about the F-4 flown by Steve Ritchie with all the Mig stars on the intake? I did some poking around on greatmodels and a couple other places and managed to come up dry, I even searched by tail number with no luck. Also, A question about operation Bolo.. where did the F-4s involved hang the ECM pod that was pirated from the F-105s (The stock number escapes me) I have seen pictures of the ECM pod hanging from one of the forward Sparrow stations but I can't imagine giving up a Sparrow on a mission designed to ambush Migs. For the side of USN.. Anyone make markings for the F-4 flown by Cunningham/Driscoll on their famous flight? I know Monogram used to make a full kit with those markings.. But given Cunninghams recent legal problems they seem to have all but dropped off the radar. Also, does anyone make a sheet of USAF tail numbers and letters? I want to build a late F-4D from the 906th FG at Wright Patterson AFB in the mid 80s. They had one airplane with two Mig victories and I have the tail number somewhere (but I am not at home so my references aren't nearby). I know I am out of luck on such obscure markings (like the 906th FG) but I was thinking someone might have a sheet of numbers and letters to help out people looking to build the really obscure models. Once again, a search turned up nothing- but I might not be using the right search terms. I considered painting the stuff myself- but I am not that good, or that patient. If such a sheet exists for the USAF.. Does one also exist for the USN? I am building an RA-5C with RVAH-12 from the USS Independence and I need an AC tail code that I don't feel like painting myself.

I located some generic tail number sets in both white and black on Squadron a while back when I too was looking for obscure Phantom decals

berny13 wrote:

Air Master Modeler wrote:  berny13 wrote: Rand, AJ-201 on its MIG killing mission was loaded with four AIM-7E's, four AIM-9G's, a center line tank and two outboard pylons.  Remember that the Navy/Marine outboard pylons were different than USAF style outboard pylons.  Hasagawa has the correct type pylons in their F-4B/N kit and their F-4J kit in 1/48 scale.  Thanks Berny! As I recall the last time I built the Monogram 1/48 F-4J it did have the right style navy inboard pylons but no outboard pylons unless I cut them from the wing drop tanks. I'll check again to be sure. Also I got the right tires this time. My True Details F-4J/S tires arrived this morning. Just waiting on the Shamrocks decals and the Airwaves cockpit PE set and I am ready to start a lean, mean Marines Phantom.     That vont verk.  The Navy/Marine pylons are not like the wing tank pylons.  Take a look at this photo and you can see the difference.

ARGGGG! Ok Berny, any sugestions on how to get the right outboard pylons without buying another kit that comes with them?

I am on a very very tight budget and all finances are tied up for getting into apartment here. I have no cash to spare for awhile.