Need your advice on which Alclad to use

This thread came in just in perfect timing.

Im an Armor guy but I will start my firtst plane.

A P47 from Mexican WWII 201 Squadron. I was also wondering what color of Alclad use. I will go with brushed aluminum and airframe to have different tones.

Hopefully everything will go OK.

Same here, I use it for everything including acrylics.

Lacquer thinner is my main cleaning solvent for the AB.

echolmberg

Does one use lacquer thinner to clear the airbrush out afterwards?

Thanks,

Eric

Yes. And I use Aqua Gloss and it just barely affects the metallic finish, not near as bad as Future. 

Does one use lacquer thinner to clear the airbrush out afterwards?

Thanks,

Eric

I have not used aqua gloss yet, I tried future and otther clear coats over alclad but they all took away from the "depth look" of the alclad. The Alcald clear ALC 312 semi matt with good success. I don't but different alclad clears either. The one bottle can do may planes.

I let the matting agent settle to the bottom, decant some of the clear and then mix different "gloss levels" with it.

Theuns

Theuns

Aqua gloss or their regular solvent clear will dial down just a tad the shine in the paint. It happened with my Voodoo. I even shot an email to Alclad asking this very same question and the gentleman stated that both products will reduce the shine effect ever so slightly.

As to applying decals over unsealed Alclad,  you are correct as I have done the same and even used Solvaset which is very strong and has not damaged the finish.

MC, I look forward to your attempts at the oil canning :-)

I have filled all the Sabre plans on my comp, I need to find time to actually get to it, just got to back now from rigging a Tailorcraft controll system...

Theuns

Thanks Don,

I knew you would have a idea on how to do that, also Goldhammer suggested using " a very small dowel or pencil eraser with some rubbing compound on some alum or alclad paint for the "overlap swirls"." which may work as well.

Theuns

The main thing that I took out of from that link was gouging, sanding and polishing the plastic to simulate the wrinkles. The author may not have gotten correct reason why they are there, but I'm going to try his method of duplicating them.

By the way, I am (or was) an Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic as well. I still have the license for that and Private Pilot (just non High Performance VFR),  though I haven't worked on, or flew any AC in several years, the principles are the same. So I understand you explanation mate, and don't disagree.

Also we are both apparently RC flyers. Hows those plans I sent you (F86?). Have you been able to work on them at all, or just look at them?

Smudges are easy, haven't figured out a way to do wrinkles yet.  I do smudges either as a thin, translucent coating with airbrush, as  example exhaust stains, or for a little heavier stains I dry brush.

Sorry mate I really don't know how to replicate that

I read through the link and I was a little confused about the thing that they say the holes in the skin and the former/stringer being different sizes. I fail to see how this would pre-stress the skin. If you wanted to do that the holes i  the skin should be "size" and the holes in the former a tad larger to pull the skin into the hole as such.

If the holes are not the same size , the rivet will have a "step" somwhere in the joint as it is squeezed and this is a weak point that could fail the fastner....

I was taught that you want the hole to be as close to size as you can get it to make sure the rivet seats well when driven. The thickness of the skin is so thin that you cant even countersink it when using flush rivets, you need to first use a toll to make a dimple in the skinn and former to get a good joint.

The buckling and wrinkling of the skin is totally correct, even a new Cessna out of the factory has them.

As far as I have it the stressed skin engineering is that the skin also bears some of the load flexing/bending in the flight, not just the spars and stringers. Not like a rag wing where all the laod is taken  up by just the internal srtucture.

If I have this wrong someone please correct me :-)

Theuns

Theuns,

Do you know a way to simulate that swirly pattern? The stressed skin effect is actually quite involved, which I'm just nuts enough to try on my 51. stressed skin

I know what you mean with the uneven swirly look. If they kept on pollishing it will look like a mirror, but the way the pollisher "cuts" with the compound it gives the swirly look.

It is as if the pollishing has not been fully completed yet.

Raw alclad sheet has a very even tone to it when new so it would not be the metal itself giving that look.

Theuns

Theuns

MC, the thing you talk about is the thin metal "oil canning" between the formers /stringers. The proccess of riviting also slightly stretches the metal.

The "swirly" look is the way the pollisher pollished the metal, I have seen this on the Beech 18 where I worked.

Theuns

No, for the oil can look, it will take some modification to the surface, which I'm going to try. The smudges and streaks are what I was curious about. I'll try to find a better pic to put up.
I think were on the same page with the swirly look though. 

Just as a matter of interest, I have tried the alclad gloss black primer but it really didn't work for me.

I prime the model as per usual with tamiya fine primer , sand it with 4000 MM, then shoot on gloss black enamel (tamiya), pollish that with 12000 MM and it is ready for alclad.

I also decal straight over the alclad, no gloss coat needed, I just seal it aterwards to protect the paint, agian I tried different clearcoats but only alclad clearcoat doesn't take away from the look of alclad.

The biggest thing with alclad is to have a flawless finnish, and shoot it on in thin coats, the first 1-2 you can hardly see. Usually at 12-15 psi.

Clean the AB with lacure thinners afterwards.

@ MC, the thing you talk about is the thin metal "oil canning" between the formers /stringers. The proccess of riviting also slightly stretches the metal.

The "swirly" look is the way the pollisher pollished the metal, I have seen this on the Beech 18 where I worked.

Theuns

In all seriousness, I think I've learned more about the various shades of Alclad in this thread than I have from reading similar topics in other forums.  I can't thank you guys enough.

Today after work, I'm going to pick up a couple of new bottles of the stuff.  Interestingly enough, I need to stop off at a local train hobby shop.  They carry the stuff.  The only other place I could get it in town was at  a real Ma & Pa hobby shop that used to be in the area but they, like so many others, closed their doors not too long ago.

Eric

Wise plan.  

Thank you again for the wonderful input.  After reading them all, I have finally decided what I'm going to do.  I'm going to send my P-47 to Theuns for him to paint.

Eric

Beautiful work Theuns.

Here's my question, and perhaps Don can answer this.
How can one get the smudges, aluminium imperfections, streaks etc. that seem to be on NMF AC?
Here is a picture of Precious Metal however I could'n fine exactly what I was looking for. Hoping you know what I'm talking about. 

I have only used pollished allu and airframe allu (a little dark allu aswel) over gloss black enamel with good success.

I have also learned that as you build it up is is initially very dark and the more coats you shoot on the lighter and more shiny it gets.

I will shoot 3 light coats on, mask off the areas off I want to be dark than shoot more on.

This way you get a nice tone difference without having to buy different paints and the difference is more subtle.

If you want a real shiny plane seal it all with alclad clear gloss, if you want to tome it down then used the light sheen clear......right down to semi matt for a dull look.

Here is my Hun in airframe allu over gloss black with some pannels masked darker

Then dulled down with semi matt...

I also experimented with airframe allu straight onto pollished plastic on mi MiG and it gave a much lighter look.

Don,

The 104 was my first Alclad experience, so I may have put too much on, I tend to over apply paint rather than under. A flaw that I'm still working to correct, regardless, both colors are very sparkly.

I have had the opposite experience. I can get a mirror-like finish with the polished aluminum over gloss black, much more polished than with the straight aluminum.  However, to do so you must put it on VERT thin  Too thick a coat really dulls down the shine, so I dial the flow way back and lay the stuff on slowly.  You need to know when to stop- when you reach maximum shine.

echolmberg

If you can recall, what was the main shade of Alclad you used on your -104?

Edit. On second thought, the 100 was  Polished Aluminium mixed with White Aluminium. The drop tanks are still Aircraft Aluminum because they would not be weathering as much, at least in my mind.
I was 1 at the time.

So many models!  Never enough time!  Plasticjunkie, I love your F-101!  I truly have a soft spot in my heart for that plane.  I've got one in my stash that I am just chomping at the bit to build.  Now all I need is the time to get to it.  Ugh!

Steve, THANK YOU SO MUCH for the side-by-side comparison of the techniques!!!  That is exactly the kind of thing I was hoping to find somewhere somehow.  And I'm still so very happy that I was able to help out in some teeny tiny way by contributing some decals for your F-104.  If you can recall, what was the main shade of Alclad you used on your -104?

JayJay, thanks for the info on the kit!  I think the last P-47 I built was the bubbletop kit from Hasegawa.  It's been probably a good seven or eight years since I built that and I remember it went together quite nicely.  Right now I'm working on the Monogram kit.  I bought it off a friend of mine who was asking for far less than what Mr. Hasegawa was asking.  Ha-ha-ha!

Eric

Eric'

Ty for the compliments on my P-47-d  It 's a Hasegawa kit and i really like them. The fit iand details are very good.

echolmberg

And should I go with a black undercoat?  White?  Something else?  I'd love to hear your opinions on this

Eric,

Here are 2 examples of my Alclad experences.
#1 the F104, you were so kind to supply decals for, was shot with a gloss black (MM acrylic) base.

Next is an F 100 done with a mix of gloss black with gloss grey sprayed in areas over the black to make it look a little weathered. That's with just the Alclad over the base black and grey, no clear coat. You can really tell the difference with the two different colors. By the way, the fuel tanks were just gloss black base only.

Steve
 

I used Testors gloss black enamel in the small bottle under Alclad polished aluminum on my old Monogram Voodoo. If you spray light coats to let the black come thru it will be shinier but if you spray slightly heavier coverage the shine will be less but still retain the metallic tone. I then shot some Alclad Aqua Gloss over which diminished the shine just a tad making it look well maintained but not a mirror finish.

I then shot some panels with other shades to get some variation. As you can see, the finish looks well maintained but not like a mirror except the fuel tanks which received a lighter coat letting some of the black peek thru creating a mirror finish.

It won't attack the Tamiya primer. The gray primer will be fine as long as you don't use a high shine color for the aluminum.

Thanks to everyone for the great responses!  They've definitely been supportive and have given me more of a determination to make this work.

I've seen a couple mentions of the use of a clear top coat.  Is there a specific one I should use?  I've heard that Alclad has a glossy one but is that the one I want to use for the type of finish I'm hoping to capture?

Also, I have primed the model with Tamiya's grey primer from the rattle can and it's as smooth as a baby's you-know-what.  What's everyone's thought on using Alclad on top of it.  I know that Alclad can be pretty hot but will it attack the Tamiya primer?

Again, thank you all for the great insight!

Eric

(Edit)  JayJay, that's a great looking Thunderbolt!  Which kit manufacturer is that?  Is it the Hasegawa one?