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British Army Group Build 2020

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  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Tuesday, November 3, 2020 1:28 PM

[quote user="Sergeant"]

jgeratic

Don't know if this really helps, just noticed that the Vallejo I have is the correct number 71.016, but is labelled as US Dark Green.  I bought it back in 2013 when it was part of their RAF/FAA set (16 bottles), and it was instructed to be used for RAF day fighter scheme. 

No idea if they changed the formula when relabelled as USAF Olive Drab, but comparing to the digital chip it looks very similar.

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

Well Jack it is raining today, so I tried a different method of photography (on-camera, non-directional lighting). Considering all the variables of lighting, computer screens and paint types I will let you judge for yourself.

Harold

  

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Tuesday, November 3, 2020 1:55 PM

Gamera

Whoops, my mistake. I didn't enlarge the photos- now I can see where the paint came off... 

 

Cliff below are pictures of the masking and painting rework I did yesterday. Gino said he leaves the masking tape on through the entire painting process. I have had bad experience where the paint peeled off places, I did not want it too because I left the tape on too long. However, I am using Tamiya masking tape and it might make a difference, plus I plan to use a sharp blade and score the paint around the windows to prevent the paint from peeling when I remove the tape.

Harold

  

  • Member since
    April 2006
  • From: ON, Canada
Posted by jgeratic on Tuesday, November 3, 2020 6:50 PM

Hello Harold, the new mix looks good, it certainly appears to be from the same 'family' of SCC.15.   It is a bit darker, but Mike did mention this.

Also, good job on the windshield.

 

regards,

Jack

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Tuesday, November 3, 2020 6:56 PM

jgeratic

Hello Harold, the new mix looks good, it certainly appears to be from the same 'family' of SCC.15.   It is a bit darker, but Mike did mention this.

Also, good job on the windshield.

 

regards,

Jack

 

Thank you. I have been looking for your input Jack and that is good news because I totally agree with you on the color. Now my friend how do I lighten the mix? In other words what color would take a touch of darkness out of the mix?

Harold

  

  • Member since
    April 2006
  • From: ON, Canada
Posted by jgeratic on Tuesday, November 3, 2020 11:53 PM

To lighten the colour, I'd not go with grey as it's fairly dull mix already.   I would actually try either XF-71, which was from the original formula, or maybe XF-21 Sky.

I did a quick digital study with XF-21, and would aim between 10 to 20% added to your mix.  Go less if plans are to follow up with weathering.

I used this online blender tool:

https://meyerweb.com/eric/tools/color-blend/#:::rgbd

 

The resulting blends are 100% pure colour at the top and bottom, while the sample increments are at 10%

If you use XF-71, it will take it closer to the original mix.  The results progress to a more visible green, which is how SCC.15 was described the more it aged.

 

regards,

Jack

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Wednesday, November 4, 2020 12:44 AM

Wow Jack that is some great tool you have for mixing paint. As it turns out I didn't have any of these Tamiya colors, so I ordered XF-71, XF-21 and XF-53 tonight and they should arrive by Friday.

Thank you for all your help.

Harold

  

  • Member since
    April 2006
  • From: ON, Canada
Posted by jgeratic on Wednesday, November 4, 2020 9:07 AM

The online colour blender tool is handy, but is really meant for digital colours.  Viewing online and real paint is not the same since the screen is backlit, resulting in a bit brighter colours.  It still is handy to give an idea of colour mixes, but one should still rely on hand mixing paints to make final decisions.

Anyhow, this is what I meant about using grey to lighten the SCC.15 mix.  It does get lighter, but the colour becomes overpowered once past the 10% point.

THe RGB values for Tamiya were obtained from this site by just typing in the paint number xf53 for their Neutral Grey:

https://encycolorpedia.com/search?q=xf53

regards,

Jack

 

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Wednesday, November 4, 2020 10:17 AM

That's interesting, I think I used XF-57 Buff to lighten the colour for the upper surfaces on my Comet. 

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    April 2006
  • From: ON, Canada
Posted by jgeratic on Wednesday, November 4, 2020 10:34 AM

Hello Cliff, yes Tamiya's Buff is another option.  The results, at least digitally, would be the same as using XF-21 Sky.  The Buff does give a bit more yellow overtones the more it grows in percentage.

 

regards,

Jack

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Wednesday, November 4, 2020 11:29 AM

Thanks Jack! 

I may give XF-21 Sky a shot when highlighting the upper surfaces of the Conqueror. 

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Wednesday, November 4, 2020 1:21 PM

Sorry i am not getting involved but i don't really have anything to add. Some great information going up here, nice to see WW2 British colours getting some discussion.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

On the bench: Italeri 1/72nd Bell 212/MPM 1/72nd Bf 109G-12

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Wednesday, November 4, 2020 1:44 PM

I sent Mike Starmer a photograph and let him know how the mixture he suggested turned out. Mike asked me to try increasing the XF-3 just a little and add one-part neutral grey. I did not have neutral grey, so using a pipette I put 100 drops (5-parts) of Tamiya XF-61 Dark Green, 40 drops (2-parts) of XF-62 Olive Drab, 50 drops (2.5-parts) of XF-3 Flat Yellow and 20 drops (1-part) XF-66 Light Grey in a mixing bottle. Below is the result compared to my original mixture. What do you think?

Harold

  

  • Member since
    April 2006
  • From: ON, Canada
Posted by jgeratic on Wednesday, November 4, 2020 4:43 PM

I like the second sample better because it is lighter, but both still look like they are the same colour - which is good.  Once you get Mike's book you can compare directly, but it doesn't need to be an exact match. I've read paint standards could vary as much as 10% and still considered acceptable.

 

regards,

Jack

  • Member since
    February 2005
  • From: Nashotah, WI
Posted by Glamdring on Wednesday, November 4, 2020 5:25 PM

While waiting for the paint to cure on another build, I cracked open the Challenger 2.  All of these subassemblies were basically done in one sitting:

And everything all mocked up:

The way this is falling together, I will probably spend more time going back and browsing the past builds of this GB than building.  That's ok, the painting and finishing will slow me down since I am a brush painter.

Robert

"Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." 

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Wednesday, November 4, 2020 5:25 PM

jgeratic

I like the second sample better because it is lighter, but both still look like they are the same colour - which is good.  Once you get Mike's book you can compare directly, but it doesn't need to be an exact match. I've read paint standards could vary as much as 10% and still considered acceptable.

 

regards,

Jack

 

I agree with you Jack, it does not need to be an exact match to be a reasonable representative of S.C.C. 15. I added sample #3 just to see if decreasing the XF-3 from x2.5 to x2 made any difference and there is a slight difference, but I still like sample #2 best. So, I think it is time to move on and get this Matador painted.

Harold

  

  • Member since
    April 2006
  • From: ON, Canada
Posted by jgeratic on Wednesday, November 4, 2020 6:22 PM

Harold, looking forward to seeing that paint on your Matador.

---------------------

At long last got news that the photo-etch I had designed for my Humber Scout has finally been shipped.   So another 2 weeks or so and can continue my build. 

Here is a sample of the artwork without frets before it is switched to what is used as the 'photo tool':

Black reprensents the solid brass, white is full etch, red half etch front, and blue is half etch backside.

 

regards,

Jack

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Wednesday, November 4, 2020 9:35 PM

jgeratic

Harold, looking forward to seeing that paint on your Matador.

---------------------

At long last got news that the photo-etch I had designed for my Humber Scout has finally been shipped.   So another 2 weeks or so and can continue my build. 

Here is a sample of the artwork without frets before it is switched to what is used as the 'photo tool':

Black reprensents the solid brass, white is full etch, red half etch front, and blue is half etch backside.

 

regards,

Jack

 

Jack is this what you are building?

I started painting the finish coat tonight and it feels good to have a paint color selected that I know is historically accurate. I just got the first coat on one side of the major subassemblies.

Harold

 

  

  • Member since
    April 2006
  • From: ON, Canada
Posted by jgeratic on Wednesday, November 4, 2020 10:13 PM

Yes, that vehicle pictured in the foreground is exactly what I'm building.

Paint looks really good on the Matador.

 

regards,

Jack

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Thursday, November 5, 2020 4:53 AM

jgeratic

Yes, that vehicle pictured in the foreground is exactly what I'm building.

Paint looks really good on the Matador.

 

regards,

Jack

 

That Humber Scout vehicle will be an interesting build Jack, I am looking forward to seeing it when you post photographs.

I received a reply from Mike Starmer regarding the paint mix we have been working on, that you and other members might find interesting.


Hello Jim [Harold]
It is good to see someone else playing with mixes, thank you for your input on this.  Sample 2 looks about right even one [on] my monitor although a little grey.  I put that down to calibration.  I used to work with a Sherman driver of the Northamptonshire Yeomanry in Normandy.  When discussing his tank colour, he told me that his first Sherman was 'dark green' like a lot of other [British] vehicles but its replacement was 'the American brown colour'.  He told me that quite a lot of vehicles were too.  From which I concluded that not too much repainting was carried out, especially on replacements which were not likely to exist for very long.
Regards
Mike

  

  • Member since
    April 2006
  • From: ON, Canada
Posted by jgeratic on Thursday, November 5, 2020 7:45 AM

Harold, that is an interesting quote from the veteran Sherman driver.   It could be his first Sherman had some major work on it to prepare for Normandy, such that it required a repaint in SCC.15.   Another possibilty is a different Olive drab paint applied at the factory.  Either way, the vet would not be able to answer this, as his vehicle would have been delivered to the unit ready to go. 

regards,

Jack

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Thursday, November 5, 2020 2:31 PM

Robert, nice work, that was quick.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

On the bench: Italeri 1/72nd Bell 212/MPM 1/72nd Bf 109G-12

  • Member since
    April 2014
  • From: Australia
Posted by lostagain on Friday, November 6, 2020 3:30 AM

Robert,

the Challenger came together really quickly. If it was a one night effort, it must have gone together really well?

Jack,

Do you get the photo etch done by someone - you just send the artwork?

Harold,

Your colour mix looks good on the Matador. For my Achilles, Tamiya suggested XF 61 straight and I reckon it looks dark:

 I did do lighter coloured highlights on the horizontal surfaces before adding the decals. But the use of a gloss coat also made the scheme darker all round, which was frustrating.

 

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Friday, November 6, 2020 7:15 AM

lostagain

Harold,

Your colour mix looks good on the Matador. For my Achilles, Tamiya suggested XF 61 straight and I reckon it looks dark:

 I did do lighter coloured highlights on the horizontal surfaces before adding the decals. But the use of a gloss coat also made the scheme darker all round, which was frustrating.

 

 

You have done a really nice paint job on the Achilles especially the tools. The Matador may also turn a darker green when I add a gloss coat for decals. After I add the decals I plan to give the entire model a clear matt varnish coat to seal the decals and take the shine off, but it does not normally change the color. So we will see what happens in the next few posts.

By the way, which clear coat product did you use? I normally use Vallejo gloss and matt varnish regardless of which acrylic paint I use.

Harold

  

  • Member since
    April 2006
  • From: ON, Canada
Posted by jgeratic on Friday, November 6, 2020 8:58 AM

Lost, good going with the Achillies.  The overall darkness should decrease once a flat coat is applied.  The paint underneath does not specifically change, but it's the amount of light that reflects back to the eye depending on the surface finish.

--------------------------

The photo etch company I'm dealing with is in Scotland:

https://www.ppdltd.com/

I sent my artwork in vector format.  You can just send in drawings of what you want and have them do the vector work, but the costs would balloon.   I shudder at the thought of what the final price would have been had I gone that route. 

Started working on my PE project mid-July, and sent it in beginning of October.  They quote a turn around of a minumum 2 weeks or up to 6 weeks to get the finished product sent back to you.  Also they quote prices on a minimum size of 150 x 300mm,   so was researching a lot of extra subjects to fill out those dimensions.

Here's what the whole project looks like:

 

regards,

Jack

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Friday, November 6, 2020 9:10 AM

Robert, Harold, Piers, and Jack: Those look great guys, please keep us updated! 

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Friday, November 6, 2020 5:08 PM

Gamera

Robert, Harold, Piers, and Jack: Those look great guys, please keep us updated! 

 

Thank you, Cliff. After Piers mentioned the effect gloss coat had on his finish paint, I decided to test my paint with a gloss coat and matte coat. I learned two important things from this test. (1) the finish colour does in fact get darker, but as Jack indicated it is because of light reflected off the paint. The base colour is unchanged just our preception of the color has changed. We know this is true because when the matte coat is applied the original colour returns, more or less.

(2) I had read that changing the psi on an air compressor can change the surface texture of the paint. Vallejo varnish is a heavy medium, the viscosity is much thicker than Vallejo Model Air paint or Tamiya acrylic paint. I tried applying the varnish at 17 psi and noticed it was textured almost like orange peel. So, I applied 3 coats and it just became more noticeable. After it dried, I applied one coat of matte varnish at 35 psi and the texture began to smooth out. neither the gloss nor matte varnishes were thinned.

Conclusion: the perceived color will change with a gloss coat and the psi must be increased with heavier mediums like varnish. Thinning the varnish will allow application at a lower air pressure. Perhaps if I had a smooth gloss coat to start with one or two matte coats would have restored the paint to its original color. The gloss coat is only needed to provide a smooth surface for decals. If the finish coat of paint is smooth enough it may not be necessary to have a gloss coat.

Harold

  

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Saturday, November 7, 2020 10:55 PM

I am almost done with assembly and the base coat S.C.C. 15 Olive Drab paint. I have a little more to do on the interior then I can glue the cab together. The next step will be to install 28 gage, dead soft, copper wire on the canopy as tie-down rope. This will be threaded through the holes on the sides of the canopy and secured on exterior truck bed hooks. Then I can glue the canopy to the truck bed. Once that is done, I can install decals and add the camouflage in Nato Black which will represent S.C.C. 14 paint.

I have practiced free-hand camouflage painting for a couple of days on art paper and decided to use a combination of forest camo airbrush stencil template and free-hand to apply the Matador camouflage. The stencil set is shown below.

Harold

 

  

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Tuesday, November 10, 2020 1:38 PM

I have some good news and bad news. I have completed all the assembly and base coat of S.C.C. 15 paint. Waiting now for the camouflage stencil template to arrive so I can complete the rest of the painting and decals. The bad news is I did not take a photograph of the interior painting before I glued the cab together. I did remember to remove the masking tape on the inside of the windows, but I am afraid the interior will need to wait until the painting is all done to be seen.

I also received Mike Starmer's books today and was pleased to see that my S.C.C. 15 Olive Drab paint matches his colour chip perfectly. However, I was surprised to see that his book British Army Colours & Disruptive Camouflage in the United Kingdom, France and NW Europe 1936-1945, updated in December 2019 did not include the Tamiya mixes in his article https://www.mafva.org/british-vehicle-camouflage-1939-45/?v=79cba1185463. But I have no doubt that Mike is the kind of person that will help modelers find the best Tamiya paint to match whatever British colour we are trying to represent. I am a big fan of Mike Starmer and highly recommend his books for British military colours and camouflage patterns.

Harold

  

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Tuesday, November 10, 2020 2:32 PM

Pic of the inside or not, thats looking very nice harold. look forward to seeing the camo on and how you get on with those stencils.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

On the bench: Italeri 1/72nd Bell 212/MPM 1/72nd Bf 109G-12

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Tuesday, November 10, 2020 3:52 PM

Bish

Pic of the inside or not, thats looking very nice harold. look forward to seeing the camo on and how you get on with those stencils.

 

Thank you Bish, I am excited to get started on the camouflage. The photographs in my recent post were taken with a combination of on-camera direct flash lighting and indirect LED and incandescent lighting to reproduce the color as it actually appears to my eyes. The colour chip Mike provided in his book matches my spoon sample perfectly.

  

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