C-47 Skytrain "Whiskey 7" Confused colors?!

So do you want to build a replica of the restored aircraft, or an authentic D-Day C-47?

GMorrison

So do you want to build a replica of the restored aircraft, or an authentic D-Day C-47?

 

As she looks currently, but it's looking to be a difficult task.  Matching the colors might be impossible, lol.  I've been trying to find more information.  I know she was registered as a civilian aircraft at some point. 

I drive down to Geneseo every year and I never thought about W7's paint job till I saw your post. I'd say you went the correct route contacting the museum. They're a good bunch of folks down there and will probably have an answer for ya! 

Keyda, you can only try to replicate the color at one point in time.  OD fades badly.  The last photos show what OD looks like with a gloss coat, it will go very dark.  I painted this AirfiX C-53 with Model Master 2050 ANA 613 Olive Drab, but it also may be 2051 Faded Olive Drab.  Model Master also had a 1711 Olive Drab 34087.  You might do some test panels and see which one you like the best.  Tamiya's Olive Drab is pretty dark, XF-62.

I go with what looks best for me.  My color vision is not the best, but in that aspect women are usually more adept than men anyway.  Make it look good to you and nevermind the rest of us.

Hello!

Having the real thing as a reference, even if it's far away, is as good as it gets. Now you probably don't want to go down there and compare paint chips. First question would be: how good do the photos reflect the colours? If you say the photos generally look good to you, then you can work with them. In this case don't mind what the regulations are saying, match some colours of your own. Start with ones that you have - I think you already did paint your own paint chips, that's the way to go. If you can't find anything ready mixed then do your own mix - like mix in some red or orange to the OD that you have, that should give you the brown shade we're seing in the pictures. It's worth noting that "Olive Drab" isn't called that for nothing - it's called this way because it's not very green, otherwise it would be olive green.

As for that 3H it would probably be best to mask it and spray some tinted gloss varnish to achieve that "painted over markings" look.

Your model has a potential to look very interesting with all those patches of different colours all over it. Good luck with your build and have a nice day

Paweł

rocker, I never realized it until I opened the kit I bought and they called for O.D.  I can clearly tell by looking at pictures that Whiskey is not O.D.  I think she was painted before NWM got her, so they aren't too sure on the colors either.  What they sent me is circa 1942.

jeaton, I think I'll have to hunt around for some paint that looks close.  That's a nice looking build you have there!  After looking around for more info I think the plane was painted the wrong colors before the museum got it. 

Pawel, If all else fails I can make some chips and take them with me to the museum either when ever I get the extra gas money, or the air show this summer.  I don't think I could just go with O.D and be happy with it, lol.  I will have to hunt around for paints that are close, and probably mix my own. 

Whenever I think something is going to be a piece of cake, lol.

Maintaining "accurate" colors on a warbird (vehicles too for that matter) is always a trade off between costs, storage conditions, new paint formulations, and time. The next time you see her, she might look totally different to you. Rather than fuss about getting the colors just right, I'd focus on any little changes they had to make from the 40s spec to fly her in today's environment, usually different antennas, etc.

I spent six of the best months of my life volunteering at NWM almost full time in the mid-80s. Did engine changes on the B-17, helped taxi the PBY, crank started the P-40. Still partially deaf in one ear from lying behind the number 3 engine while we tried to set the cockpit engine controls on the B-17. Also witnessed the internal politics and personal issues that eventually pulled the group apart. 

Keyda

The scheme in the shot of it in the air you found is awesome: reddish brown on top of the fuselage and horizontal stablizers, OD on the sides of the fuselage and ailerons, green on the rudder, and a kind of pinkish grey on the tops of the wings.

You can tell that it's similar, if not the same, in your snaps.  

If it were me—not that I'm an expert—I'd try to mix those colors by eye from those references, probably with a color wheel nearby to help orient, aiming to get the general effect right and not worrying too much about whether it's exact—color in photos isn't reliable, and both the light (overcast vs sun, etc) and surroundings can really affect how you perceive it. But if you get it anywhere close, that would be a knockout model.

I'm pysched to see where you take this.

Best

-J

Keyda,

The old 1940s paint and the modern aircraft paint, e.g. Dupont Imron, look very different even if mixed to the same hue as the old paint. The ANA paint colors cited are generally correct for the time period, but could also be dark green instead of OD. If you are doing a model of the CURRENT aircraft you may have to mix the colors to match your "EYE". Try the ANA OD from Model Masters for example, and put a semi-gloss coat over it and see what it looks like.

Keyda in addition to the points above there is a big difference in olive drab throughout the years. i built the atomic cannon last year and after spraying a coat on the main trailer learned about the difference. The OD from the Korean era was pretty close to that dark OD i see on the plane. I’m traveling now and don’t seem to have any pics readily available. Will look for them this weekend and post for comparison. If there’s no one at your lhs that knows the shades look up wings wheels and waves, ask for Mike and he can cover all the shades and maybe help match colors.

WillysMB, Too bad that politics got in the way of enjoying those old birds.  It's amazing to me just to look at them.  Hopefully this summer I can spend more time at the museum, and maybe even take a flight in Whiskey.  It is something I will surely never forget.

tempestjohnny, She's a hodge podge of colors!  Gives her a lot of character. 

Johnny1000, That is one of the better pics I found online.  There are a lot of pictures, which is great.  I can probably get just about every angle needed to map the colors.  I'm going to try my best to replicate her.  I will have a few oppurtunities to see her this summer, and get more detailed pics.

rangerj, thanks I will give that a try!  I'm sure to be doing a lot of test swatches, lol.

TheMongoose, thanks!  I think I'm going to dig around at the LHS and see what colors he has that look close, maybe even have a gander at Hobby Lobby too. 

Keyda - look into acquiring some Mission Model paints Olive Drab. I know they have it both regular and faded Olive Drab. They say Mision Models are easy to airbrush (straight out of the bottle) and pretty close to accurate WW2 colors

Keep in mind, not all Olive Drabs are alike by paint brands.

I feel your frustartions. It is going to very difficult to replicate the exact hodge podge patchwork of colors of Whiskey 7 as in the condition she's in now. Good luck and am looking forward to seeing what you can do.

Keyda,

In looking at your pics when she was H3, I'm wondering if someone went to the armor paint locker for the olive drab?  US Army OD was a lot darker than the USAF OD.  It also tended to fade towards the brown end of the spectrum.  If you want to start off with Army OD, the simplest way to do it is the Army way, equal parts yellow and black.  Then go from there.

Just some thoughts. When built, W7 was most likely painted in the pre ANA colors of Dark Olive Drab 41 over Neutral Gray 43. The numbers were the reference numbers for the pre ANA colors used by the USAAF/USAAC. The ANA colors really did not hit factories until 1944, around the same time as the use of camouflage paints was discontinued. And the stocks of previous colors were used up before using the ANA colors.

Dark Olive Drab 41 was a darker and browner shade of OD than ANA 319, or the current FS 34087. And of course there was the issue of parts made by subcontractors or the differences between dope on fabric and paint on metal.

Quite a can of worms!  I did some digging for my own C-47 model and came up with different answers.  It depends on when you're protraying this aircraft.  Try looking up images of the squadron, or information on same for hints as to how the aircraft was painted.  They did vary.

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=D-Day+C-47+Skytrain&id=A970AA011973F4FFCC90DCA02F7C7B3DBA01E4B2&FORM=IDBQDM

https://amcmuseum.org/at-the-museum/aircraft/c-47a-skytrain/

http://www.airbornetroopcarrier.com/c47markings.html

"W7" belonged to the 316th Troop Carrier Group, 37th squadron stationed at Cottesmore. 

http://www.6juin1944.com/veterans/rice.php

Gary

PS> Something else to explore.  :)

http://www.6juin1944.com/assaut/aeropus/en_page.php?page=docu

Interesting links... so W7 helped deliver the 505th to Normandy. 

The 505’s portion of the Normandy Invasion was covered in the book and movie The Longest Day. A portion of F Co, 2/505 was dropped into St Mere Eglise during the night drop. All told, the 505 actually made one of the best concentrated drops of that night. But as was the case with F Co., it was hardly as intended.

Thanks, Stik!  Hopefully Keyda will find the information useful.  Meanwhile, if you want to know where your aircraft was located in formation (and the pilot), you can click on the "Serial" link on the left for each mission (as long as you know its serial number).

http://www.6juin1944.com/assaut/aeropus/en_page.php?page=para

Someday... we need to do a C-47 group build.  Not sure there's ever been one here.

Gary

GAF

Thanks, Stik!  Hopefully Keyda will find the information useful.  Meanwhile, if you want to know where your aircraft was located in formation (and the pilot), you can click on the "Serial" link on the left for each mission (as long as you know its serial number).

http://www.6juin1944.com/assaut/aeropus/en_page.php?page=para

Someday... we need to do a C-47 group build.  Not sure there's ever been one here.

Gary

 

 

I'm game if you're up for it.

Me too. Even have one in the stash.

GAF

Thanks, Stik!  Hopefully Keyda will find the information useful.  Meanwhile, if you want to know where your aircraft was located in formation (and the pilot), you can click on the "Serial" link on the left for each mission (as long as you know its serial number).

http://www.6juin1944.com/assaut/aeropus/en_page.php?page=para

Someday... we need to do a C-47 group build.  Not sure there's ever been one here.

Gary

 

 

W7, by serial number, was lead aircraft for Serial 18, Mission Boston, carrying 3/505 PIR to DZ “O”.

Wow, thanks for all the information guys!  I've been busy the past few days handling the final bits and what not when it comes to my Dad's house.  Everything should be done and taken care of Friday, I'll have some time to sort through info after that. 

I'd certainly be in a group build as well! 

Put my hat in the ring for a group build if it comes together. My father in law was a Pathfinder. It was a real pleasure to get together with him and some of the guys in his outfit and hear their stories. With the research sources above, it would be fun to give my wife a model of the AC her dad jumped from.

Mike

Which unit was he a pathfinder for Mike?

Been looking for an excuse to buy the new Airfix C-47. I'm game.

stikpusher

W7, by serial number, was lead aircraft for Serial 18, Mission Boston, carrying 3/505 PIR to DZ “O”. 

It's nice to have such information available, and to get a brief snapshot into the history of a machine that served such a gallant purpose!  

And just for inspiration --

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yE_CT0n1kqo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lamYp2WsJVA

Gary

Keyda81

rocker, I never realized it until I opened the kit I bought and they called for O.D.  I can clearly tell by looking at pictures that Whiskey is not O.D.  I think she was painted before NWM got her, so they aren't too sure on the colors either.  What they sent me is circa 1942.

jeaton, I think I'll have to hunt around for some paint that looks close.  That's a nice looking build you have there!  After looking around for more info I think the plane was painted the wrong colors before the museum got it. 

Pawel, If all else fails I can make some chips and take them with me to the museum either when ever I get the extra gas money, or the air show this summer.  I don't think I could just go with O.D and be happy with it, lol.  I will have to hunt around for paints that are close, and probably mix my own. 

Whenever I think something is going to be a piece of cake, lol.

 

Also you might want to try some of the IWM over in England.  I know they refurbish planes to technical specs that was used during the war.  

Keyda, you probably know this, but Museum operations are always way under funded.

I can't speak for this one, but for one I'm affiliated with, all of the volunteer enthusiasm can't ever make up for hard facts of financial life.

If your ship was 5-O Ocean Gray in the war, and the Navy gives you a stock of 5-H Haze Gray, chances are are the ship is gonna get painted Haze Gray all day.

And if it's only enough to cover the parts that are the worse for wear, that's what you do.

Peaches

 

 

Keyda81

rocker, I never realized it until I opened the kit I bought and they called for O.D.  I can clearly tell by looking at pictures that Whiskey is not O.D.  I think she was painted before NWM got her, so they aren't too sure on the colors either.  What they sent me is circa 1942.

jeaton, I think I'll have to hunt around for some paint that looks close.  That's a nice looking build you have there!  After looking around for more info I think the plane was painted the wrong colors before the museum got it. 

Pawel, If all else fails I can make some chips and take them with me to the museum either when ever I get the extra gas money, or the air show this summer.  I don't think I could just go with O.D and be happy with it, lol.  I will have to hunt around for paints that are close, and probably mix my own. 

Whenever I think something is going to be a piece of cake, lol.

 

 

 

 

Best I can do
http://www.warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=64727

 

 

Also you might want to try some of the IWM over in England.  I know they refurbish planes to technical specs that was used during the war.  

 

The link to the Warbird Information Exchange discussion is a bit misleading. It refers to ANA and FS colors. If you look at the drawing in the first post, it specifies OD 41 and NG 43 as the colors. Those colors were changed and replaced by the ANA colors. Unfortunately, it also links the 41/43 colors to the current FS colors by Olive Drab & Neutral Gray names, which are not the same. At least according to Dana Bell’s books and work on that subject.