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RAF B-17 research help needed

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  • Member since
    March 2008
  • From: Ohio
RAF B-17 research help needed
Posted by B-17 Guy on Monday, November 15, 2010 1:17 PM

Hey everybody, I'm in need of some help researching for an up coming B-17 group build on the ARC forums. I plan to build a B-17D with help from the koster conversion kit, and an RAF fortress III of either 214sq or 223sq form No 100 group. I've been having a difficult time trying to find pics of these forts, even on the web, google has brought me next to nothing.

These forts were the radar/radio countermeasures forts, apinted in night camo similar to the lancaster. If anybody has pics, may you please share them?

Thanks in advance

  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Monday, November 15, 2010 1:31 PM

Ah, hell.. Though you wanted help finding something hard... Toast

  • Member since
    October 2007
  • From: Scotland
Posted by Milairjunkie on Monday, November 15, 2010 1:59 PM

No pics as such,  but here are Liberators for the same squadrons which would be in the same scheme & a couple of Forts;

214 http://www.rafweb.org/SqnMark214-216.htm  &  http://www.214squadron.org.uk/Aircraft_Flying_Fortress.htm

223 http://www.rafweb.org/SqnMark223-225.htm 

Wings Palette also has a couple of side views here;

http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/b/439/9

 

  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Monday, November 15, 2010 2:25 PM

According to their website, 214 Squadron didn't fly D models, only Fortress Mks II and III.

For the greater part of the Second World War the squadron served in No. 3 Group and during that time flew many missions against naval and industrial targets in Fortress Europe and played an active part in Gardening or minelaying operations. Beginning operations with Wellingtons in June 1940, it was given Stirlings in the early part of 1942 and continued with these until January 1944, when its tour of duty with No. 3 Group ended.2 Transferred to No.100 (Bomber Support) Group, it was subsequently re-equipped with American Flying Fortress aircraft and employed until May 1945, on radio counter-measures, i.e. the detection and jamming of enemy radio and radar equipment.

223 Squadron didn't get Forts until April of '45.

No 223 Squadron was formed on 1 April 1918 at Mitylene from B Squadron RNAS for operations in the Aegean. Consisting of Nos.559, 560 and 561 flights, it flew bombing and reconnaissance missions in the area until the end of the war disbanding on 16 May 1919.

On 15 December 1936, No.223 reformed at Nairobi from a detached flight of No.45 squadron which has been based in Kenya since 25 September 1935. It remained as a single flight of Gordons and from February 1937, Vincents until re-equipped with Wellesleys in June 1938. On the outbreak of war with Italy in June 1940 the squadron began raids on Italian East Africa from the Sudan. With the main campaign almost over, No.223 moved to Egypt in April 1941, where it became a training unit for converting crews on to Blenhiems, Marylands, Bostons and Baltimores and resumed operations as a bomber unit in May. After moving westwards through Libya after the battle of El Alamein, No.223 arrived in Tunisia in April 1943, and moved to Malta in July for attacks on tactical targets in Sicily and by the end of September was operating from southern Italy. Until July 1944, it carried out interdiction raids on enemy communications in Italy and was renumbered 30 Squadron, South African Air Force, on 12 August 1944.

On 23 August 1944, No.223 reformed at Oulton in No.100 Group as a bomber support squadron. On 19 September it flew its first counter-measure missions with Liberators, adding some Fortresses in April 1945. On 29 July 1945, the squadron disbanded.

  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Monday, November 15, 2010 2:32 PM

That said, Here's the 214 Sqn Fortress Mk III (B-17G) Camo:

ANd Fortress Mk II (B-17F):

EDIT.. Misread your post, Guy... You're wanting the Mark II and II camouflage right?

The above profiles are from 214 Squadron/100 Group... So are you wanting RAF Fortress Mk I camouflage too?

 

  • Member since
    January 2010
  • From: St. Louis
Posted by Shawn M. on Monday, November 15, 2010 2:46 PM

this has been a tough one to research for me as well, Im doing the fortress III for the GB.

I dont know if the 'D's' were used for this, the F and G were for sure.

 

you'll need:

 

exhaust flame dampers

flare chute ports

antennae

etc

 

I love the smell of plastic in the morning

  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Monday, November 15, 2010 2:51 PM

Best drawings I could find of the RAF Fort camo:

 

 

The only references to any "Shark-Fin" Forts I could find in RAF service was for 20 C-models (Mk Is) used early on, and no D-models

  • Member since
    March 2008
  • From: Ohio
Posted by B-17 Guy on Monday, November 15, 2010 10:50 PM

Thanks everyone,

Hans, good stuff there, thanks buddy. The fortress III/B-17G is what I'm looking to build, so the first color profile you posted is pretty much what I'm looking to do, just cant seem to find any pics with out having to buy a bunch of books that I dont really want.

I'm a keep digging. May have come across something good.

  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Tuesday, November 16, 2010 3:03 AM

If you PROMISE (and also swear to Great Fortress your eyes will fall out if you fail to do so)  to mail it back to me when you're done, I have an issue of "Wings of Fame" that has a few more color drawings, including top views, of the No. 214 Squadron Mk IIIs (along with gobs of USAAF, USN, even CIA B-17 pics).. They show all the antennas to a fair degree as well...

OR.. I guess I could pop across the street to Copyworks a scan the pics.. Then you can keep 'em...

A any rate, that issue contains No. 214 Sqn Fortress Mk III and Mk II pics I've never seen anywhere else, as well as many other B-17 pics that're fairly rare... Including some interesting nose armament arrangements on F models.. Remember the F that had a canvas boot panel for twin flex-mount .50s, above the flat bombsight panel and the blister on top of the fuselage for the bombardier's head to poke up into?

  • Member since
    January 2010
  • From: St. Louis
Posted by Shawn M. on Tuesday, November 16, 2010 7:50 AM

if by chance you scan them, may I have a set as well?

I love the smell of plastic in the morning

  • Member since
    March 2008
  • From: Ohio
Posted by B-17 Guy on Tuesday, November 16, 2010 8:43 AM

Hans von Hammer

If you PROMISE (and also swear to Great Fortress your eyes will fall out if you fail to do so)  to mail it back to me when you're done, I have an issue of "Wings of Fame" that has a few more color drawings, including top views, of the No. 214 Squadron Mk IIIs (along with gobs of USAAF, USN, even CIA B-17 pics).. They show all the antennas to a fair degree as well...

OR.. I guess I could pop across the street to Copyworks a scan the pics.. Then you can keep 'em...

A any rate, that issue contains No. 214 Sqn Fortress Mk III and Mk II pics I've never seen anywhere else, as well as many other B-17 pics that're fairly rare... Including some interesting nose armament arrangements on F models.. Remember the F that had a canvas boot panel for twin flex-mount .50s, above the flat bombsight panel and the blister on top of the fuselage for the bombardier's head to poke up into?

Hans my good friend, I would absolutely appreciate scanning them, not saying I would'nt send this magazine back to you, just saying there are too many variables in the mail process to chance losing that info. And I've gotta see these pics, I cant remember the F model your talking about, I've seen some with twins in the nose but dont recall a blister for the bombardiers head! Cant wait to see the pics.  Thanks again Hans.

  • Member since
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  • From: calgary
Posted by toomanyslurpees on Tuesday, November 16, 2010 10:08 AM

You need to get ahold of the book "A Thousand Shall Fall" by Murray Penden, I used it to build a 214 squ. fort an apart from a fair number of decent pictures I used the descriptions of what was done to the planes to guess a bit, things like it mentions that they painted lower parts of some windows black and such. I thought an interesting mod was the waist guns, they put on brackets so you couldn't shoot your own wings and tail. What ever they had in the nose behind the glass was tough to figure, I had to make a best guess.

  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Tuesday, November 16, 2010 11:04 AM

Ok, I'll have Copyworks scan 'em.. Might take a couple days before I get it done, since I gotta go to the VA tomorrow and THAT'S an all-day deal...

 thought an interesting mod was the waist guns, they put on brackets so you couldn't shoot your own wings and tail.

Yeah, noticed that in the three-view drawings too...

 

  • Member since
    March 2008
  • From: Ohio
Posted by B-17 Guy on Tuesday, November 16, 2010 11:11 AM

Hans, whenever you get a chance, no big hurry. Yeah, I hear ya about the VA, hell of a alot of hurry up and wait.

Toomanyslurpees.....More pictures please, they would for good refference material. I'd appreciate as much info on your build as possible, where did you get those decals or did you paint them on? Do you have WIP pics?

 

  • Member since
    January 2010
  • From: St. Louis
Posted by Shawn M. on Tuesday, November 16, 2010 12:04 PM

I second what B17 Guy said, looks like you used the paragon kit or did a bang up job scratch building!

Im a bit confused when it comes to the wait gunners. Some pics I see have no 50's and others do have them?

I'd assume these birds were armed (minus nose and ball turret stations) but what about the radio/radar compartment?

I love the smell of plastic in the morning

  • Member since
    January 2010
  • From: St. Louis
Posted by Shawn M. on Tuesday, November 16, 2010 12:06 PM

the brackets for the waist guns are included in the paragon kit, indicated to go on later staggered waist gun/plexi window'd models.

I love the smell of plastic in the morning

  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Tuesday, November 16, 2010 12:33 PM

what about the radio/radar compartment?

Nope, according to my refs..... Just tail, waist, and the top turret..

  • Member since
    March 2008
  • From: Ohio
Posted by B-17 Guy on Tuesday, November 16, 2010 1:21 PM

Add ball turret to that list hans, at least on some of them.

  • Member since
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  • From: Frisco, TX
Posted by B17Pilot on Tuesday, November 16, 2010 2:19 PM

I'd be interested in seeing that Paragon kit, thought about getting myself.  If'n it ain't much trouble, I'd like a copy of them scans.  IIRC the -Ds where used in the begining of the war, found out they weren't combat ready and then assigned to coastal watch

  

  • Member since
    March 2005
  • From: West Virginia, USA
Posted by mfsob on Tuesday, November 16, 2010 3:39 PM

I have a book at home that I think has some photos of Brit ECM Forts ... I will look tonight.

  • Member since
    January 2010
  • From: St. Louis
Posted by Shawn M. on Tuesday, November 16, 2010 8:49 PM

Here are some detail shots of the Paragon Set I shot:

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/shawnmanny/sets/72157625282845461/

I love the smell of plastic in the morning

  • Member since
    August 2004
  • From: calgary
Posted by toomanyslurpees on Tuesday, November 16, 2010 10:38 PM

Sorry, I don't have any progress shots of that fort, I did that before I ever had a digital camera and it's been carefully packed away in a box for a fair number of years now. I took some pictures of "a thousand shall fall" that I used for reference, I'm stuck at work right now but I'll post them soon.

I didn't use the paragon kit, but it's really not too hard of a conversion provided you score the radom from a lancaster. If I remember everything I did it included: ommision of cheek and radio room guns, blanking off the ball turret, making the brackets in the waist guns, chaff dispenser near the waist guns, that big antenna over the ball turret position (I think that antenna and it's assosiated  equipment may have been way the ball turret was removed, I also remember reading that the bombay was filled with radio equipment. I painted the bottoms of the cockpit side glass black, I scratched the two things at the tail, trying to remember what they are, there's an antenna array and another radar thing underneith the tail gun. I scratched whatever the thing is you can see through the glass nose, an the curtain behind it. There were a couple more antennas on the bottom I guessed on. Decals were lanc decals, the zots set, hacked up to make the right letters.

Interesting planes for sure, I remember reading that it was a little scary flying these things in the bomber stream being that they would have been the only large british plane out there with a large single tail so they were always a little worried about friendly guns not knowing what they were.

I'll post those pics soon. Cheers.

  • Member since
    January 2010
  • From: St. Louis
Posted by Shawn M. on Wednesday, November 17, 2010 8:06 AM

great info toomanyslurpees, thank you!

I love the smell of plastic in the morning

  • Member since
    March 2008
  • From: Ohio
Posted by B-17 Guy on Wednesday, November 17, 2010 8:36 AM

Shawn M.

great info toomanyslurpees, thank you!

Agreed, great info!

  • Member since
    August 2009
  • From: Toledo Area OH
Posted by Sparrowhyperion on Wednesday, November 17, 2010 11:08 AM

I'd love to see those images.  Why don't you just post them on the forum after you scan them?

 

Hans von Hammer

Ok, I'll have Copyworks scan 'em.. Might take a couple days before I get it done, since I gotta go to the VA tomorrow and THAT'S an all-day deal...

 

 thought an interesting mod was the waist guns, they put on brackets so you couldn't shoot your own wings and tail.

 

Yeah, noticed that in the three-view drawings too...

 

In the Hangar: 1/48 Hobby Boss F/A-18D RAAF Hornet,

On the Tarmac:  F4U-1D RNZAF Corsair 1/48 Scale.

  • Member since
    August 2004
  • From: calgary
Posted by toomanyslurpees on Wednesday, November 17, 2010 11:32 AM

I originaly wanted to do E for Easy and try to paint the nose art but the clear radom scared me off, I didn't mention that I had to build up the sides of the Lanc radom to fit on the nose, it hangs down lower on the fort than it does on the lanc. These also show the bottom two windows in that cheek blister blacked out.

I think the smaller antenna at the bottom was a rear looking radar, if I'm remembering right some lancs and halifaxes had this too, can't remember if I knew what the towel rack is for, think it might have been for jamming?

Here's those brackets, sorry, got some shadows here but the thing at the bottom with the paint peeling off is a chaff dispenser (terminology? flare dispenser? you get the idea...) Oh, yeh, also notice there's flame dampers on the 50s

This shows the bottoms of the windows blackd out.

  • Member since
    August 2004
  • From: calgary
Posted by toomanyslurpees on Wednesday, November 17, 2010 11:56 AM

Found I had a couple more pics:

  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Wednesday, November 17, 2010 4:18 PM

Add ball turret to that list hans, at least on some of them.

Perhaps, but not in any refs I have... Just a SWAG on my part,  but It would seem to me that that area of the bomber's fuselage would likely have all the radar/searcch gear located in that area...

  • Member since
    March 2005
  • From: West Virginia, USA
Posted by mfsob on Wednesday, November 17, 2010 6:28 PM

My pics come from B-17 Fortress at War by Roger Freeman. The Brits did get some worn out 8th AF Forts to use for countermeasures work. This first one is the tail of a Fortress III, HB 799/G, based with 214 Squadron at Oulton in September 1944, showing the "Piperack" ECM gear to jam German night-fighter radar frequencies:

 Second is a side view of the same Fort, where you can kind of see the large bulge under the nose for the antenna assembly there:

 

The third shot is an old B-17F - look closely at the tail and you can see the painted-out unit markings, with the same squadron in early 1944. All are in night camouflage. Freeman's book said the main transmitter unit was carried in the bomb bay and could be removed for servicing:

  • Member since
    August 2004
  • From: calgary
Posted by toomanyslurpees on Wednesday, November 17, 2010 7:34 PM

Kinda makes you wonder if any of these tail gunners ever had kids.....

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