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British Army Group Build 2020

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  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: Goteborg / Sverige
Posted by Svenne Duva on Thursday, October 8, 2020 8:40 AM
Hi Jack,
Hi Harold,
I am struggling here that is for sure.

Your link helped straightening out quite a few question marks Jack, thank you for that!
And I do agree Harold, that kind of schematic that Vallejo have provided there is quite useful.

But then there are all the interpretations and all the different makes.
Italeri (and I for one can not argue their research) have the Chevy presented in 3 different stencil options:

2 times FS 34084 and the one I would like to do - 3rd British Infantry Division – Normandy 1944 in what I think is referred to as the “Mickey Mouse” camouflage.

According to the instruction this would be FS 34084 Olive Drab and FS 36118 Gunship Grey which Italeri translate in their x-ref table as XF-62 and XF-50.

That would be very different from S.C.C.2 and Grey Blue. And also from the truck depicted in brown and green.
Mr. Starmer translated S.C.C.2 to Tamiya: 5 x XF68 + 4 x XF3 + 1 x XF1
. That would be brown(ish – don’t know where the yellow would brake away the final mix).

Couldn’t find Grey Blue but the text refers to S.C.C.2 and S.C.C.14 (black) if I understand correctly.

Initially I wanted to do the Chevy in S.C.C.15 OD and S.C.C.14 black.
Tamiya: 5 x XF81 + 1 x XF58 + 1 x XF71
and XF-69 Nato Black.

I guess I will have to bite the bullet and just do.
Here is my home brew of the S.C.C.15 using Tamiya as above and Tamiya XF-62. Look how dark the XF-62 is, Nato black would hardly be any contrast.



With the forehead in deep wrinkles...
Svenne

P.S.
Need to share a bit of a setback on the Triumph, the aluminum on the engine block just does not stick to the plastic – that’s me being lazy and omitting the primer…

 

sic transit gloria mundi

  • Member since
    April 2006
  • From: ON, Canada
Posted by jgeratic on Thursday, October 8, 2020 11:00 AM

Hello Svenne, my understanding of Mike's research:

Dark Tarmac was not a standard paint, more a provision to address the shortage of chromium oxide used in camouflage greens, and replaced these paints for camouflage schemes.  SCC.14 become the official 'black' camou paint in 1941.

The Micky mouse pattern continued to be applied up til August 1944 - but it seems for the most part, it was an option and not mandatory, with many vehicles just sporting the main colour.

 

 

regards,

Jack

 

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Thursday, October 8, 2020 12:19 PM

Bish

Harold, look forward to seeing that Bofors. I had a great uncle (my dads uncle) who serve on that gun in WW2.

 

Bish, Jack and Svenne. A member who goes by the call sign 'Jon_a_its' has posted additional information on the Armor Forum regarding my request for help on British colors. Jon also recommend Mike Starmer who he met at a modeling show. According to Jon, Mike Starmer is willing to assist with modeling questions regarding Second World War British colors and camouflage schemes.

Jon also suggested MIG acrylics, who have a whole range of SCC colours. I personally have never used MIG paint, so I can't comment on Jon's suggestion.


After considering Mike Starmers research on this issue I have decided to work backwards, and by that I mean decide what Artillery unit the Bofors gun was used in and paint the Matador accordingly. For this step in the process I would like to use Bish's Uncles' Regiment who was stationed on an island in Northern Scotland during the war.

Bish, could you find out what unit your Uncle served in so I can research what decals and colors I will need?

In Jon's posting he mentioned the Bofors 40mm anti-aircraft guns where most often towed by Bedford QLM and Morris with the Matador reserved for heavier 4.5-inch and 5.5-inch howitzers. I agree with Jon, that is what my reading indicated too. However, I have also read that Matadors were used in Scotland and all over the UK to tow and haul all types of artillery pieces, men, equipment and supplies.

I have already purchased the AFV Club British Bofors 40mm Anti-Aircraft gun and I did not find a 4.5-inch or 5.5-inch howitzer in plastic rather than resin that I liked, so I decided on the AFV Club Bofors gun instead. In case you're wondering what I have against resin, I have no issue with resin, but I have recently built models with full resin interiors and frankly I am not impressed with the quality of many resin modeling kits.

Harold

 

  • Member since
    April 2006
  • From: ON, Canada
Posted by jgeratic on Thursday, October 8, 2020 12:56 PM

Unless MiG recently changed their formulas, Mike Starmer did not give them a glowing review back in 2014:

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/mig-british-ww-2-colours-t101165-s10.html

 

regards,

Jack

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Thursday, October 8, 2020 1:03 PM

Sorry mate, no chance of that. He is long dead as is my dad.

“Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?”

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Thursday, October 8, 2020 1:36 PM

Bish

Sorry mate, no chance of that. He is long dead as is my dad.

 

Thank you Jack for Mike Starmer's review of MIG British SCC paint colors. I have no experience with MIG paint and I use only Vallejo and Tamiya acrylic with a few cans of Humbrol enamel, so Mike's recommendations should be easy for me to follow.

Bish, in this case if you don't mind I will pick a unit that would have been located in the Orkney Islands during the war.

Based on the fact that 40mm anti-aircraft guns were used in light LAA units I think the Regiment location will be in Lyness near Mill Bay on Hoy in the Orkney Islands.

https://hoyorkney.com/portfolio/armed-forces-units-deployed-to-hoy-during-wwii/ 

 

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Thursday, October 8, 2020 5:36 PM

Svenne Duva
Hi Jack,
Hi Harold,
I am struggling here that is for sure.

Your link helped straightening out quite a few question marks Jack, thank you for that!
And I do agree Harold, that kind of schematic that Vallejo have provided there is quite useful.

But then there are all the interpretations and all the different makes.
Italeri (and I for one can not argue their research) have the Chevy presented in 3 different stencil options:

2 times FS 34084 and the one I would like to do - 3rd British Infantry Division – Normandy 1944 in what I think is referred to as the “Mickey Mouse” camouflage.

According to the instruction this would be FS 34084 Olive Drab and FS 36118 Gunship Grey which Italeri translate in their x-ref table as XF-62 and XF-50.

That would be very different from S.C.C.2 and Grey Blue. And also from the truck depicted in brown and green.
Mr. Starmer translated S.C.C.2 to Tamiya: 5 x XF68 + 4 x XF3 + 1 x XF1
. That would be brown(ish – don’t know where the yellow would brake away the final mix).

Couldn’t find Grey Blue but the text refers to S.C.C.2 and S.C.C.14 (black) if I understand correctly.

Initially I wanted to do the Chevy in S.C.C.15 OD and S.C.C.14 black.
Tamiya: 5 x XF81 + 1 x XF58 + 1 x XF71
and XF-69 Nato Black.

I guess I will have to bite the bullet and just do.
Here is my home brew of the S.C.C.15 using Tamiya as above and Tamiya XF-62. Look how dark the XF-62 is, Nato black would hardly be any contrast.



With the forehead in deep wrinkles...
Svenne

P.S.
Need to share a bit of a setback on the Triumph, the aluminum on the engine block just does not stick to the plastic – that’s me being lazy and omitting the primer…

 

Svenne, you have the right solution regarding the paint on your Triumph engine. Primer provides the bonding agent between the substrate and the finish paint.

With respect to your question regarding British SCC's and Mike's recommendation of Tamiya paint. Here is Mike Starmers' email address mikestarmer18@gmail.com  you might send him a concise message and see if he can clarify his recommendation.

Harold

  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: Goteborg / Sverige
Posted by Svenne Duva on Friday, October 9, 2020 4:06 AM

jgeratic

Hello Svenne, my understanding of Mike's research:

Dark Tarmac was not a standard paint, more a provision to address the shortage of chromium oxide used in camouflage greens, and replaced these paints for camouflage schemes.  SCC.14 become the official 'black' camou paint in 1941.

The Micky mouse pattern continued to be applied up til August 1944 - but it seems for the most part, it was an option and not mandatory, with many vehicles just sporting the main colour.

 

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

Jack,

Thank you - the Italeri instruction leaflet states these Gun Trucks were built in Canada.
Hence my reluctant comment about the Italeri FS references.

Here is a picture I found when scroling through the web:

And here is one for Harold:


Pictures for reference purpose only.

With regards
Svenne

sic transit gloria mundi

  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: Goteborg / Sverige
Posted by Svenne Duva on Friday, October 9, 2020 5:02 AM

Hi Harold,
Now you are in historically very interesting areas, Scapa Flow!
It is difficult today to fully understand the importance of this area but it has played a significant role in both WWI and WWII.
Not going to highjack the thread but Google Scapa Flow and you will be amazed.

On the Island South Rolandsay there are some gun shelters that are visible from the ferry. AA guns at Hoy downed a Ju88 in the first air raid against the base in 1939.

Here is an overview of the area were you have Hoy (Há-øy = High Island) and the actual Marin Base Scapa Flow @ Lyness to the west, Mainland in the north (with Kirkwall [Churchwall] and the Highland Park Whiskey distillery) and South Rolandsoy on the easy side.

Sorry Bish - will let go now, Harold - I will PM you some pictures of civil nature if you are interested.

With regards
Svenne

sic transit gloria mundi

  • Member since
    April 2006
  • From: ON, Canada
Posted by jgeratic on Friday, October 9, 2020 10:17 AM

Concerning Canadian manufactured war materials, Mike Starmer has commented on this - they followed British protocal concerning paint colours even before the war started.   Canada also produced paint to be shipped to the British Empire for their requirements.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/viewtopic.php?p=1552928#p1552928

 

Also refer back to Starmer's research found at the MAFV site, as it details any possible colour differences for canvas sections on vehicles.

 

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

 

 

  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: Goteborg / Sverige
Posted by Svenne Duva on Friday, October 9, 2020 12:43 PM

Hi Jack,
Thought so and thank you for this confirmation!

Paint is on but cam is down...

With regards
Svenne

sic transit gloria mundi

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Saturday, October 10, 2020 6:59 PM

jgeratic

Concerning Canadian manufactured war materials, Mike Starmer has commented on this - they followed British protocal concerning paint colours even before the war started.   Canada also produced paint to be shipped to the British Empire for their requirements.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/viewtopic.php?p=1552928#p1552928

 

Also refer back to Starmer's research found at the MAFV site, as it details any possible colour differences for canvas sections on vehicles.

 

 

regards,

Jack

 

Jack, you seem to have a working knowledge of the Canadian and British Army and Svenne is knowledgeable about the Orkney Islands. In talking with Bish, he and I are finding it difficult to determine what the order of battle was on the Orkney Islands. We know they had the Territorial Army manning much of the anti-aircraft defense installations, but beyond that it is confusing. Can either of you shed light on this subject? Is there resource material available on the British Army order of battle during the Second World War? The second question is regarding markings for British Army vehicles during the war. Is there resources for understanding what all the marking mean?

Jack, I have family in Nova Scotia and my Uncle Harold was a Flying Officer in the Royal Canadian Air Force. In 1943 he volunteered for RAF Bomber Command stationed in Scampton, England and was killed during a mission over Ulm, Germany in December 1944. He was the pilot of Avro Lancaster Bomber BP633 P4-J.

https://www.backtonormandy.org/the-history/air-force-operations/airplanes-allies-and-axis-lost/lancaster/21346-PB6331944-12-18.html

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Saturday, October 10, 2020 7:09 PM

Svenne, please don't be concerned about hijacking the thread. As long as people are shareing info and having fun, thats all that matters. and this is really interesting stuff. Keep it coming.

“Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?”

  • Member since
    April 2006
  • From: ON, Canada
Posted by jgeratic on Saturday, October 10, 2020 11:07 PM

Hi Harold, that is right on you had a relative that served during WW2.  Are you also from Canada?

Lots of questions you have, so will post some links I have bookmarked.  First though, I did come across this if you haven't already seen it:

https://hoyorkney.com/portfolio/armed-forces-units-deployed-to-hoy-during-wwii/

 

For vehicle markings, there is this site currently being put together based on past publications and whatnot.  On the top left corner of that page is located three white bars - click it for a pull down menu:

https://tank-markings.blogspot.com/

 

The best I have for artillery vehicle markings is Canadian, which is mainly based on the British.  That said,  I don't know how much similar or different they would be, but have a look:

https://www.canadiansoldiers.com/vehicles/markings/artillerytacticalsigns.htm

 

Another Artillery site, on the main page to the left are red lettered links that may be of some use, such as ESTABLISHMENTS and UNIT ORGANISATIONS

http://nigelef.tripod.com/RAorg.htm

 

regards,

Jack

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Sunday, October 11, 2020 11:51 AM

jgeratic

Hi Harold, that is right on you had a relative that served during WW2.  Are you also from Canada?

regards,

Jack

 

Good morning Jack. No I was born in Washington State six months after the end of the Second World War.

Harold

 

  • Member since
    February 2011
  • From: AZ,USA
Posted by GreySnake on Sunday, October 11, 2020 7:53 PM
I’m moving at the pace of a tortoise trying to complete this Sherman.
 
I’ve been working on weathering for an hour or so for the past week if I’m lucky. In the end I’ve decided just to focus on making the tank look dusty since Sherman MK. II’s made their combat debut at El Alamein so they wouldn’t be showing a lot of wear. The dust effects are done with Ammo North Africa Dust.
 
Since taking the above pictures I have put on a few more light layers to build up some more dust effects. Looking at reference photos I could go much heavier on the dust effects if so desired.
 
 
My entire week is free so I’m not going to have any excuse not to get this model done.

 
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Monday, October 12, 2020 1:52 AM

Harold, what happened to the rest of your post. yesterday you had a photo of your jacekt and explained what the badges were. Now its gone.

“Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?”

  • Member since
    April 2006
  • From: ON, Canada
Posted by jgeratic on Monday, October 12, 2020 9:54 AM

Greysnake, I like what you are doing with the El Alamein Sherman.  Will you be keeping the main gun barrel a solid black?

 

Harold, thanks for posting the vest with all those crests.  The Canadian one with the royal crown stood out right away for me, but yes the flickr link was much better quality.

 

regards,

Jack

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Monday, October 12, 2020 11:31 AM

Svenne: That's interesting and no I don't think you're hijacking the thread either- and as long as Bish is okay with it who would I be to complain? Stick out tongue

Harold: Hmmm, interesting. Heck of a history there. 

Greysnake: Ohhhhhhh, I like it! Nice work!!! 

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Monday, October 12, 2020 12:22 PM

Bish

Harold, what happened to the rest of your post. yesterday you had a photo of your jacekt and explained what the badges were. Now its gone.

 

Sometimes I get off-track on my posts Mate. I start talking about things that have little, or nothing to do with the subject.

The vest you asked about was a Christmas present from my wife two years ago.https://flic.kr/p/2i9ofRj

Harold

  • Member since
    February 2011
  • From: AZ,USA
Posted by GreySnake on Tuesday, October 13, 2020 11:04 AM
Jack, thank you for alerting me on the gun barrel! I somehow never noticed it till you brought it up.
 
 
Gamera, thanks you!
 
 
The Sherman is very close to being finished and right now I’m just working on any area’s the need attention.
 
 
Thanks to Jack I fixed the gun barrel has been fixed. Looking at photos of the 9th Queens Royal Lancers Sherman’s in North Africa at least one had the bottom part of the barrel left in Desert Pink and the majority of it painted in the blue/black. Only took a few minutes of masking and airbrushing to fix the problem.
 
 
Here’s where I left the Sherman last night. 
 
 
 
This model should be done tomorrow. 

 
  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Tuesday, October 13, 2020 11:50 AM

Greysnake: That looks good, looking forward to the finished photos!

Harold: Ohhhh, that's cool! A heck of a lot of history in that vest!!! 

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    February 2011
  • From: AZ,USA
Posted by GreySnake on Wednesday, October 14, 2020 7:48 AM
Thanks Gamera!
 
 
My spouse woke up yesterday morning with a stomach virus and I attended to her yesterday in addition to work that needed done. When I finally had some free time to work on the Sherman late in the evening I was ready to go to sleep. Maybe I’ll get to it today.

 
  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Wednesday, October 14, 2020 12:52 PM

Greysnake: Hope she feels better soon. 

 

I did get more work done on the Conqueror. Odds and ends still to add. I just shot her with some dark green primer I had lying around to spot any flaws. Aiming to be done sometime around spring of next year. 

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Wednesday, October 14, 2020 1:47 PM

Thats looking really nice Gamera. Been eyeing up one of those kts, thinking of the AM Mk II.

I have just noticed its not on the roster, can you remind me which kit that is.

“Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?”

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Wednesday, October 14, 2020 1:48 PM

Thats looking very nice GS. Look forward to seeing it wrapped up.

Hope the Mrs is better soon.

“Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?”

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Wednesday, October 14, 2020 2:21 PM

Bish: I'm not sure if I asked you to put her on the roster or not. I'd like to be done by the end of the year but at the rate I move it's not a given. 

In any case it's the 1/35th Amusing Conqueror Mk II. You should go for it Bish, it's a good kit. The running gear is a bit complex and I ended up making issues for myself by attaching one part upside down and using the wrong one in another case but the fit is excellent. 

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Wednesday, October 14, 2020 2:53 PM

Thanks, i'll put it on the roster anyway. You know you don't have to be done by the end of the GB.

I had not seen that Chieftain. I will be starting on the Mk 11 once i wrap up the Harriers.

“Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?”

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Thursday, October 15, 2020 8:01 AM

Lol ok, but after defaulting on four of your GBs I hate to end up not finishing yet another model for one! 

Looking forward to the Mk 11 Chieftain. Is it a Meng kit as well? Haven't done any work on my Mk II but it looks impressive in the box. 

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Thursday, October 15, 2020 9:21 AM

Ye, the meng kit. Looks so impressive the only AM i have for it is a new barrel and some exhausts. After doing the 432 last year, i am looking forward to seeing how this one comes out.

“Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?”

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