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British Army Group Build 2020

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  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Thursday, October 15, 2020 11:14 AM

Bish

Ye, the meng kit. Looks so impressive the only AM i have for it is a new barrel and some exhausts. After doing the 432 last year, i am looking forward to seeing how this one comes out.

 

Cool! I don't think you really need anything else. 

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    February 2011
  • From: AZ,USA
Posted by GreySnake on Friday, October 16, 2020 12:20 PM
Sherman Mk. II is complete. The model decided to fight me at the very end when installing the vision blocks. The coaxial machine fell off, one of the side skirts came loose and the grab handle on the machine gunners hatch fell off. I’m happy to finally be finished with this model as it was a challenge and in the end I did complete it rather then relegating it to a box.
 
 
Thank you for hosting the group build Bish. Here is the photo for the front page. 
 

 
  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Friday, October 16, 2020 12:39 PM

Greysnake: Ohhh nice work! The camo came out really well!!! 

And I know what you mean- somehow small parts love to wait till the end to start acting up. 

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    April 2006
  • From: ON, Canada
Posted by jgeratic on Friday, October 16, 2020 12:51 PM

GS, good on you for sticking through till the end.  The results are quite nice, and a very unique colour combination scheme on the Sherman.  Yes

 

regards,

Jack

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Friday, October 16, 2020 2:19 PM

It turned out very nice G.S. You worked hard and didn't give up and that is important. I sometimes get so frustrated with the way a project is going, but usually if I leave it alone for a day or two I will find a way forward.

Harold

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Friday, October 16, 2020 2:47 PM

Svenne Duva

Hi Harold,
Now you are in historically very interesting areas, Scapa Flow!
It is difficult today to fully understand the importance of this area but it has played a significant role in both WWI and WWII.
Not going to highjack the thread but Google Scapa Flow and you will be amazed.

On the Island South Rolandsay there are some gun shelters that are visible from the ferry. AA guns at Hoy downed a Ju88 in the first air raid against the base in 1939.

Here is an overview of the area were you have Hoy (Há-øy = High Island) and the actual Marin Base Scapa Flow @ Lyness to the west, Mainland in the north (with Kirkwall [Churchwall] and the Highland Park Whiskey distillery) and South Rolandsoy on the easy side.

Sorry Bish - will let go now, Harold - I will PM you some pictures of civil nature if you are interested.

With regards
Svenne

 

Thank you Svenne for the Hoy information. I have been waiting for a new air compressor to arrive before I start painting and in the meantime studying what I can find out about the Hoy and Scapa Flow area. I have also been reading about British World War II vehicle marking and paint.

Harold

  • Member since
    February 2011
  • From: AZ,USA
Posted by GreySnake on Friday, October 16, 2020 7:41 PM
Thank you, Gamera, Jack and Harold.  

 
  • Member since
    May 2020
Posted by Keyserj on Friday, October 16, 2020 8:01 PM

Love the look of that camo compared to the olive drab most shermans had. Really nice build GreySnake. Yes

"Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves?"- Oddball

 

John

On the bench: 1/35 Trumpeter m1132 ESV Stryker

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Saturday, October 17, 2020 2:24 AM

Very nice looking Sherman there GS, i do like that scheme. Thank you for taking part, front page is updated.

“Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?”

  • Member since
    February 2011
  • From: AZ,USA
Posted by GreySnake on Saturday, October 17, 2020 1:13 PM
Thank you, John and Bish.
 
I learned a lot while working techniques, skills and a lot more about the Sherman in general. I’ll be planning to build a lot more Sherman variants in the near future.

 
  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Sunday, October 18, 2020 5:45 PM

More Shermans are good!!! Less ugly Tigers and Panthers!!!

 

Stick out tongue

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    February 2005
  • From: Nashotah, WI
Posted by Glamdring on Monday, October 19, 2020 6:09 PM

Finally dug the Challenger out of the stash and removed the shrink wrap, such a good feeling!

Not sure when the build will begin, contingent on wrapping up a couple other builds, but I plan on a start before the end of month.

Robert

"Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." 

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Tuesday, October 20, 2020 12:24 AM

jgeratic

Also refer to Mike's research concerning the timeline of what paints and schemes were used for the European Theater:

https://www.mafva.org/british-vehicle-camouflage-1939-45/?v=79cba1185463

 

Jack I have decided to change the theater of operation for my AEC Matador. The decals that came with the kit include marking for the Italian Campaign (10 July 1943 to 2 May 1945).

From my understanding of Mike Starmer's research on S.C.C. (standard camouflage colours) from B.S. (British Standard) 987c, S.C.C. 2 Brown with S.C.C. 1A Dark Brown or S.C.C. 14 Black were used to create the camouflage pattern shown in M.T.P. (Military Training Pamphlet) No. 20 from 1941 to 1942. The same colour combination was later used for a foliage pattern shown in M.T.P. No. 46, Part 4A from 1942 to 1944.

If I understood the above information correctly a Matador in the British Army during the Italian Campaign could have a base colour of S.C.C. 2 Brown with a foliage pattern over it in S.C.C. 14 Black. Mike's research with Vallejo Model Air paint indicates #71.038 Medium Brown is a match for S.C.C. 2 and #71.005 Grey Blue is the correct match for what B.S. 987c is calling S.C.C. 14 Black.

Jack my new air compressor arrived today and I would like to start painting by week end, but I am uncomfortable with the paint colours and camouflage pattern I have chosen. The pattern I would like to use is shown in Terry Ashley's review of the AEC Matador on Perth Military Modeling Site. As far as I can tell the 'Italy 1943' pattern that AFV Club illistrates would correctly represent the foliage pattern shown in M.T.P. No. 46.

https://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/reviews/vehicles/afvclub/af35239.html 

Actual black and white photograph of British Army with Matador in Italy.

https://flic.kr/p/2jXhee2

The colors I have chosen are listed on the back of Vallejo's paint set that Mike Starmer assisted in selecting.

https://acrylicosvallejo.com/en/product/hobby/sets/afv-color-series/wwii-british-colors-uk-bef-europe-1939-1945-71614/

What do you think?

Harold

  • Member since
    April 2006
  • From: ON, Canada
Posted by jgeratic on Tuesday, October 20, 2020 1:34 AM

Initially for the Sicily/Italy theater (Operation Husky began July 1943), the paint scheme was set out in the Middle East section. That would make it a base of S.C.C.5 Light Mud, with either Black or S.C.C.7 utilized to create the camouflage shapes. 

As 1944 progressed, European colours and schemes became more dominate.  The roundel as an air recognition feature was also suppose to be replaced by the white star.

Now going by a post by Mike (see #8 found here: https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/viewtopic.php?p=1522759#p1522759 )

... depending on what finish a vehicle was previously to the invasion, it may or may not have had top priority to be repainted in Light Mud.

 

regards,

Jack

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Tuesday, October 20, 2020 6:10 AM

jgeratic

Initially for the Sicily/Italy theater (Operation Husky began July 1943), the paint scheme was set out in the Middle East section. That would make it a base of S.C.C.5 Light Mud, with either Black or S.C.C.7 utilized to create the camouflage shapes. 

As 1944 progressed, European colours and schemes became more dominate.  The roundel as an air recognition feature was also suppose to be replaced by the white star.

Now going by a post by Mike (see #8 found here: https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/viewtopic.php?p=1522759#p1522759 )

... depending on what finish a vehicle was previously to the invasion, it may or may not have had top priority to be repainted in Light Mud.

 

regards,

Jack

 

Thank you Jack for a fast response. Based on your information I found that Vallejo has a UK Light Mud #71.284. They don't reference S.C.C. 5, but they do say that Mike Starmer assisted in selecting it for World War II British colours UK/BEF/Europe 1939 - 1945. I ordered enough to do a couple of British models.

Regarding the roundel air recognition feature. The decal I have has the yellow circle, so I will make sure there is S.C.C. 14 Black under it when I create the camouflage pattern.

Thanks again.

Harold

 

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Tuesday, October 20, 2020 9:07 AM

Robert: Ohhhhh, that's cool! 

Harold: Looking forward to seeing however you paint her. 

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Thursday, October 22, 2020 4:42 AM

Gamera

Robert: Ohhhhh, that's cool! 

Harold: Looking forward to seeing however you paint her. 

 

Cliff, the body paint will be S.C.C. 5 Light Mud with S.C.C. 14 Black camouflage in a foliage pattern. Please see link below:

https://flic.kr/p/2jXQGqJ

I believe the illustration AFV Club used for the Italy 1943 version of the Matador has some errors. The correct body color is not Yellow FS33531 and the camouflage is not just Flat Black, but the camouflage pattern is correct. For S.C.C. 5 I will use Vallejo #71.284 UK Light Mud and S.C.C. 14 will be Vallejo #71.005 Grey Blue which looks black. I will use Vallejo #70.601 Grey Surface Primer as well.

Bish and Jack I need your help regarding vehicle markings. I am having trouble identifying the regiment or battalion used in the above AFV Club illustration.

The illustration shows the 8th Army badge as it's divisional or formational sign and it's on the drivers' right side. My understanding is this sign should be at the division level rather than the Army level and it should be on the drivers left side instead of the right?

The arm of service flash 'Number 390' on a red over blue background colour is clearly Royal Artillery or possibly AGRA (Army Group Royal Artillery). The number; however, should be a regiment or battalion number but I can not find a 390 Regiment that was in Italy.

I have found a 390 Battery, the Sussex Yeomanry at Chichester, England that was part of the 144th Field Regiment. I believe the 144th and the 98th Field Regiments from Sussex and Surrey were part of the 8th Army during the Italian Campaign and had 25-pounders that were towed with artillery tractors like the Matador. It's my understanding this arm of service number should be at the regiment or battalion level, not the battery level? What do you think?

Harold

  • Member since
    April 2006
  • From: ON, Canada
Posted by jgeratic on Thursday, October 22, 2020 10:44 AM

For the Matador markings, the white bar underneath the AoS indicates it is an Army HQ asset, so that is why it is matched up with the 8th Army sign.

The AoS serial number is not a repeat of the actual number of a specific unit - so 390 does not mean 390th Artillery.  

The quartered square in blue and red, now that is the battery marking.   The red quadrant on the upper right corner indicates 1st Battery.  The AD marking further specifies the vehicle position within the battery.

Wiki has a listing of the AGRA units operating in Italy, but my search has come up empty in trying to find the regiments and associated AoS serials.  There is this one for NWE 1944-45 to give an idea:

regards,

Jack

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Thursday, October 22, 2020 1:31 PM

jgeratic

For the Matador markings, the white bar underneath the AoS indicates it is an Army HQ asset, so that is why it is matched up with the 8th Army sign.

The AoS serial number is not a repeat of the actual number of a specific unit - so 390 does not mean 390th Artillery.  

The quartered square in blue and red, now that is the battery marking.   The red quadrant on the upper right corner indicates 1st Battery.  The AD marking further specifies the vehicle position within the battery.

Wiki has a listing of the AGRA units operating in Italy, but my search has come up empty in trying to find the regiments and associated AoS serials.  There is this one for NWE 1944-45 to give an idea:

regards,

Jack

 

Jack it would certainly simplify things if I went with the 4th AGRA, 186 AoS above as you suggested since I have the decals, paint and camouflage pattern already identified. Comparing the AFV Club illustration (B) and photograph below, the body colour shown in the illustration does appear to match the photograph the illustration was based on, please see links:

https://flic.kr/p/2jY3b6R

https://flic.kr/p/2jXXX3q

I need to confirm that Vallejo #71.316 described as No. 41 Dark Olive Drab by Vallejo is the same as S.C.C. 15 mentioned below:

1944-45 – The final change in colour came in April 1944 when A.C.I. 533 authorized S.C.C.15 Olive Drab for use as the new basic colour, to remove the need to repaint U.S. supplied vehicles.  S.C.C.15 Olive Drab was used to replace the old S.C.C.2 in M.T.P.46 patterns or on its own particularly after the abandonment of pattern painting with ACI 1100 of August 1944 except on vehicles still in S.C.C.2.  S.C.C.15 Olive Drab was the first colour in this standard range to be formally named.  It does not match U.S. Army Olive Drab No.9.

The only reference I have is Vallejo's paint set #71.614 which Mike Starmer assisted in selecting the colours. On the paint set Vallejo does not mention S.C.C. 15, but Vallejo #71.316 No. 41 Dark Olive Drab and #71.330 No. 3 Khaki Green are very close to the colour in the above photograph. What do you think?

https://flic.kr/p/2jY3H1R

Harold

  • Member since
    April 2006
  • From: ON, Canada
Posted by jgeratic on Thursday, October 22, 2020 6:51 PM

Concerning the Vallejo paint set for British AFV's, I've not come across any review by Mike Starmer.  I think this is important, because another paint brand (Real Colors AK) used his input and advertised his name alongside their British paints, but he was discouraged with what they came out with.

Short of asking Mike his opinion, you would have to obtain one of his publications and compare the paint chips found within (these are actual paint swatches as opposed to printed examples) and compare to the Vallejo paint sample to determine how faithful they are.

 

regards,

Jack

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Thursday, October 22, 2020 6:56 PM

Glamdring

Finally dug the Challenger out of the stash and removed the shrink wrap, such a good feeling!

Not sure when the build will begin, contingent on wrapping up a couple other builds, but I plan on a start before the end of month.

 

Lok forward to seeing this one come along.

“Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?”

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Thursday, October 22, 2020 7:15 PM

Harold: I have no friggin' clue what's accurate but Jack has aways pointed me in the right direction- best of luck!!!

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Friday, October 23, 2020 5:18 PM

jgeratic

Concerning the Vallejo paint set for British AFV's, I've not come across any review by Mike Starmer.  I think this is important, because another paint brand (Real Colors AK) used his input and advertised his name alongside their British paints, but he was discouraged with what they came out with.

Short of asking Mike his opinion, you would have to obtain one of his publications and compare the paint chips found within (these are actual paint swatches as opposed to printed examples) and compare to the Vallejo paint sample to determine how faithful they are.

 

regards,

Jack

 

Jack I have taken your suggestion and emailed Mike Starmer. Please see my email below:

Hello Mike, my name is J. Harold Benson from Vancouver, Washington. I am a member of the FineScale Modeling Armor Forum and British Army Group Build 2020. I have some questions about British Standard Camouflage Colours (S.C.C.). 

 

Vallejo mentions that you assisted their research is selecting colours for paint set #71.614 titled WWII British Colors UK/BEF/Europe 1939-1945. However, Vallejo’s paint set dose not reference the corresponding Standard Camouflage Colours [numbers] mentioned in your research white paper posted on the M.A.F.V.A. Website.  https://www.mafva.org/british-vehicle-camouflage-1939-45/?v=79cba1185463 

 

I would like your help identifying those S.C.C. Numbers. Some have already been identified and indicated below; however, if I have made a mistake please feel free to correct me. 

 

 71.005 Grey Blue = S.C.C. 14 

71.038 Camouflage Medium Brown = S.C.C. 2 

71.038 Hull Red = Unknown 

71.284 UK Light Mud = S.C.C. 5 

71.316 N0. 41 Dark Olive Drab = S.C.C. 11B

71.324 B.S. Dark Green = Unknown 

71.330 No. 3 Khaki Green = G3 (S.C.C. Unknown)

 

Beyond the paint set I am looking for equivalent Vallejo colours to match S.C.C. 1A Dark Brown, S.C.C. 4 Stone and S.C.C. 15 Olive Drab.

 

I would also like your permission to post whatever information you provide on our Forum website for the benefit of all our members. 

 

Thank you for your time and research on this subject. 

 

Harold Benson

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Friday, October 23, 2020 5:45 PM

Jack and Cliff, I feel the subject of matching S.C.C. Numbers to the correct Vallejo colours is worth an effort; however, it may become a case of diminishing returns. I already know what colors were used in the Northwest Europe campaign of 1944-45 based on Mike's research and weather I use olive drab or khaki green is not a major issue because they are so similar. Still I think it would be good to let Mike know his efforts are of value to modelers like us.

Harold

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Friday, October 23, 2020 5:49 PM

Thats some great info going up there guys, thanks for posting all that.

“Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?”

  • Member since
    April 2006
  • From: ON, Canada
Posted by jgeratic on Friday, October 23, 2020 6:42 PM

Harold, thanks for taking the time and sending out that email.  It will be interesting to see Starmer's response.

Vallejo is odd in the way they have labeled some of their paints.  Four of the eight in the set being discussed have, in name, nothing to do with British callouts. 

They did a similar hodgepodge when they first came out with their RAF and Luftwaffe sets.  Maybe they had existing paints which were considered good enough to match and never bothered changing to appropriate names.   The worst part was that many of the colours were quite off, making them unpopular.  They seem to have taken a closer look at paint colours with the second releases of their aircraft sets.

regards,

Jack

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Friday, October 23, 2020 11:59 PM

Bish and Jack, after days of searching the web and asking for help I believe I found what I was looking for and it was right under my nose all the time:

https://flic.kr/p/2jYsf4y

The above information is found in Vallejo's Historical Color Reference Guide:

https://acrylicosvallejo.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/historical-color-references-guide-for-aircraft-and-afv-series-vallejo-colors.pdf

Like Jack said in some cases Vallejo uses names they have assigned to other Model Air colour applications which is confusing.

Harold

 

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Saturday, October 24, 2020 1:37 AM

So Cliff, Bish and Jack I am ready to start painting this weekend. With a new air compressor and paint selection figured out I can move forward. The body colour will be S.C.C. 15 Olive Drab (Vallejo #71.016) which was authorized to replace S.C.C. 2 Brown in April 1944.

Then create the camouflage pattern shown in M.T.P. 46, Figure 7. Please see link below, with S.C.C.14 Blue Black (Vallejo #71.054) which was authorized to replace S.C.C. 1A Dark Brown in A.C.I. 1496, October 1943.

https://www.paradata.org.uk/media/993

Cliff since the undercarriage and upper portion of the Matador body will be dark I was thinking of using Vallejo #70.602 Black Surface Primer. Then paint the entire body with #71.016 Olive Drab. Mask off the area I want to remain olive drab and paint the camouflage area with S.C.C. 14 Blue Black. What do you think?

Jack, had you not introduced me to Mike Starmer's research and the correct way to understand British Army vehicle marking I don't think I would have ever jumped into this complicated area of modeling. It took reading Mike's information at least a dozen times and searching the web for more information to have my novice understanding, but I truly appreciate your help.

Harold

 

  • Member since
    April 2006
  • From: ON, Canada
Posted by jgeratic on Saturday, October 24, 2020 8:44 AM

Harold, that is handy cross reference chart for the Vallejo products.

I am a bit hesitant that 71.016 listed as an aircraft colour for both ANA 504 and 613, as well as the British shade of S.C.C. 15.   As it happens, I do have this particular Vallejo paint in my inventory, so have done a paint comparison with Starmer's Tamiya mix as well as Hataka's version of S.C.C. 15. 

While still wet, Tamiya is noted as having a tint of green, while the other two are missing this characteristic.  Will post a photo shortly once dry.

 

regards,

Jack

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Saturday, October 24, 2020 9:29 AM

jgeratic

Harold, that is handy cross reference chart for the Vallejo products.

I am a bit hesitant that 71.016 listed as an aircraft colour for both ANA 504 and 613, as well as the British shade of S.C.C. 15.   As it happens, I do have this particular Vallejo paint in my inventory, so have done a paint comparison with Starmer's Tamiya mix as well as Hataka's version of S.C.C. 15. 

While still wet, Tamiya is noted as having a tint of green, while the other two are missing this characteristic.  Will post a photo shortly once dry.

 

regards,

Jack

 

Jack below is a link to close up of 71.016 from Vallejo's Model Air color chart (left) next to a close up of FS34088 from the Federal Standards colour chart (Right). The FS34088 does have a green tint where as the 71.016 does not. I know we cannot trust colours on a computer screen, but I find it interesting that this comparison agrees with your preliminary observation. It will be very interesting to see the results of your paint test.

https://flic.kr/p/2jYEcTS

Harold

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