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Supermarine/Vickers GB

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  • Member since
    April 2020
  • From: West Texas
Posted by JBRaider on Saturday, January 30, 2021 10:14 AM

thank you Jack

Those links were very helpful

  • Member since
    April 2006
  • From: ON, Canada
Posted by jgeratic on Saturday, January 30, 2021 9:42 AM

From the factory, the wheel well where the tire sits would be painted to match undersides, while the narrow portion where the leg rests would be painted aluminum.  If the b/w undersides were applied in the field, not sure if the paint application would be as neat.

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235034296-wheel-well-colours-bob-spitfire-hurricane-defiant/

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235036044-colour-for-undercarriage-bays-on-a-mk1a-spitfire/

regards,

Jack

  • Member since
    April 2020
  • From: West Texas
Posted by JBRaider on Saturday, January 30, 2021 9:03 AM

I started on the cockpit this morning working on the seatbelts and trying to make some raised details on the instrument panel.

As I was going over the instructions I noticed the version I will be working on which has the Black/White undersides on the wings calls for the wheel bays and the inside of the landing gear covers to match the color of each wing. I assumed they would be aluminum or maybe interior green but I have not been able to find any good references for what the actual color on this scheme should be. 

Any input on the correct color would be appreciated. 

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Friday, January 29, 2021 11:48 AM

Nick: The mottling and pre-shading look great, esp on the underside. Yes

JB: Welcome! 

 

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Friday, January 29, 2021 2:25 AM

Glad to have you on board JB. I'll get you added at the weekend when i have a bit of time to catch up on everything.

Unfortunatly, there is no vaccine for the GB bug, once its got you, thats it for life.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

  • Member since
    April 2020
  • From: West Texas
Posted by JBRaider on Thursday, January 28, 2021 5:16 PM

I have been bitten by the group build bug.

I would like to join in with an Airfix 1/72 Spitfire Mk.1a

  • Member since
    July 2014
Posted by modelcrazy on Thursday, January 28, 2021 3:03 PM

Nick, that looks excelent!

Steve

Building a kit from your stash is like cutting a head off a Hydra, two more take it's place.

 

 

http://www.spamodeler.com/forum/

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Thursday, January 28, 2021 2:46 PM

Good to see the paint going on Nick, the pre shading seems to be working well.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Thursday, January 28, 2021 2:45 PM

I never had any luck with pre-shading frank, look forward to seeing how yours come out.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

  • Member since
    August 2015
  • From: the redlands Fl
Posted by crown r n7 on Thursday, January 28, 2021 1:22 PM

FotoFrank. The preshadeing looks good, I'll be watching Yes

Sergeant. Nice pics ! 

Gamera and Bish thank you..

I gave some med sea gray over some black motteling. The landing gear is in place. I need to touch up here and there before masking.

  .Nick

  • Member since
    June 2017
  • From: Winter Park, FL
Posted by fotofrank on Thursday, January 28, 2021 10:12 AM

Thanks, guys. I'm anxious to get the camo started to see how it will look over the pre-shading. Today it's too cool to be out on the patio shooting paint so I may have to wait a couple of days before applying color. In the meantime I should probably clean my airbrush.

OK. On the bench: Way too much to build in one lifetime...

  • Member since
    March 2003
  • From: Western North Carolina
Posted by Tojo72 on Thursday, January 28, 2021 8:52 AM
Looks good Frank,looking forward to seeing those masks in action

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Thursday, January 28, 2021 8:38 AM

Frank: I like the pre-shading too. Looking forward to the final results. 

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Wednesday, January 27, 2021 2:15 PM

fotofrank

Spitfire Mk VIII update: Sprayed the MM enamel primer the other day. Today I did some pre-shading. Since these Spitfires operated in North Africa and Italy I'm sure the paint was pretty well sun bleached. I dusted the upper surfaces with Tamiya Flat White thinned 4/1. Then I preshaded the panel lines with Tamiya Rubber Black. I hope the color difference shows up well under the two-color desert camouflage.

 

Frank, I am watching closely because I have never done any preshading of panel lines, but I have seen some great results.

Harold

  • Member since
    June 2017
  • From: Winter Park, FL
Posted by fotofrank on Wednesday, January 27, 2021 1:47 PM

Spitfire Mk VIII update: Sprayed the MM enamel primer the other day. Today I did some pre-shading. Since these Spitfires operated in North Africa and Italy I'm sure the paint was pretty well sun bleached. I dusted the upper surfaces with Tamiya Flat White thinned 4/1. Then I preshaded the panel lines with Tamiya Rubber Black. I hope the color difference shows up well under the two-color desert camouflage.

OK. On the bench: Way too much to build in one lifetime...

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Tuesday, January 26, 2021 4:23 PM

jgeratic

Wish it were that straight forward, but working backwards from his last mission, was able to find several entries for the month of November 1944.  See beginning with file no. 4 listed here (after clicking 'preview an image of this record'):

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8389809

October and September, Schopp is not on any of the 153 Sqn roster lists.  This might mean he was indeed with another squadron before November '44, but which one?   That is a lot of fighter units to consider, even if you take out the auxiliary ones.

regards,

Jack

 

Jack, I see what you mean. Plus, it looks like he flew several different aircraft while he was in 153 Squadron. So, he could have been qualified to fly almost anything the RAF had at the time.

Harold

  • Member since
    April 2006
  • From: ON, Canada
Posted by jgeratic on Tuesday, January 26, 2021 4:02 PM

Wish it were that straight forward, but working backwards from his last mission, was able to find several entries for the month of November 1944.  See beginning with file no. 4 listed here (after clicking 'preview an image of this record'):

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8389809

October and September, Schopp is not on any of the 153 Sqn roster lists.  This might mean he was indeed with another squadron before November '44, but which one?   That is a lot of fighter units to consider, even if you take out the auxiliary ones.

regards,

Jack

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Tuesday, January 26, 2021 1:49 PM

jgeratic

It's easily possible he was a fighter pilot with another squadron during the period before transferring to bombers.  In 1940,  Canada had the lone fighter squadron operational as no.1 RCAF Squadron (Hurricane).  But Canadian pilots were also posted to many RAF Squadrons.

In March 1941, no.1 RCAF become number 401.  Henceforth, all RCAF fighter squadrons were numbered in the 4XX range.  Canadians though, would contiue to fill rosters of RAF squadrons as well, some even becoming squadron leaders of RAF units.

But 153 Squadron is interesting because they began the war as a fighter unit, flying Defiants, followed by Bristol Beaufighter types.  Is it not possible your uncle was stationed with this unit right from the start?

 

regards,

Jack

 

Yes, Jack I see your point, he may have always been in 153 Squadron right through the transition from fighters to bombers. I knew 153 Squadron had been in existence since the First World War, but never thought about the fact they were originally a fighter squadron at the start of the Second World War.

It appears 153 Squadron had Defiant, Beaufighter, Hurricane and Spitfire planes before they transitioned to Lancaster bombers. Thank you Jack, you very possibly have solved a bit of missing history for my family.

Harold

  • Member since
    April 2006
  • From: ON, Canada
Posted by jgeratic on Tuesday, January 26, 2021 1:35 PM

It's easily possible he was a fighter pilot with another squadron during the period before transferring to bombers.  In 1940,  Canada had the lone fighter squadron operational as no.1 RCAF Squadron (Hurricane).  But Canadian pilots were also posted to many RAF Squadrons.

In March 1941, no.1 RCAF become number 401.  Henceforth, all RCAF fighter squadrons were numbered in the 4XX range.  Canadians though, would contiue to fill rosters of RAF squadrons as well, some even becoming squadron leaders of RAF units.

But 153 Squadron is interesting because they began the war as a fighter unit, flying Defiants, followed by Bristol Beaufighter types.  Is it not possible your uncle was stationed with this unit right from the start?

 

regards,

Jack

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Tuesday, January 26, 2021 12:56 PM

jgeratic

An RCAF pilot's badge, now that would explain the curve visible along the bottom.

On a whim, I thought of trying to find a serial for an aircraft flown by your uncle, but the online diares for 242 Squadron have no listing for Schopp during the first six months of 1941?

 

regards,

Jack

 

Cliff, Bish and Jack thank you for allowing me to remember my Uncle in this thread. I have no information confirming where my Uncle was stationed prior to 1944. What I do know is 242 Squadron was made up of Canadian pilots under the command of Wing Cdr. Bader flying Spitfires in 1941. I have assumed that my Uncle was in 242 Squadron because he wrote his family that he was a Fighter Pilot.

Below is a link to some additional information about his location prior to 1944; however, it is not 100% accurate. Uncle Harold was born in 1918, was trained as a pilot in Canada and arrived in England or the U.K. in late 1940 or early 1941. He was a Flight Sergeant Pilot as evident by his picture and age at time of enlistment. We know he was not killed in Germany; he was killed in a mid-air collision over Leon, France returning from Ulm, German. He was not living in the U.S. at the time of enlistment, he was living in Canada with his Uncle Poole's family in Nova Scotia.

http://www.inportercounty.org/Data/Military/WWIIList/SchoppHaroldHarrison.html

Harold

  • Member since
    April 2006
  • From: ON, Canada
Posted by jgeratic on Tuesday, January 26, 2021 11:17 AM

An RCAF pilot's badge, now that would explain the curve visible along the bottom.

On a whim, I thought of trying to find a serial for an aircraft flown by your uncle, but the online diares for 242 Squadron have no listing for Schopp during the first six months of 1941?

 

regards,

Jack

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Tuesday, January 26, 2021 9:17 AM

Ye, that does look like a crown above the wings, and its hard to tell, but i think i can make out the C behind the RAF.

So your Uncle must have been based at RAF Coltishall in 1940 i take it.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Tuesday, January 26, 2021 8:59 AM

Frank: Looks good!!! 

Harold: Interesting story about your uncle's service- thanks for sharing with us. No idea about the underside colour- it all confuses me.  

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Monday, January 25, 2021 11:57 PM

jgeratic

Hello Harold, yes I do believe I can make out the crown part of the badge in your uncle's photo, though it seems a bit different style.   I find it difficult to make out the RAF logo surrounded by the wreath?

Concerning the paint colour of the spinner and fuselage band, as mandated these should be the same as the undersides - Sky Type S.  Past threads on the subject over at Britmodeller has the hivemind in a bit of debate as to what they are seeing in photographs.   The spinner was suppose to have been pre-painted at the facility where they were made, before shipping off to aircraft manufacturing plants.  Fuselage bands were also painted at aircraft assembly, before delivering to squadrons.

regards,

Jack

 

Jack, I think the Vallejo Sky Type S is what I will go with mainly because I have the paint already and you have found very strong evidence that it is the right color.

Regarding my Uncle's wings. After I posted a picture of him I realized that he never left the Royal Canadian Air Force. His service number changed when he was commissioned to Flying Officer, but he was always in the Royal Canadian Air Force as evident by his casualty notice.

Therefore his wings would be slightly different than those of an RAF pilot as shown below.

  • Member since
    April 2006
  • From: ON, Canada
Posted by jgeratic on Monday, January 25, 2021 11:36 PM

Hello Harold, yes I do believe I can make out the crown part of the badge in your uncle's photo, though it seems a bit different style.   I find it difficult to make out the RAF logo surrounded by the wreath?

Concerning the paint colour of the spinner and fuselage band, as mandated these should be the same as the undersides - Sky Type S.  Past threads on the subject over at Britmodeller has the hivemind in a bit of debate as to what they are seeing in photographs.   The spinner was suppose to have been pre-painted at the facility where they were made, before shipping off to aircraft manufacturing plants.  Fuselage bands were also painted at aircraft assembly, before delivering to squadrons.

regards,

Jack

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Monday, January 25, 2021 10:06 PM

jgeratic

Bader's Spitfire P7966 definitely should have the Sky Type S undersides.  Now the spinner and fuselage band should be this same paint, but it's not the first time I've seen model instruction/artwork suggesting a lighter blue. 

Could be just fresh paint or lighting creating the difference between undersides and band colours.  Will do some further searches about this ...

 

regards,

Jack

 

Thank you, Jack. I chose to build Douglas Bader's Spitfire Mk-IIa because I believe my Uncle Harold served in his 242 Squadron (the Canadian Squadron as it was called). I found additional information that confirms my Uncle was a Flight Sergeant Pilot when he first arrived in England in 1940 - 1941. It also confirms that he was a Flying Officer (Lieutenant) when he died in 1944 at the age of 26. He was the  pilot of an AVRO Lancaster bomber in 153 Squadron of Bomber Command.

Harold

 

  • Member since
    April 2006
  • From: ON, Canada
Posted by jgeratic on Monday, January 25, 2021 7:01 PM

Bader's Spitfire P7966 definitely should have the Sky Type S undersides.  Now the spinner and fuselage band should be this same paint, but it's not the first time I've seen model instruction/artwork suggesting a lighter blue. 

Could be just fresh paint or lighting creating the difference between undersides and band colours.  Will do some further searches about this ...

 

regards,

Jack

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Monday, January 25, 2021 6:31 PM

jgeratic

Hello Harold, just your luck you chose the RAF period of 1940 when the underside colour scheme went through a number of changes.   This is a good primer here:

https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Camouflage-Markings/Supermarine-Spitfire

Basically, during the first week of June, a new underside colour was issued, known as Sky Type S.   Prior to this, it was the half night(black) and white scheme.  

There was a shortage of this new paint, so fighter squadrons began applying different colours that may have been considered acceptable matches.  Some mixed their own paints, or acquiring paints that looked similar - or by way of verbal expression seemed to match by description like "duck egg blue".   By end of August or early September 1940, it's considered the majority of fighters sported the proper paint.

 

So which squadron and time frame are you looking at?

 

regards,

Jack

 

The plane I am building was flown by Wing Cdr. Douglas Bader, RAF Tangmere June and July 1941. I believe he was in 242 Squadron while in command of the Tangmere and Duxford Wing.

Harold

  • Member since
    April 2006
  • From: ON, Canada
Posted by jgeratic on Monday, January 25, 2021 6:05 PM

Hello Harold, just your luck you chose the RAF period of 1940 when the underside colour scheme went through a number of changes.   This is a good primer here:

https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Camouflage-Markings/Supermarine-Spitfire

Basically, during the first week of June, a new underside colour was issued, known as Sky Type S.   Prior to this, it was the half night(black) and white scheme.  

There was a shortage of this new paint, so fighter squadrons began applying different colours that may have been considered acceptable matches.  Some mixed their own paints, or acquiring paints that looked similar - or by way of verbal expression seemed to match by description like "duck egg blue".   By end of August or early September 1940, it's considered the majority of fighters sported the proper paint.

 

So which squadron and time frame are you looking at?

 

regards,

Jack

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Monday, January 25, 2021 4:06 PM

I am having difficulty identifying some of the Vallejo colors to use on my Spitfire Mk-IIa. I was able to identify the Dark Earth Brown and Dark Green, but the two shades of light blue have me confused.

The first picture below is from my Eduards instruction booklet that shows what color to use for the band of light blue at the rear of the fuselage. It is 'Light Bluegreen, H417, C117 and MMP 051' The other light blue color is used underneath the wings and fuselage. It is 'Sky, H74, C368, MMP 080'.

I am not familiar with Eduards color codes, can someone help me identify the correct Vallejo match for the two light blue colors?

Below is the color chart from my Vallejo paint set. It has two options for underneath the wings and fuselage. Either 'Eau Nil "D.E. Green" or Duck Egg Blue'. Duck Egg Blue is Vallejo #71.404, and it is only available in their paint set. I have Vallejo #71.302 Sky Type S which looks similar, but I am not sure it is the same as Duck Egg Blue.

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