Firebirds! Forest Fire Fighting Aircraft GB.

Hi Aaron,

That S58 is awesome.  Very nice! 

As a Fire Ranger, my first non-training flight was a crew re-location from Dryden, Ontario to Kenora, Ontario, in 1983.  10 Rangers and gear in the back with the door open!  Yee-haw!

What is interesting about that helo in Northern Ontario is the lack of skid gear.  99.99% of the terrain is uneven or beaver meadow (bog) so use of wheeled helo for helitack is quite limited to say the least.   I guess you have to make do with the tools at hand.

I will also be completing a started kit.   I started a Hobby Craft Grumman Tracker in the early 90's and got called away to an early fire season.   The Province of Ontario bought 6 or 8 of these aircraft from the Canadian Navy, when they scrapped the "Bonaventure", Canada's only aircraft carrier.  These landbased attack aircraft were used in Ontario to drop retardant for a couple of seasons in the late 1970's.  

This started kit is a bit banged up.   I found it in the toy box at least twice, so it deserves to be finished!  

I would appeciate learning about making my own decals.

Can anyone provide a link to a good site or provide advice?

Thanks,

Shouldda

Aaronw wrote:

Ok, well then unless someone else has an idea for a badge I'll clean those up.   I was wondering if anyone knows more about the P-47, I have seen one pic of the P-47 fitted with large underwing drop tanks supposedly from one of the tanker tests. Anyone know if any were ever used even semi-operationally and did the water drop out of the tanks like other tankers or was it supposed to drop the tanks like bombs. I know some of the earlier ideas were focused on "bombing" the fire with things like wooden kegs full of water. The first operational tankers were just Ag planes with up to 150 gallons of water, I would think a P-47 could have carried more if they figured out a tank system for it. I was thinking a P-47 tanker would be kind of neat even if it is a "what if" build, but would be more fun if they had actually used them a couple of times, kind of an old school Firehog.

Here's what I know about the P-47.

There were tests done using a 2 P-47Ns and a B-29 (this plane was named 'Rocky Mountain Ranger') by the U.S.F.S. in 1947. The P-47s were configured with water 'bombs' that were dropped above the fire. At a preset altitude, an explosive charge would blow the 'bomb' apart, spreading water over the burn area extenguishing the fire. Theoretically! From what I have read, the explosive charge did more to extinguish the fire than the water that was released. The B-29 also carried water 'bombs' internally.

There were plans to have 30 B-29s flying as water bombers during the 1948 season. Due to lack of funding the 'Rocky Mountain Ranger' was the only one to drop 'bombs'. 

As to whether either were actually used on a fire? I am not sure. Apparently the P-47s were as to the fact, stated, above about the explosive charge. 

I hope this helps. 

It will be nice to see an S-2 in something other than CDF markings.

There are a few options for custom decals depending on what you need. One of the easiest is just using microsoft word. You can use it for the lettering and by inserting cropped and edited photos of markings you can use it to scale logos and such. The Word art feature lets you make more fanciful lettering as well.

Microsoft paint can be used to make up logos fro scratch, then again inserting the finished design into word to adjust the final size.

That is the easy & cheap method since it uses a program most people already have. The downside it they are pixel based images so adjusting the size tends to distort the image and the detail is a little fuzzy on smaller images.

Testors offers a decal making program, but from what I've seen of the free sample and heard from people who bought the full program, it doesn't really offer much over the method I described above.   

If you expect to get serious about custom decals, vector based programs like Corel Draw work well. The images in a vector based program do not use pixels so there is no distortion when altering size, so you can make a nice big image, say 6x6" making it easy to draw in fine details, then shrink it down to 1/4 x 1/4" for your decal. You may lose some detail just because you can no longer see it, but it will be there at least down to the level of precision of your printer. These programs are not cheap, but sometimes you can get a student / teacher version which is far more reasonable in price. Another option would be to use the program somewhere else (library or college maybe?) then save the file as a pdf so you can print it elsewhere without needing the program. Sometime you can download a 30 day trial of a program which would work for a one time need (or work like crazy in that 30 days and make up a ton of decals ) 

The other issue is your printer, standard color inkjet and laser printers work fine for many decals, but don't do white or metallics, light colors (grey, yellow etc) can also be a problem on a dark colored model.

There are several brands of decal film, Micromark, Bare Metal Foil and Testors are ones I've used, but there are many others. They are available in clear and white film, and you need to buy them for your type of printer. You can not use inkjet film in a laser printer or the reverse.

The easiest option is just go with a custom decal maker. There are several out there, I sent some designs to diecast & decals earlier this year and they came back very nice. He uses an ALPS printer so white & metallics are possible. You could check with Joe Osborn at Fireball Modelworks too, I think he does some custom printing in addition to his regular line.

I know diecast and decals will also do design work in addition to printing if you send a photo of the decals you need. I did my own art work but he was very helpful giving me some instruction to tweak my designs for the best effect. Using a custom printer for you decals costs more than doing it yourself but compares to other aftermarket decals so is pretty reasonable.

http://diecastanddecals.com/

http://webpages.charter.net/osborn82/index.htm

I was pretty sure your list was longer, I saw a few B-17's as a kid, but during my career it was DC4/6/7s, PB4Y2s, C130s, and S2s, along with the current P3s, P2s, S2Ts and of course now the DC10. (I'll keep my opinion to myself on that last one)   

I've heard Neptune is looking at the Dash-8 as a possible replacement for their P2's when the airframes reach their max flight hours. Also read something a few years back that they were considering a P2T turbo prop conversion, but I'm guessing the flight hour limitation has probably ended that possibility.

My guess is the P-47 and B-29 probably don't look much different from any other military aircraft at the time. However a lack of photos would mean its just as hard to prove they were not painted in a different more interesting scheme. This might provide an excuse to get over to the USS Hornet and see what they have in the air tanker display. 

A DC-10!!!!!?????? I knew they were testing a 747 at Evergreen Int., but a DC-10???? Makes a bit more sense to me really. A lil more manouverable I would think. Although for its size a 747 can turn pretty good. I remember seeing the S-2s in California when they were still green with orange panels. Absolutely loved the sound of those short stacked 1820s popping as they passed! Also saw a DC-6 or 7 pretty close one time. I just wish like hell I would have taken notice of the tanker number on the tail. It had prop spinners and the red cheat line with white top is bout all I can remember, and it sounded damn good! I also remember seeing a B-17 and C-119 flying east, prolly early '80s time frame. Now that I know more about them, I prolly was witnessing some of there last flights and didn't know it. Also one time travelling I-5 going past the Stockton airport I could see a 2 PBYs, C-97, and C-119 lined up ready for action.

Cheers, Richie

Aaronw wrote:

I was pretty sure your list was longer, I saw a few B-17's as a kid, but during my career it was DC4/6/7s, PB4Y2s, C130s, and S2s, along with the current P3s, P2s, S2Ts and of course now the DC10. (I'll keep my opinion to myself on that last one)    I've heard Neptune is looking at the Dash-8 as a possible replacement for their P2's when the airframes reach their max flight hours. Also read something a few years back that they were considering a P2T turbo prop conversion, but I'm guessing the flight hour limitation has probably ended that possibility.   My guess is the P-47 and B-29 probably don't look much different from any other military aircraft at the time. However a lack of photos would mean its just as hard to prove they were not painted in a different more interesting scheme. This might provide an excuse to get over to the USS Hornet and see what they have in the air tanker display.

Here is the only picture Dan has been able to come up with for the B-29. You are correct in that it pretty much appears to be a straight-forward B-29 with the U.S.F.S. emblem and 'Rocky Mountain Ranger' painted on the side. Here are the three pictures of the P-47 from Scale Fire Bombers. It appears that the only difference in the P-47 fire bomber and a standard P-47 is the U.S.F.S. emblem on the cowl.

And, it appears that our opinion of the DC-10 is pretty close to the same.

While not relavent to the build ......................how about a list of your fire bomber stash?

I'll start with my 1/48 stuff.

3 - A-26B/C Invaders:  2 - B-25J Mitchells:  3 - O-2A Skymasters:  3 - OV-10A Broncos:  2 - T-28B Trojans:  3 - F7F-3 Tigercats:  1 - F-15A Reporter:  1 - P-61B Blackwidow:

In 1/72.

4 - S-2A Trackers:  3 - P-3C Orions:  3 - C-119G Flying Boxcars:  2 - P2V-7 Neptunes:  2 - DC-6B Super-Cloudmasters:  2 - H-34 Choctaws:  1 - CL-215 Super Scooper:  1 - OV-10A Bronco

And each and everyone has a purpose for being built.

chopperfan wrote:

While not relavent to the build ......................how about a list of your fire bomber stash? I'll start with my 1/48 stuff. 3 - A-26B/C Invaders:  2 - B-25J Mitchells:  3 - O-2A Skymasters:  3 - OV-10A Broncos:  2 - T-28B Trojans:  3 - F7F-3 Tigercats:  1 - F-15A Reporter:  1 - P-61B Blackwidow: In 1/72. 4 - S-2A Trackers:  3 - P-3C Orions:  3 - C-119G Flying Boxcars:  2 - P2V-7 Neptunes:  2 - DC-6B Super-Cloudmasters:  2 - H-34 Choctaws:  1 - CL-215 Super Scooper:  1 - OV-10A Bronco And each and everyone has a purpose for being built.

All of my intended firebombers are in 1/72: DC-6, S-2, A-26, TBM?, Beaver?

Aaron, saw your Revell P-3 listed there and went "DUH!" yeah, so add that one to my list as well. lol

Thats about all I have that I have intended for, or contemplating building as firebombers.

Cheers, richie

My fire stash is a bit smaller, all 1/72

Revell P3 Orion

Academy PBY-5A

Hasegawa B25J (mostly for the engines so I can make the PBY a Super Cat, not sure what the B25 will become)

Airfix A-26

A couple Monogram F7F Tigercats

A couple Hasegawa S2 Trackers

A couple Hasegawa P2 Neptunes

Heller CL215

Italeri HH53C

Fujimi CH-46

A couple Italeri UH-1N

A couple Italeri UH-1D

An Italeri UH-1F

Hasegawa UH-60

Revell Germany Seaking

A couple Italeri UH-34's with the Cobra company S58T conversion

Probably missing something bu that's most of them, thinking I might get a 1/144 DC10 just for giggles, since CDF is blowing millions on the stupid thing I guess I could go to the trouble of building one.

Simpilot, there is a clip of the DC10 at about 0:45 in this youtube video. Actually the whole video could be rather inspiring for the build.   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bqlM-oBnT8

THATS A S***LOAD OF RETARDANT !!!!!!!! Cool videos!!!!!! Thanks Aaron! Got the engines for my DC-6 yesterday and here is a pic of one. They are produced by Engines&Things, and I got them from Roll Models.

Cheers, Richie

Hey, Aaron! About the middle of that video shows a C-54/DC-4 (#65) taking off. That plane was at Sequoia Field, North of Visalia, CA, in March of 2007. Along with a C-130 (#63). I'm not sure if you are in Yosemite or close but, you might be able to get some really good walk around shots of both.

My youngest son was out there then, visiting my sister and her family, and got a few shots for me. But, he doesn't know a whole lot of what kind of pictures I was wanting.

I'll post the ones I have.

chopperfan wrote:

Hey, Aaron! About the middle of that video shows a C-54/DC-4 (#65) taking off. That plane was at Sequoia Field, North of Visalia, CA, in March of 2007. Along with a C-130 (#63). I'm not sure if you are in Yosemite or close but, you might be able to get some really good walk around shots of both. My youngest son was out there then, visiting my sister and her family, and got a few shots for me. But, he doesn't know a whole lot of what kind of pictures I was wanting. I'll post the ones I have.

Here are a few of the C-130.

I didn't notice this until I was uploading them to Photobucket. There's an S-2 in the background with it's wings folded. 

bondoman wrote:

chopperfan wrote: Hey, Aaron! About the middle of that video shows a C-54/DC-4 (#65) taking off. That plane was at Sequoia Field, North of Visalia, CA, in March of 2007. Along with a C-130 (#63). I'm not sure if you are in Yosemite or close but, you might be able to get some really good walk around shots of both. My youngest son was out there then, visiting my sister and her family, and got a few shots for me. But, he doesn't know a whole lot of what kind of pictures I was wanting. I'll post the ones I have.   Now thats an aircraft! Where will you get props? One of my bigger whines is that there is not a comprehensive source of props in 1/72, say by manufacturer. I put a set from a B-17F on my C-54: they look good but I could not vouch for their accuracy.

Hey, Bondo!!

Aeroclub offers a couple of different H.S. 13' 6" 3 blade props. The C-54's props were 13' 1". If a person had a couple of Monogram F7F's that were trashed, the props for them are 13' 1" H.S.'s. I'll have to check into that.

Thanks for the great pics Randie! Didn't know there were any C-130 tankers left. #65 was looking very nice as well! Often wonder why the DC-4/C-54 soldiers on and the DC-6s are all gone when they have a bigger payload. Maybe thats just it, their payload is what killed them. Fatigue life prolly reached. Didn't think you could wear out a DC-6.

Cheers, RIchie

simpilot34 wrote:

Thanks for the great pics Randie! Didn't know there were any C-130 tankers left. #65 was looking very nice as well! Often wonder why the DC-4/C-54 soldiers on and the DC-6s are all gone when they have a bigger payload. Maybe thats just it, their payload is what killed them. Fatigue life prolly reached. Didn't think you could wear out a DC-6. Cheers, RIchie

You can't wear out a DC3/4/6/7 but Douglas is gone so there was nobody to vouch for them. Engineers have said the DC's could fly forever with proper maintenance but without a manuafacturer sticking their neck out with a flight hour life the USFS axed them. Interestingly the FAA does not support the measures the USFS followed. The FAA just wanted qualified inspectors, something still lacking in the program.

There are no civilian C130 tankers left, the aircraft are still around but not flying as tankers. The Military still uses the C130 MAFFS though. Theoretically we could see later model C130's again, the A model is the one that was banned.

I have no idea when I'd get the chance but I'll try to swing by Sequoia field if I do and see if they are still there.

Aaronw wrote:

simpilot34 wrote: Thanks for the great pics Randie! Didn't know there were any C-130 tankers left. #65 was looking very nice as well! Often wonder why the DC-4/C-54 soldiers on and the DC-6s are all gone when they have a bigger payload. Maybe thats just it, their payload is what killed them. Fatigue life prolly reached. Didn't think you could wear out a DC-6. Cheers, RIchie   You can't wear out a DC3/4/6/7 but Douglas is gone so there was nobody to vouch for them. Engineers have said the DC's could fly forever with proper maintenance but without a manuafacturer sticking their neck out with a flight hour life the USFS axed them. Interestingly the FAA does not support the measures the USFS followed. The FAA just wanted qualified inspectors, something still lacking in the program. There are no civilian C130 tankers left, the aircraft are still around but not flying as tankers. The Military still uses the C130 MAFFS though. Theoretically we could see later model C130's again, the A model is the one that was banned. I have no idea when I'd get the chance but I'll try to swing by Sequoia field if I do and see if they are still there.

Thanks for that info Aaron! Didn't know the real cause. Thats really sad to hear as well. My heart sank when I read that. To know that now and to look at the pics I have of Tanker 68 getting cut up........knowing there was still alot of life left in the old girl is heartwrenching. I guess its the same thing with the S-2s, but that company still exists for support. They wore out the engines but not the airframe. Good ol Grumman Iron Works eh? I thought the FAA would have been the bad guys, but exactly the opposite. It's all very sad.

, Richie 

I don't think the DC's will get cut up, they are still perfectly usable for air cargo etc, just not as tankers for the USFS. I know several states were looking at contracting them as Tankers, AZ, CA, OR and WA in particular so there is some hope to see them again. Always a chance the USFS will adopt a more reasonable policy with a new administration next year, or not who knows.

Aaronw wrote:

I don't think the DC's will get cut up, they are still perfectly usable for air cargo etc, just not as tankers for the USFS. I know several states were looking at contracting them as Tankers, AZ, CA, OR and WA in particular so there is some hope to see them again. Always a chance the USFS will adopt a more reasonable policy with a new administration next year, or not who knows.

Dad took me out there to see the rows of a/c.

I just saw this thread and started looking around at the different Firebombers still in use.  I was surprised to see lots of P2V's still in use.  My father flew in P2V-5's during the cold war.  Is there anywhere you guys know of that shows which particular planes were converted to fire attack use?  It would be really cool to see his actual plane still flying!

Grif, you can prolly go to airliners.net and search for the P-2. I'm positive there will be some Tanker shots. You could also go to airtanker.com and go to there nice gallery they have.

Cheers, Richie

Grifter123 wrote:

I just saw this thread and started looking around at the different Firebombers still in use.  I was surprised to see lots of P2V's still in use.  My father flew in P2V-5's during the cold war.  Is there anywhere you guys know of that shows which particular planes were converted to fire attack use?  It would be really cool to see his actual plane still flying!

Grifter? Do you know the BuNo of his plane? If so, I could do some searching and see if it is still flying. Let me know. 

Not right now, but I will get it when I get home from work and get back. Thanks!

Richie, Thanks for the links 

Grifter123 wrote:

BuNo 131481

Sorry, Grifter. I cross referenced all Lockheed aircraft still registered or on display and hit all around 131481 but, it appears that A.M.A.R.C. may have gotten to her. I sure wish I could have come up with better news. 

simpilot34 wrote:

Grif, you can prolly go to airliners.net and search for the P-2. I'm positive there will be some Tanker shots. You could also go to airtanker.com and go to there nice gallery they have. Cheers, Richie

Thats horrible, I would have thought a flyable DC6 with good maintenance records would have been worth more than to be treated like a big pile of aluminum cans.  

Grif there is a warbirds site that can help track aircraft

 http://www.warbirdregistry.org/ 

Found 131482, but no 81.

oh well, thanks for looking into it guys, I appreciate your efforts.

I'll check that warbirds site, maybe dad will remember a secondary plane that's still kicking.

Grifter123 wrote:

oh well, thanks for looking into it guys, I appreciate your efforts. I'll check that warbirds site, maybe dad will remember a secondary plane that's still kicking.

What unit was he with? I have a website of a squadron that that particular plane flew with. I might be able to cross reference the other numbers with existing birds? Let me know. 

chopperfan wrote:

What unit was he with? I have a website of a squadron that that particular plane flew with. I might be able to cross reference the other numbers with existing birds? Let me know.

I believe it was VP-7, although I'm not positive.  I know they were stationed in Greenland and Newfoundland for a time. It was around 1960 or so.

Thanks for the pics of the DC-4 Chopperfan.  I started the Minnicraft 1/144 DC-6 the other night. I got it at Hobby Lobby for $1.50 last summer.  Anybody build this kit?  It is more like a vacuform than a injected molded model.  Lots of filling and supporting.

Regards,

Scott