AVG P-40 color scheme

According to my research they were painted the U.S. equivalents of british dark earth and dark green over sky grey.

http://www.jpsmodell.de/dc/shemes/usaac_avg_e.htm

This is a usefull site for A/C collor schemes link

http://www.jpsmodell.de/dc/luft_e.htm

 

jwb, I looked and read some of that forum thread you posted. Man, is'nt that color question a can of worms.

I'm going to tread lightly.......

Yes they are US equivilans to the British standard, but there is so much debate on the colors used. eg. sky to the british was that light green/gray/whatever it is color, but sky to the US was a light gray. At the time it is speculated that it may have been US navy light gray A/N 602 (?) and others say closer to med sea gray. And so on for the dark earth and green.

Noted that several referances refer to specific colors from the period and they would have been in the US inventory. As the other thread says, they were different too. This has been thrown around for years. This was this color and that was that color.

 I don't have a clue anymore on who, if any, may be right. There are too many posibilities to make one that acurate. I gave up and used the poly scale paints in the US WWII line. If anyone wants to complain about my choice of paint, I will usher them to the nearest wall and thay can complain to it!

Hope it helps a bit

No kiddin' DrewH, there seems to be alot of confusion on what the AVG planes were painted. Talking to some oldtimer that I was related to,(my Dad) there is more want to be P-40 Tigers painted than there ever was the authentic jobs. If I remember right it was close to a Spit scheme, but the paint job didn't make it fly better. The weather dulled it, B/W photos didn't really capture anything but tones of gray. And I've seen more versions of the teeth pattern than a re-run of I Love Lucy.......

I think this one is gonna be one of those mysteries lost to time like Roman Legion tunics, what color were they?  Definative findings indicate.... I hope someone can dig up a work order or something to settle this one.  I would have never imagined that this could have become such a hot topic. I would just guess at the brit sky.  It just seems likely to me... even though I don't have any basis for that.  In the end I think you'll just have to guess.

I  have a lot of respect for Erik Shilling.

http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/quarters/9485/P-40C.html

On the teeth patterns- you are right, gulfstreamV. Another thing a few hours of research showed was that the teeth patterns varied a bit too.

I'm thinking that (short of finding a color photo of high quality) if I fade the earth color and add just a hint of reddish tent, that will cover the brown (or green faded to a brownish color), and then fade out the RAF dark green quite a bit, that will cover the upper surfaces.

The lower surfaces I guess will just be a tossup. Maybe I'll see what happens if I mix 1/3 sky, 1/3 gray, and 1/3 azure? LOL

This page has several good articles by R.T. SMith, Disck Rossi and Erik Schilling, as well as others.

And in confused me even more.

Though little is said of the coloring, one article (the one referenced above by Brews), where Erik Shilling writes his feelings about sitting in a restored P-40, he states " When I arrived, there in front of the hangar sat a beautiful P-40C perfect in every detail." The aircraft in the photos there is most definetly  a close cousin of RAF earth. Should be gospel right?

Well, in the forum reference above (in my post), someone identified as Erik Shilling says "

it is illogical for you who have never seen the P-40B, which the Flying Tigers flew, argue with those of us who have either flown or worked on them, because your only source of information in making your decision is wrong. It is obvious that your decision had to have been made by comparing a bunch of faded 60 year old color photgraphs. Since these pictures can be your only source of information, you therefore haven't the vagues idea as to the true camouglage coloring of the Flying Tiger's airplanes.

I challenge those of you who think you are in a better position to dispute the claims Tex,Chuck and I have made concerning the true colors of the AVG's P-40,, and give us your source of information which you based you decision upon when you say we are wrong."

And the color scheme he was referring to was a green on green.

LOL.

OK. Found this.



Anyone have any others- larger maybe?

LOL. Notice the teeth of the foreground aircraft and the next one in line.....

This aircraft is flown by Charles H. Older, 3rd Pursuit Sqn., AVG, according to the source.

The "teeth" on our Shark Gunships in Nam didn't have the same style, number or shape.  The Crew Chiefs painted the teeth on and eveyone was different.  I imagine the same for the P-40's.  No set pattern and more than one painter!  Just a general shape.  Oh, we asked and received permission from the Flying Tigers to use the famous shark teeth on our UH-1C's.  The only Army Unit to do so and have their blessings other than the direct AF "decendant" Units. 

The colors used on the AVG birds has always been controversial.  Personally, I go with the research conducted by Dana Bell, who did a study of the Curtiss records.  He concluded that the paint colors used by Curtiss were U.S. Medium Green ANA612 & Dupont Brown ANA 617 for the upper disruptive camo & Aircraft Grey ANA512, FS16473 for the lower surfaces.

Regards,  Rick

rjkplasticmod wrote:

The colors used on the AVG birds has always been controversial.  Personally, I go with the research conducted by Dana Bell, who did a study of the Curtiss records.  He concluded that the paint colors used by Curtiss were U.S. Medium Green ANA612 & Dupont Brown ANA 617 for the upper disruptive camo & Aircraft Grey ANA512, FS16473 for the lower surfaces. Regards,  Rick

Cool- thanks. That's as good as any info I've read. If that's what Curtiss had on record, I guess that's as close to truth as you can get.

Thanks for posting that.

rjkplasticmod wrote:

The colors used on the AVG birds has always been controversial.  Personally, I go with the research conducted by Dana Bell, who did a study of the Curtiss records.  He concluded that the paint colors used by Curtiss were U.S. Medium Green ANA612 & Dupont Brown ANA 617 for the upper disruptive camo & Aircraft Grey ANA512, FS16473 for the lower surfaces. Regards,  Rick

  Thanks Rick.... ........... 

Hiya Jon,

Two books that have a number of color photographs of AVG P-40s, along with loads of diagrams and other information, are "American Volunteer Group Colours and Markings" by Terrill Clements and "Tigers Over China: The Aircraft of the AVG" by Thomas Tullis.  I highly recommend both for anyone having an interest in the AVG, especially their aircraft.

Mark

 

Based on all my resources, and I have several, they were painted in RAF scheme using the closest US equivalents.  The really bizarre thing is the British roundels were over painted with the brown/earth color which really looks odd, but is correct.  Then the Nationalist Chinese markings were then added.

This thread contains some great links to research on this sticky question.

Here's one more: http://www.warbirdforum.com/avg.htm

Dan Ford has written what is probably the definitive work on the AVG. A lot of his research is provided on the web site above. Poke around a bit and you'll find references to colors and markings -- often right from an AVG pilot.

Regards,

Lufbery wrote:

Dan Ford has written what is probably the definitive work on the AVG. A lot of his research is provided on the web site above. Poke around a bit and you'll find references to colors and markings -- often right from an AVG pilot. Regards,

Just be aware, Dan Ford is not highly thought of by the members of the AVG (to put it mildly).  Too many reasons to discuss here, but anyone interested should search the forum of the official AVG website:

www.flyingtigersavg.com

I'm not taking sides on the AVG vs. Dan Ford debate, just putting out the info.

Mark 

I would recommend the Ford, Tullis, and Clements books. which does give you a good record of the camo used. The british roundels were actually not overpainted, the earth color circular blank area on the wings were there as a guide to apply the roundels, which were decals. The planes camo were painted with masks, and as stated previously, US colors 'best-matched' to British colors as these were orginally slated for the UK before being diverted to the AVG. The p-40E had green/olive over gray. Chinese markings were applied over the wings. The flying Tiger emblem were decals from Disney. The other unit markings & sharks teeth were all hand painted and thus all different. As for the Ford vs AVG, I don't think the AVG displeasure is with Ford's research regarding plane colors, but rather his claim that the offical AVG record is inflated as compared to the Japanese records of their losses and visa-versa - as the fog of war creates these uncertainties. I wont take either side on this particular debate, but merely acknowledge the heroic deeds of the AVG - as Dan Ford does also in his book.

Mark Joyce wrote:

Just be aware, Dan Ford is not highly thought of by the members of the AVG (to put it mildly).  Too many reasons to discuss here, but anyone interested should search the forum of the official AVG website: www.flyingtigersavg.com I'm not taking sides on the AVG vs. Dan Ford debate, just putting out the info. Mark

Mark,

That has always confused me because Ford's book is very respectful toward the AVG. But, victory claims and people's memories of war can be very emotional subjects.  What Ford did was work dilligently to cross-check facts and assertions made by AVG members and others. One extremely cool practice of Ford's was to check Japanese combat records to get the Japanese view of battles with the AVG. The result is that victory claims from both sides get often disappointing reality checks.

Bruce Gamble did the same thing in his two wonderful books on the Black Sheep Squadron and Pappy Boyington. I met and spoke with Gamble twice

The thing is, you can't have a double standard and be intellectually honest at the same time. One can't accept without question American kill numbers, and then denigrate the Japanese ones -- which must happen because they too claimed more losses than the AVG actually experienced.

Anyway, I don't think that Ford's book in any way diminishes the singular contribution of the Flying Tigers to the war. In fact, it really enhances the story by adding a layer of credibility often missing from more romantic and fawning books.

Regards,

Hi Drew,

As I said, I'm not taking sides on the debate and you have some very valid points.  I apologize for bringing this up, since Jon's original question was simply about the colors of the AVG planes and I got sidetracked.   Overclaiming of victories was an all too common practice by all air forces, simply due to the 'fog of war' as opposed to a pilot's ulterior motive.  Was the AVG an exception and did its pilots actually destroy every plane they claimed?  I don't know; all I know is that I wasn't there so am in no position to judge.  I too have read Dan Ford's book and found it quite interesting.  It's just that I've been following the AVG for a number of years, and my impression is that the debate goes beyond the claims although I could be mistaken.  It wouldn't be the first time!

As a sad aside, AVG and 23rd FG ace Charles Older passed away this past weekend.  Mr. Older was also the presiding judge on the famous Charles Manson murder trial.

Regards,

Mark

Mark, thanks for the info regarding Mr. Older, he will be missed.

Hi Mark,

Mark Joyce wrote:

It's just that I've been following the AVG for a number of years, and my impression is that the debate goes beyond the claims although I could be mistaken.  It wouldn't be the first time!

I'm not sure if the victory claim numbers are the only sticking point or not. All of the historical evidence indicates that every air force from the dawn of aerial warfare has claimed kills that didn't happen. As you say, this is most often the result of  confusion during combat, and should be seen as no reflection on the honor of the pilots themselves.

In any event, when I had a chance to meet several of the AVG pilots a few years ago at an airshow, they all expressed a fair amount of skeptism about most of the books that had been written about them!

I'll have to dig out my program from that show so I can remember just who I met. It was close to 10 years ago and my memory for names just isn't that good.

As a sad aside, AVG and 23rd FG ace Charles Older passed away this past weekend.

That is sad.

Back on topic, when I met the AVG pilots, one of them told me in no uncertain terms that their planes did not have red spinners. Since then, I've seen some good color photos that confirm this (like that needed to be confirmed).

Regards,

I'm reading a good book called "Sharks over China", and even though it's not about the AVG, but the 23rd FG that took over those reins, it does confirm the difficulty of counting kills, probables, etc.

On several occassions, eyewitness accounts talk about assuming something was a probable, then later confirming when the wreckage was spotted, someone else saw it, etc. Or talking about seeing pieces fly off an aircraft, but no smoke, so it was a "damaged".

They also point out that both US and Japanese claims versus records of losses were often not in agreement.

I can imagine that when you're twisting and turning in the sky, the last thing you're worried about is your kill count. (I haven't flown in combat, but I've been in combat- and I was not really concerned with notching my rifle.... just getting home safe to clean it. )

Whatever the claims versus the actual strewn wreckage on the ground- those AVG and 23rd pilots did a remarkable thing with very little support, supplies, and generally getting hand-me-down aircraft. Their story is so amazing to read.

If you're interested in the "Sharks over China" book, Amazon has it for $1.98. (I'm sure it's at other places too.) It's a bit dry at times- lots of dates, facts, figures- but it also has some very good first hand accounts, and a few really good pictures. It's not real useful as a modeling reference, but if you're a fan of history- it's a doggone bargain.

Jon, I've read 'Sharks Over China' and found it a very interesting and informative read as well.  I also highly recommend it.  Unfortunately for me, I had to pay a bit more than $1.98 for my copy (but it is worth what I paid)!  Its author, Carl Molesworth, has written three P-40 books in the 'Aircraft of the Aces' series published by Osprey, and anyone with an interest in the P-40 should consider adding these books to his or her book collection.  Each book is full of photographs and has beautifully done colour plates by Jim Laurier.  Now these books are definitely useful as a modeling reference! 

Mark  

Mark Joyce wrote:

Jon, I've read 'Sharks Over China' and found it a very interesting and informative read as well.  I also highly recommend it.  Unfortunately for me, I had to pay a bit more than $1.98 for my copy (but it is worth what I paid)!  Its author, Carl Molesworth, has written three P-40 books in the 'Aircraft of the Aces' series published by Osprey, and anyone with an interest in the P-40 should consider adding these books to his or her book collection.  Each book is full of photographs and has beautifully done colour plates by Jim Laurier.  Now these books are definitely useful as a modeling reference!  Mark

Cool- thanks! I'll have to check those out.

hey jwb,

ive done chuck older's tiger 2 years ago, i never figured theres a debate on the real color. i just followed the color guidelines of the academy 1/48 kit. heres a couple of pics.

 

A number of years ago there was a simular debate about the P-51 Mustangs that appeared to be natural metal with dark blue upper fuselages and dark blue upper wings and tail. Hasagawa even released a 1/32 scale and 1/72nd scale kits of these aircraft with the "box art" as aforementioned, that is dark blue over natural metal. These aircraft were in fact OD over natural metal. There is something about the old color film that caused it to lose certain colors over time. The yellow faded out of the film and left the impression that the OD, which is a shade of green, was in fact blue (green less the yellow = blue).  I am not into photography so I do not know the technical reasons for this common problem with a lot of the color film from that era. I do know that there is often color distorsion with color photos of that vintage. I do have a color photograph of three AVG P-40Bs, # 68, #46, and #24 and the aircraft appear to be dark green and earth as indicated in the Curtiss Co. documents for painting of the aircraft for delivery. Given the primitive conditions that the aircraft operated in, and would have been maintained in, it would be more likely than not that the aircraft were painted with whatever was available, and mixed on site, when painting was necessary.  If you add color fade and weathering into the mix you get a variety of hues to add to the "mix". Who is to say what is right for a specific aircraft on any given date. Just build it Jon, and they will come (to see it).

sidewinder77 wrote:

hey jwb, ive done chuck older's tiger 2 years ago, i never figured theres a debate on the real color. i just followed the color guidelines of the academy 1/48 kit. heres a couple of pics.

Great looking build sidewinder77! I like that a lot! The panel lines look great, the weathering and chippping are EXCELLENT.

What colors did you use?

Do you have any more pics? I'd like to see them.

Also- the kit I'm just starting, a Revell P-40B, does not have the butts of the cowl guns exposed in the cockpit. I've found some P-40B pics that look like I'll need to scratch build that detail. Does this kit model those? If so, do you have some office shots so I can eyeball the scale?

Hi guys,

I'm currently building the Trumpeter 1/48 P-40B that I would like to finish in the AVG scheme, more specifically using an old SuperScale Decal sheet (48-12) with markings of the 2nd PS, aircraft no. 38 flown by H. M. Geselbracht. The color scheme demarcation lines as indicated in the SuperScale sheet doesn't seem to be very accurate, so I'll paint it in the scheme recommended on Cutting Edge AVG decal sheets. Can anyone confirm to me I'm doing the right thing ?

Thanks a lot

Nelson

according to Dana Bell's research for his book "Aviation Color Primers No. 1 US Export Colors of WWII" the colors are : Dupont 71-009 or 71-065 "Dark Earth" Dupont 71-013 Dark Green and an unspecified light grey that is called "Sky Type S Grey". this is a very mis-leading name as there are actually two colors there, a pale grey and a pale green. this same name was also used for the P-39 and was specified as Dupont 71-021.

I will leave it up to you to decide if Dupont 71-021 light grey is the color you want to use on your model.