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British Army Group Build 2020

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  • Member since
    April 2006
  • From: ON, Canada
Posted by jgeratic on Saturday, October 24, 2020 11:13 AM

Don't know if this really helps, just noticed that the Vallejo I have is the correct number 71.016, but is labelled as US Dark Green.  I bought it back in 2013 when it was part of their RAF/FAA set (16 bottles), and it was instructed to be used for RAF day fighter scheme. 

No idea if they changed the formula when relabelled as USAF Olive Drab, but comparing to the digital chip it looks very similar.

 

regards,

Jack

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Saturday, October 24, 2020 2:46 PM

Thank you Jack for doing that paint test... It helps to complete a picture of Vallejo's effort in matching British colours. I believe the Tamiya mix is definitely different than Vallejo and Hataka.

Hold on to your hats Mates, below is a reply from Mike Starmer:

 

Hello Jim [Harold]

Thank you for contacting me about these British colours.  I don't use Vallejo paints at all nor have the company sent me any samples to check.  In fact I don't recall the company ever requesting samples or books from me.  I did assist an artwork producer to correct some drawings they sent him with their ideas of which colours were used on the subjects.  These were mostly inaccurate.  I was able to advise the artist accordingly, to Vallejo's dismay.
 
Thus the best I can do at present is to correct the terminology, which they have mangled.   Vallejo seem to have some strange ideas about British colours and usage.  The SCC range were never  officially named except the last three amendments.
 
SCC.14 is a Blue-Black, not dead black, a sort of 'off black'. It doesn't look dark grey at all.
SCC.2 is brown.  This is the basic vehicle colour from 1941 until early 1944 but continued in use after that date for repairs and certain vehicles retained in UK until 1946.
Hull red?  [I gave Mike the wrong Vallejo number] Where on earth did they dream that from.  No reds were used in UK or Europe and camouflage colours except as specific types of paint for use on buildings and other structures.
Light Mud. not strictly SCC.5 but probably based on it.   This was a locally used colour as the basic colour on vehicles in Sicily and Italy and Middle East in general from 1943 -35.  Definitely not UK or Northern European operations.
SCC.11B is pink.  A similar colour to that used as basic colour on vehicles of the 8th Army from late 1842 till early 1943.  The SCC.colour was produced in different specifications for use on structures.
Dark Olive Drab No.41 is, as you will know, the  term for the 1941 colour used by the USAAF . How did they think this was  a British colour?  The mind boggles.
B.S. Dark Green.  I think this might refer to Dark Green No.4 used as the disrupter over Khaki Green No.3 from 1939 till 1941.  It was never a B.S.C.colour unless it is supposed to be B.S.381 No.24 Deep Bronze Green as the peacetime gloss overall finish from 1934 until 1939.  Not used during WW2.
No.3 Khaki Green, otherwise G3.  The base colour for vehicles from late 1938 until 1941.  It was never a B.S.C colour nor S.C.C. colour.  
 
Unfortunately I cannot provide any guidance on which Vallejo paints might be suitable for those other important SCCs used too.  BTW SCC.4 was used by the Canadian 1st Corps as a repainted basic with black on their vehicles prior to deployment to North Africa for Operation Husky.  It was sometimes used as the middle colour on Firefly gun barrel camouflage, black on top, SCC.4 centre and white underneath.
 
Might I suggest  you buy my books on the subject?  You would then have all the disruptive diagrams as issued,  copies of the relevant orders and closely matched painted swatches of the colours too.
 
Kind Regards
Mike
  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Saturday, October 24, 2020 3:09 PM


The set includes all the references needed to paint any type of British army vehicles, used between 1939 and 1945, beginning with the forces stationed in British territory, the Expeditionary forces in France and the forces in Italy and on the European front. To determine the colors of this set we have been assisted by the expert Mike Starmer.

I am afraid Vallejo has done something they should not have. The above language was copied right off the Vallejo paint set 71.614, please see link below:

https://acrylicosvallejo.com/en/product/hobby/sets/afv-color-series/wwii-british-colors-uk-bef-europe-1939-1945-71614/

It would appear that Mike's name has been used without his knowledge. Since this could become a legal issue I will send Mike a picture of Vallejo's product, but I would suggest that we, members of this FineScale Modeling Forum and British Army Group Build 2020 not get involved by posting comments regarding what it appears Vallejo may have done. 

Harold

  • Member since
    April 2006
  • From: ON, Canada
Posted by jgeratic on Saturday, October 24, 2020 10:59 PM

What a mess ... so Harold, how do you plan to proceed forward wirth SCC 15, are you comfortable with doing some mixing?

I've been doing some digital anylisis, and I figure if you have some Nato Green, and add between 30 to 50% to Vallejo's 70.016, it should bring you to something acceptable, or at least that is what my software is indicating.

regards,

Jack

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Sunday, October 25, 2020 12:17 AM

jgeratic

What a mess ... so Harold, how do you plan to proceed forward wirth SCC 15, are you comfortable with doing some mixing?

I've been doing some digital anylisis, and I figure if you have some Nato Green, and add between 30 to 50% to Vallejo's 70.016, it should bring you to something acceptable, or at least that is what my software is indicating.

regards,

Jack

 

Good evening Jack, my wife and I have been at the Pacific coast the last two weeks and just arrived home. It's only a two to three hour drive so it's not a major road trip. Since I was at the coast where the WiFi is not very good for uploading pictures I did everything by Internet links. At home I can upload good quality photographs.

While driving home I told my wife what happened with Vallejo and Mike Starmer. She confirmed what I initially felt and that is I cannot trust Vallejo colours. Everything I do with their products needs to be tested. I have asked Mike to help me find a reasonable priced supplier of his book that has the British colour chips you mentioned.

I looked for his book online and Amazon has a used copy for $72.00 USD. 'British Army Colours and Disruptive Camouflage in the United Kingdom, France and N.W. Europe 1939-1945, Paperback - January 1, 2005'. That is a lot of money for a used paperback book that has about 20 pages.

In the mean time the way forward I believe is to follow Mike's mixture of Tamiya colors. I have a fair size collection of Tamiya paint on hand, but if I don't have the exact ones Mike recommends I can get them within a few days. The first step on the Matador will be surface primer and that usually takes two coats. I generally give the last primer coat 24 hours to dry and by then I will hopefully have located the Tamiya paint I need.

When I get a Tamiya mix that matches Mike's instructions I would like to upload a picture for you to look at if that's alright with you? I would feel better having a second set of experienced eyes on my samples before I paint the model. I noticed how you put your test samples on a neutral grey background. I recall reading that is the preferred method by experts, so my question is do you paint colour chips in neutral grey, or was it done digitally?

Harold

 

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Sunday, October 25, 2020 12:20 AM

Jack, I misunderstood your previous post. Yes I think I might have Nato Green and yes I'm certainly interested in mixing Vallejo and also Tamiya to get the right results.

Harold

  • Member since
    April 2006
  • From: ON, Canada
Posted by jgeratic on Sunday, October 25, 2020 1:14 AM

For Starmer's books, you should contact him directly, just in case some info has been updated.   Price per book for people in NA is £16.00, and if I understand correctly, that already includes shipping:

http://www.matadormodels.co.uk/tank_museum/xcamo_starmer.htm

I'm pretty sure two of the members in this GB have utilized the Starmer mix for Tamiya paints, will have to scroll back a few pages to find those.

Actually, the trio paint sample I had posted was done on white plastic.  It just looks grey because the light meter setting was such that it would not be overexposed.   It was taken under natural sunlight, but it was a dreary looking day.

 

regards,

Jack

  • Member since
    April 2006
  • From: ON, Canada
Posted by jgeratic on Sunday, October 25, 2020 10:42 AM

Just ordered two books from Mike Starmer,  prices are adjusted as postage has gone up greatly in the UK.  So it came out to a total of £41.30.  

Might get the other two books next year.  There is some speculation that the value of the British Pound could drop with the effects of Brexit going full bore Jan 1st.

 

regards,

Jack

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Sunday, October 25, 2020 11:10 AM

If the £ drops any more we will have to fly to Oz to find it.

“Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?”

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Sunday, October 25, 2020 11:58 AM

[quote user="jgeratic"]

Don't know if this really helps, just noticed that the Vallejo I have is the correct number 71.016, but is labelled as US Dark Green.  I bought it back in 2013 when it was part of their RAF/FAA set (16 bottles), and it was instructed to be used for RAF day fighter scheme. 

No idea if they changed the formula when relabelled as USAF Olive Drab, but comparing to the digital chip it looks very similar.

 

regards,

Jack

 

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Sunday, October 25, 2020 12:17 PM

Jack I now know that I have 47 bottles of Tamiya acrylic paint and 88 bottles of Vallejo. Would you believe none of the colors I need for S.C.C. 14 and 15 were among them. I am not a very attentive store keeper, so I had no idea how many or what colour paint I had on hand.

Harold

  • Member since
    April 2006
  • From: ON, Canada
Posted by jgeratic on Sunday, October 25, 2020 12:55 PM

Harold, no problem about the helping out - it benefits me too, as now I at least have a possible use for that particular Vallejo paint.  My jar of Tamiya mix SCC 15 is seven years old, so good to know it is still useable, and I will need it for My Humber Scout once I get back to it.

Bish, I take it by OZ you mean Australia and not that place with the yellow brick road.  Hopefully things work out for our friends across the pond.

 

regards,

Jack

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Tuesday, October 27, 2020 2:01 PM

I received the new air compressor I ordered. At first, I was disappointed because the Iwata miniature spray gun I have is too big for the air compressor. The spray gun has a 1.0mm needle and nozzle set. Then I tried the new air compressor with my Iwata airbrush that has a 0.35mm needle and nozzle, it works perfectly. In fact, it works so good at 17 PSI I was able to paint the Matador truck bed, cab interior, canopy and undercarriage with no runs and no over-spray using Vallejo surface primer. The finish is smooth, and I did not use any thinner or flow improver.

In the past my big industrial air compressor made it hard to regulate the air pressure in the 15 to 20 PSI range because it was designed to operate at 100 to 125 PSI. Even after I added a second regulator and moisture filter it would deliver to much air or not enough and the compressor was very laud. The result was either occasional runs in the paint, excessive paint buildup around tight places, or rough finish from dry paint (over-spray) when I use my airbrush. The miniature spray gun has its place with large aircraft wings and ship hulls, but I seem to do fine on 1/35 scale AFV bodies with a 0.35mm airbrush at 17 PSI.

Below is the work I did yesterday and today with the first coat of USA Olive Drab Vallejo Surface Primer #74.608. The finish coat will be British S.C.C. 15 Olive Drab (which is not US Olive Drab). It will be a Tamiya mix of XF-81, XF-58, and XF-71 that Mike Starmer researched. The camouflage paint will be S.C.C. 14 Blue Black, Tamiya XF-69. Originally, I had planned to use Vallejo paint, but after other considerations have decided to go with a proven Tamiya mixture. The camouflage pattern will be like figure 7 from the British Military Training Pamphlet #46, shown below.

I feel the need to explain that colours mentioned in M.T.P. #46 were superseded by S.C.C. 15 Olive Drab and S.C.C. 14 Blue Black in 1943, but the camouflage pattern illustrated in M.T.P. #46 remained the same. These were colours used in N.W. Europe during the Second Wold War. Originally I had planned to model the Matador after British Army units located in the Orkney Islands, but identifying specific units became very difficult and as it turned out I already had decals for the British 2nd Army.

Harold

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Tuesday, October 27, 2020 3:15 PM

Jack, yes indeed, i do mean the land down under.

“Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?”

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Tuesday, October 27, 2020 3:17 PM

Good to hear your sorted on the markings and scheme Harold.

“Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?”

  • Member since
    April 2014
  • From: Australia
Posted by lostagain on Wednesday, October 28, 2020 5:36 AM

Bish

If the £ drops any more we will have to fly to Oz to find it.

Wondered what that 'splat' noise was...

 https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4740/39804623811_9d42f5cfc1_m.jpg

  • Member since
    April 2014
  • From: Australia
Posted by lostagain on Wednesday, October 28, 2020 6:30 AM

 

Bish – never tried a bust before – looking forward to seeing your techniques.

 

Harold, definitely worth coming down under for a look around. It’s a long flight to get here – so make it a long trip! The Matador is coming along really well, the paint is going down well now that you have sorted out the airbrush and compressor.

 

That has been a huge rabbit hole to go down with the British Army paint colours, makes my head hurt.

 

Svenne, another truck! Excellent! And at a bargain price! Off to a good start there!

 

GreySnake, the Sherman looks really good, an attractive scheme. Very nicely finished, good that you saw it all the way through.

 

Gamera, the Conqueror is looking huge.

 

The Achilles is coming together easily, the Tamiya 1/48 armour kits have been great every time.

 

 https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4740/39804623811_9d42f5cfc1_m.jpg

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Wednesday, October 28, 2020 11:45 AM

Harold and Piers: Those look good guys!!!

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Wednesday, October 28, 2020 3:51 PM

lostagain

 

 
Bish

If the £ drops any more we will have to fly to Oz to find it.

 

 

Wondered what that 'splat' noise was...

 

lostagain

 

 
Bish

If the £ drops any more we will have to fly to Oz to find it.

 

 

Wondered what that 'splat' noise was...

 

Yep, that was our economy.

“Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?”

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Wednesday, October 28, 2020 3:52 PM

Thanks LA, need to get some more work done on that soon.

Nice progress there.

“Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?”

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Wednesday, October 28, 2020 11:38 PM

Thanks, Bish, Cliff and our Mate from down under, in the beautiful land of Australia. I have been reading about Australia and found out it has more dangerous animals in the outback than the jungles of South America or Africa.

Today my progress was limited by other activities, but I did manage to get the windows and mirrors on the cab. The next step is to mask the windows and give the cab a couple of coats of primer. I will use a new liquid mask made by Hobby Pro manufacture of VMS products in Poland. https://www.vms-supplies.com/ 

The split windows on this Matador remind me of a 1932 Model A Ford my neighbor had when we were kids growing up in the country on a farm. That split window ventilation worked rather good on a nice day when it was not raining.

Harold

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Friday, October 30, 2020 9:02 AM

Harold: Looks good! I really like that PE grille. 

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Saturday, October 31, 2020 6:40 AM

Gamera

Harold: Looks good! I really like that PE grille. 

 

Thank you, Cliff. I have the primer on and need to give it 24 hours to dry thoroughly before I do any touch up around the windows.

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Saturday, October 31, 2020 8:37 AM

I am really likeing that Harold, the PE is nicely done and looks great with some paint on. Nice touch haveing the front window open.

Love the sig pic.

“Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?”

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Monday, November 2, 2020 11:21 AM

Looks good to me. You did an excellent job masking off the windows. 

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Monday, November 2, 2020 5:46 PM

Gamera

Looks good to me. You did an excellent job masking off the windows. 

 

I wish that were true my friend. I used liquid masking and it was not applied heavy enough, so in some places I had to remove paint. I talked with Gino about keeping the windows clean while painting and he suggested masking tape instead of liquid masking. So I cleaned the windows as good as I could and taped both sides of all the windows. Then I repainted the cab with a good coat of Vallejo olive drab primer and it looks better than it did, but the proof will be when I remove the tape.

I also received finish paint from my supplier today. I am using a Mike Starmer mix of 5 parts Tamiya XF-61, 2 parts XF-62 and 2 parts XF-3 to get a colour match with British S.C.C. 15 Olive Drab. I painted six clear plastic spoons with Vallejo Olive Drab Surface Primer today and later tonight or tomorrow morning I will paint a couple of spoons with the mixed color. I do not have the color chip Mike is sending me yet, but I am curious to see what it looks like. This is a different mix than the one Mike published in his white paper that Jack and I have been using.

Harold

  • Member since
    April 2006
  • From: ON, Canada
Posted by jgeratic on Monday, November 2, 2020 6:55 PM

Harold, I'm curious too about this new SCC.15 mix, where did you find it?  A pure yellow additive gives me an impression it will be quite different, but still be an olive colour of sorts.

regards,

Jack

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Monday, November 2, 2020 10:43 PM

jgeratic

Harold, I'm curious too about this new SCC.15 mix, where did you find it?  A pure yellow additive gives me an impression it will be quite different, but still be an olive colour of sorts.

regards,

Jack

 

Hello Jack, below is the email Mike sent me with instructions on mixing Tamiya paint to match S.C.C. 15. 

Hello Jim [Harold]

Thank you for your order and payment, confirmed this morning.  Here are the Tamiya mixes you asked for, don't want to stop getting on.
SCC.15 Olive Drab  5 x XF61 + 2 x XF62 + 2 x XF3.  This is slightly darker than the standard so adjust with medium grey for scale.
SCC.14 (black)  XF69 Nato Black is spot on.
I will make up your order today, and advise when posted.
Regards
Mike
 
Jack, I am not sure I know what "adjust with medium grey for scale" means. I decided to just try the mix on a couple of spoons and see how it compares to your sample made from Mike's previous instructions. I will post a picture taken in daylight tomorrow for you to see how it looks.
 
Harold
  • Member since
    April 2006
  • From: ON, Canada
Posted by jgeratic on Monday, November 2, 2020 11:52 PM

"adjust with medium grey for scale"

Scaling colour can be a contentious issue.  Basically since the model subject is small, it reflects less light to the viewer's eye, and the preception of colour results in a more darker shade.  To compensate for this, some suggest lightening the colour slightly. 

 

regards,

Jack

 

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Tuesday, November 3, 2020 7:36 AM

Whoops, my mistake. I didn't enlarge the photos- now I can see where the paint came off... 

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

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