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U.S. insignia decals with a gray tint--what are they?

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  • Member since
    August 2014
U.S. insignia decals with a gray tint--what are they?
Posted by Adam148 on Monday, February 9, 2015 12:01 PM

I've noticed some U.S. aircraft decal sheets include both "normal" U.S. insignias and some insignias that have a grayish screen or tint to them.  I haven't had a kit yet with these decals to figure out what they're all about.  Can anyone tell me about them, or give me a search term for what these insignias are so I can do some Googling?

Thanks!

  • Member since
    March 2009
  • From: Yorkville, IL
Posted by wolfhammer1 on Monday, February 9, 2015 12:11 PM

Adam, what vintage aircraft are you seeing this on?  Also, are the tinted ones colored and then greyed, or all grey?  If they are all grey, then they are probably for a low visibility scheme.  Otherwise, I am not sure what you have found.  Could you post a picture?

John

  • Member since
    January 2013
Posted by BlackSheepTwoOneFour on Monday, February 9, 2015 12:17 PM

Most likely you're looking at low-vis insignias found on modern jets.

  • Member since
    March 2011
  • From: Gateway to Cape Cod MA
Posted by jb4406 on Monday, February 9, 2015 12:39 PM

Some US WWII aircraft had their insignia & codes painted in light gray to reduce visibility to enemy fighters. Some Korean war era navy & marine  aircraft also had insignia & codes in blue/gray to reduce visibility for night operations

"The difficult, I do  right away. The impossible will take a little longer."

  • Member since
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Posted by ajd3530 on Monday, February 9, 2015 12:41 PM
If we are talking about WWII era, they grayish tent is to simulate fading of the insignia. The harsh sunlight of the PTO, and the UV rays planes were exposed to at high altitudes of the ETO were not kind to the original colors painted on the aircraft.
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Posted by Adam148 on Monday, February 9, 2015 12:53 PM

Simulated fading or reduced visibility... Here's a link to a photo of a decal sheet:  http://imgur.com/3JBhu8V

  • Member since
    August 2012
Posted by AndrewW on Monday, February 9, 2015 1:22 PM

Looks to me as though the lower aircraft in the photo had a grey background instead of white on his insignia.  May have just been a personal choice of the pilot?

Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne.


  • Member since
    May 2006
Posted by Edgar on Monday, February 9, 2015 1:32 PM

The greyed areas were done solely to make them less visible in combat; the RAF did it to their roundel by either doing away with white, or making the ring too thin to be seen at distance. In the Pacific, when the red centre was deleted, the remaining circle was painted a light blue, rather than white.

  • Member since
    August 2014
Posted by Adam148 on Monday, February 9, 2015 1:39 PM

Okay, so it's a visibility thing.  Interesting how the insignia changed from star-in-circle to stars-and-bars to increase the recognizability (if that's a word) of a U.S. insignia, to then downplaying its visibility.  I wonder if that evolution took place once it was determined that the U.S. was gaining air superiority.

  • Member since
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  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Monday, February 9, 2015 2:18 PM

Yes, it was a camouflage/visibility thing. "Grayed out" stars were most common on USAAF aircraft in the ETO in 1942/1943. By the time the white bars were introduced, first with the red surround, and later with the blue border, the practice was less and less in use. It was usually done at the unit level, such as squadron or group. Heavy Bomber and Medium Bomber units were the most frequent users of the practice. It was not commonly seen on fighters as often due to US fighter types having the opposite problem- confusion with Luftwaffe fighter types. So they tended to use more prominent ID markings as a result.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: North Pole, Alaska
Posted by richs26 on Monday, February 9, 2015 6:32 PM

It was also done with the squadron code letters of the English-based bomb groups starting about early 1943 as I remember from Freeman's "The Mighty Eighth".  The letters changed from Insignia Yellow to gray.

WIP:  Monogram 1/72 B-26 (Snaptite) as 73rd BS B-26, 40-1408, torpedo bomber attempt on Ryujo

Monogram 1/72 B-26 (Snaptite) as 22nd BG B-26, 7-Mile Drome, New Guinea

Minicraft 1/72 B-24D as LB-30, AL-613, "Tough Boy", 28th Composite Group

  • Member since
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  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Monday, February 9, 2015 9:13 PM

That depended upon the Fighter & Bomb Group. When the codes were introduced they were painted on in gray, white or yellow. Again it was quite dependent  upon the sub unit such as Wing or Group, rather than at Air Force level. For example, the 91st Bomb Group kept their Yellow codes on OD B-17s all thru the war.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    February 2015
Posted by Sgt Rock Fury on Wednesday, February 11, 2015 5:45 AM
It was a practice started in the 8th Af on B-24s... The fuselage insignias had the star & bar "greyed out" to deny the Luftwaffe pilots an "aiming point" on flank-attacks. It subsequently went on to be applied to all types, but sheer numbers prevented it happening to all aircraft in the 8th, so instead of a general order, it was left to individual squadron & group COs as an option.

This followed the removal of the roundel-star insignia from all US aircraft from the right wing upper and left wing lower surfaces.

This practice was also to deny enemy pilots an aiming point of "Shoot between the stars" to hit the cockpits during a high or low-side deflection attack...

The Star & Bar insignia was put back on the lower right wing of some P-47s after D-day to increase recognition for Allied anti-aircraft gunners due to the Jugs being utilized heavily in ground attacks ("Rhubarbs") in proximity to Allied ground units.

The red center on early US insignia was removed just prior to the Battle of Midway, to preveant friendly-fire incidents by gunners mistaking the red center for Japanese hinomaru. Ted Lawson mentioned this in his book, "Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo", as an explination of why Japanese civilians were waving at his B-25 as they flew overhead. (More likely that they just assumed any aircraft over Japan were theirs, though)

The addition of the red surround in 43 was short-lived because of PTO airgunners' reports of them still "seeing red" and firing on other US planes in the heat of battle (That's also where the expression of "makes me see red" came from)
  • Member since
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  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Wednesday, February 11, 2015 12:00 PM

USAAF aircraft in the MTO and ETO did not routinely have the stars on both upper and lower wing positions in 1942/1943 prior to introduction of the white bars and red outlined insignia in June 1943. That was a USN PTO marking practice. AAF aircraft in the PTO were usually operating under a Navy area command, and as such had to conform to their regulations. Check out Dana Bell's Air Force Colors volumes I, II, & III for a full breakdown on what marking practices were in place at what time period and where.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    February 2015
Posted by Sgt Rock Fury on Sunday, February 22, 2015 2:28 AM

One thing I've missed seeing any photos of, is one in which the greyed-out insignia is applied to the upper or lower wing... Was it confined to just fuselages?  

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Sunday, February 22, 2015 3:45 AM

Upper wings as well.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    November 2003
  • From: Naples, FL
Posted by tempestjohnny on Sunday, February 22, 2015 6:21 AM

I believe this is what grayed insignia is being talked about. The bottom plane has grayed insignia on fuselage and wings

 

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Sunday, February 22, 2015 3:00 PM

Here we go.... (now that i have a real computer and not my phone...)

compare the stars on the fuselage to the later added bars

even the 1st Air Division triangle appears to be grayed out on this 306th BG B-17 in Summer 1943. 

and on some B-26s

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: North Pole, Alaska
Posted by richs26 on Monday, February 23, 2015 1:31 PM

Stik, the first B-17 is one from the 1st AD, 303rdBG, while the second B-17 is from the 305th BG, 1st AD, before it went to Depot, and sent to the 381st BG when it was lost on October 14, 1943, Black Thursday.  "Viscious Virgin" also had the triangle grayed out as can be seen by the white plane in squadron letter.  The 303rd used white when they could not get Insignia Yellow paint.

WIP:  Monogram 1/72 B-26 (Snaptite) as 73rd BS B-26, 40-1408, torpedo bomber attempt on Ryujo

Monogram 1/72 B-26 (Snaptite) as 22nd BG B-26, 7-Mile Drome, New Guinea

Minicraft 1/72 B-24D as LB-30, AL-613, "Tough Boy", 28th Composite Group

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Monday, February 23, 2015 2:43 PM

I had a different version of this image on my last post... it shows on the desktop but not on my laptop, so in case it did not show on anybody else's device, I'll try it again. I believe these re 91st BG B-17s in late 1942 or early 1943.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

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