F-4 Phantom: Arming and Underwing Stores Question

I presume you are talking about the centerline hard point. Yes there should be a pylon to attach any ordnance to that hard point. MERs, TERs, large bombs, gun pods, etc. are attached to a pylon.

here's a link to a page I made for this question a while back

sites.google.com/.../phantom-pylons

I am not sure if you want to go to the aftermarket for the pylons or not, but, a lot of modelers just cut the tanks off of the outer pylons and mount their MERs on those if they don't want to invest in resin parts. (its not strictly correct, but, it is easiest and quickest)

If you really want the whole pylon set up, I will be glad to lay it all out for you. (most people don't want to go that deep)

Rex

In 1/72, it would be pretty easy to scratch the outboard wing and centerline pylons from strip styrene.

Thanks guys. I suppose for the centreline MER, I could recycle the fuel tank pylon as it would be buried under all the bombs and MER itself. As for the TER, I see from that excellent pic that it mounts on the same kit part I have so, that's good. So, for my build, I'm thinking outboard: fuel tanks, inboard: TER, Centreline: MER. Now, would they have put anything on either side above the TER? Perhaps Napalm or Sidewinders?

I am pretty sure that only sidewinder rails can mount above the TER on Air Force inboard F-4 pylons. I have seen Marine Phantoms with twin Zuni 5" tubes on those stations, but never come across a photo of Air Force Phantoms mounting those.

you can mount LAU-33 twin Zuni on the inboard side on the Sidewinder rails that come in your kit. If you do that, most photos show the outboard rails removed, with the "bolt tubes" bolted on. (they look like huge thick washers)

4 Sidewinders is another popular option. The Napalm carried in Vietnam by Marine F-4s is not the same type as you got in your weapons set. and it is so heavy that it wouldn't go on those rails, it would mount in pairs on those TERs. Empty Sidewinder rails is another option, most of the time a Phantom didn't take off with a full load of Fuel, Missiles and Bombs.

Things had to be adjusted for total take off weight. (and Cat strength/runway length at Chu Lai,,,,,,,,little talked about fact is that those two J-79s would lose power due to age on them as they launched so many sorties, sometimes reducing the loads the aircraft could carry until they were replaced by new/refurbished jets,,they put in more total hours per day than the same engines mounted on a Phantom, after all, and had to do everything from Skyhawks up to Phantoms, and Intruders, same thing, but to a lesser extent with the J-79s on the MOREST Gear end)

Rex

I do have a large amount of Sidewinders in the Air to Air weapons set, so, 4 x Sidewinders is definitely an option...many thanks guys!!

After already spending lots of extra money (almost as much as the kit itself) on AM stuff, I think I will 'cheat' and cut the pylon off the outboard fuel tanks and use them for the MERs. TERs on the inboard with Sidewinders and the centreline tank. NOW, the big question...would they still pack in the Sparrows in the fuselage??

You will get different answers on that Sparrow question. That is because different things were done at different times.

If you are doing an early war USMC F-4B, then you can either put 4 Sparrows in their mounts, or just the front 2. Later on in the war, after a few mishaps and the discovery that the Sparrow wasn't that great anyway, just put 2 in the rear. There are stories of "don't ever put Sparrows in front of the Center tank",,,,,but, in Navair usage, those tanks were punched off before the wild maneuvering started anyway,,,,,,,so, you can just follow what your photos show and put 2 in the rear, 2 in the front, or all 4 on the aircraft.

I am sort of wondering how you are going to fill up 2 MERs and 2 TERs with one weapons set, though,,,,unless you bought more sets? (oops, just looked, 1 set gives you 12 500s and 6 500s with extensions, you have enough)

Early USN Sidewinders on the F-4B were the AIM-9B version that comes in your missile set.

I believe he's doing a USAF Phantom. As Rex said, Sparrow load out will vary, mostly based upon mission tasking when loaded before take off. Another variable is the phase of the air war. During the 1972 air campaigns, it was common for AF Phantoms to carry an ECM pod in one of the forward Sparrow wells, sometimes in both. AF used AIM-9Bs originally, and starting in'67 or so the AIM-9E was carried until late 1972 when the -9J made its combat debut. F-4Ds carried AIM-4 Falcons with horrible results between  1967 and 1972. Just in case you felt like arming yours with something different. The AIM-9D/G was a Navy/Marine Corps only missile, and the 9L/M all aspect multi service Sidewinder did not go operational until many years after the Vietnam war ended.

Ok, scratch the Air Force Phantom remarks. I got your build confused with Silentbob's. he is doing the F-4C/D. I see your doing a Marine Corps Phantom. IIRC, they tended to operate primarily in the CAS role in South Vietnam, and interdiction role in the adjoining areas of North Vietnam and Laos.

You guys are providing some fantastic info...many thanks. Yes Stik..total Marines CAS bird for this one. Yes, Tarn, the set gives you the option to clip off the extension to make 'em regular Mk.82s.

For some reason I was thinking that there were only 6 standard 500 pounders per box.

I should have known better, or looked sooner. (laffing at myself)

Rex, I think we need to get you a red shirt since you have that bomb farm going.

Tarnship: Do you know what a typical load out for a Super Hornet in a Interception mission?

OK, I am home on the desktop and can find you some Marine Phantom mud moving load out photos

This one appears to have 6 x M-117s on three TERs, inboard and centerline pylons

this one outboard pylons w/TERs and Mk.82 Snakeeyes

now here is a real mixed load out- inboard pylons with Zuni twin tubes, and TERs with Mk.81 Snakeeyes and centerline station holding another TER w/napalm cans

outboard MERs with MK.82s, inboard TERs with LAUs, Sparrows and Centerline tank

outboard MERs w/napalm cans, inboard TERs with single LAU

outboard MERs w/partial Mk.82 load, inboard TERs with single LAU

lots of mix and match warloads to get you going here

Inboard TERs w/napalm and centerline gunpod

ok, this sucker is not going far from base, but can put a LOT of hurt on bad guys nearby...

MERs and TERs full of Snakeeyes, and a centerline MER w/3 napalm cans...

Zuni pods on TERs, Zuni tubes, and centerline Mk.82s on MER.

oh yes, and don't feel that just because you put your Phantom full of MERs and TERs that you have to load those all out with max loads. There were "bomb shortages" during Vietnam and as you have seen, less than full load outs were not rare.

Haha, Stik. I don't really have that many weapons sets,,only about 50 sets from all the different manufacturers, so a Red Shirt wouldn't be appropriate for me. I don't really have any fondness for weapons sets, I am just sort of hooked on Hasegawa Jet models,,,,,,and that creates a built in need for things to hang on them, or I would wind up with a whole collection full of Jets carrying Drop Tanks with empty weapons pylons.

I was a Blue Shirt, after all. (mostly, and mostly a driver, at that).  To that end I have over 20 different Naval/Marine tractors,,,,,and to honor the Grapes I have about 20 different Fuel trucks,,,,,I do seem to have a bunch of bomb loading equipment too, though.

I see that some of your photos of the Dual Zuni load have the empty Sidewinder rail on them, Thanks for those shots, I will add them to my collection of "variations".

I am sorry, but, I know very little about the Hornet and Super Hornet loads, those were both "after my time" and I am building the bare minimum of them to fill out my squadron collection (I am not into the TPS/Low Viz deal much) But, Darren, Paul, Joe, etc, might be able to help you.

I have been "greenlighted" to build some sort of "wide and deep diorama display case", as soon as I can figure out how to make a 3 foot by 6 or 8 foot shelf without any sagging potential. She wants me to build a "section of Chu Lai" for my Uncle to come and look at on one shelf.

and there I go getting wordy again, sorry

Rex

oh, a little MER tidbit,,,,,,if you build USAF and put MERs on the outer wing pylons, the MER and pylon are in line with each other, but, the pylon is tilted relative to the aircraft's wing,,,,,,,,,,,,,,if you build USN/USMC or very early USAF, the pylon is perpendicular to the wing, but, the MER is tilted on the MER adapter on the pylon.

you can see that tilt on the VMFA-513 bird with the MJ-1

Rex, quick question- when you say that the MERs were tilted relative to the wing, I take it that you mean a fore/aft tilt, and not side to side?

MJ-1 is the powered loading cart? (okay two questions)

I forgot about the fore to aft tilt,,,,,,that too. (there is also a for and aft shift for different loads)

I really did mean looking at the MER and pylon from the front, the two different services tilt out away from the landing gear. (for gear clearance with the bombs)

So, if you are standing in front of the aircraft, you see that the innerwing TER is "straight up and down" on both services, and the outerwing is "bent" on the Navair MERs (and MBRs), right at the MER to MER adapter line,,,,,while the USAF has all the outerwing parts in a straight line, but, angled out at the wing joint.

lemme go look and see if I have any photos in Photobucket

brb, Rex

geez, I just looked and I don't see any photos on this specific subject on my Photobucket. (I swear I remember posting the angled USAF head on photo online)

I do have a bunch though,,,,,,maybe I need to finish that Navair Notes pylon page?

Rex

Guys, thank you. Even when I don't ask the question I surely do learn a lot.

Thanks again,

Tom

Wow...I'm glad I opened up this thread...way to go guys!! Fantastic amount of info!! So, I've decided (despite the bomb shortage...I'm gonna assume they had lots LOL, cuz, it's just plain wicked) to go with out board MERs, inboard TERs all packing full loads of Mk.82s (I'll cut off the fuse extenders to increase the amount the Hase kit provides), 4 sidewinder AIM 9Bs, 2 Sparrows mounted aft and the centreline tank, cuz, it needs some range. I want this to me a CAS version with air to air capacity.

Rob, I remember reading a paperback some years back I believe was called "Phantom over Vietnam"? Anyway, it was written by a Marine F-4 pilot about his experiences and he mentioned a configuration he called "Super Bomber". You took one F-4, put a MER on the centerline and both outer pylons, a TER on both inner pylons, loaded them all up with MK82 slicks for a total of 24 bombs, and prayed she'd get off the ground! Supposedly only REALLY experienced pilots were allowed to fly the airplane configured like that cuz they were an absolute beast to fly.

Another one I heard of used by VMFA-122 only was 3 20mm gun pods on the two outboard and the centerline pylon. Made a great CAS bird!

Seasick,

 Not sure if you were serious or not, but a safe bet is 2 sidewinders, 1-3 drop tanks, and AIM-120's on the remaining stations.  That said, it's a rare loadout nowadays, they usually carry some form of GBU.

Groot

Tarn-  for your shelving project, think about 1/4 or 3/8 ply with some 1 inch alum angle underneath it, one front and back with the down leg flush with the edge and a couple more evenly spaced front to back, running side to side.  Could do the same with thick plexi, just the front and back angles if you want see through.  Can mount some LED strip lights at the rear edges on the plexi or center on the ply ones.

Straycat, that book was written by our very own John Trotti, a former CO of the Black Knights.

The main criteria for the creation of a Superbomber was that the aircraft had to have a "non-repairable malfunction in the outerwing pylon fuel transfer system" Without that malfunction, the load wasn't approved by Navair, lol. When I bought my Uncle his own copy of that book (I had to, at one time we were both Black Knights together, lol), he roared laughing when he hit that part. He had personally stripped out the fuel line fitting up in the wing that the fuel tank had to attach to, on one aircraft. He was nervous about reporting it, and when he did, he was told "thank you, Corporal" by his Sgt. Those fittings were replaceable, for sure,,,,,,,but, they didn't have any of them at Chu Lai at the time. So, creating a Superbomber became a perfectly legit deal with that airframe. "Goofy Gas" wasn't a part of Navair when it came to the Phantom era.

I do believe that later on during that war, some people fielded 22 and 24 bombs on their aircraft without the fuel malfunction.

Sorry,,,,,Trotti's stories always make me nostalgic, even if I was with them a decade after their voyage on the Valley Forge.

Rex

Thanks for the Idea, GoldHammer.

I was thinking about steel conduit tubing, with the "pretty shelf" on top, and the "working shelf" on the bottom, with edge trimming along the front. Sort of a sandwich deal. And just while typing this, I decided to use your idea instead, with the "pretty shelf" on top, and a clear surface on the bottom of your framing, to let the light shine through. Run angle stock all around the three edges of the "box" to set the shelf onto and attach it to.

Then I can do a "Gomer Pyle" scene with Quonset huts and Airfield stuff on it, then a Chu Lai setting on another "shelf" and a Carrier Deck on another. Maybe a WW II shelf while I am at it.

Thanks, you got the "little wheels in my head" spinning in some different directions, always a good thing, lol.

Rex