Model Shipways "Sultana" Group Build 2006

Dan,
seems like you and others are really making progress. I wish we could get some pics of everybodies progress.

Donnie

Shoot...I have a house closing tomorrow morning, and haven't even had time to do much more than look at the hull...you all are waaaaaaaay ahead of me.  Hopefully, starting tomorrow around ten, I'll be able to get back to modeling !  This work stuff sucks.

 

               greg  the builder

cthulhu77 wrote:

you all are waaaaaaaay ahead of me.

Greg, this is not so. There are only about I say an estimate of 1/2 of us that have cut the templates and starting carving.  There are days or evenings that I do not get to work as much as I wish that I could. As a matter of fact, sometimes I do like to take breaks becuase if I get in too much of a hurry, then I might mess something up. As a matter of fact, I have or am already reaching for the wood filler.

Relax, !!!!  Don't worry ! I know that I am not that far along.

Donnie

I am almost finished building the ship's boat.  Details on how it was stored on deck are scarce and I opted for the method in the photo.  The boat would have been clinker built but the small size made it difficult.  I chose to build it with a smooth hull.  It has been glued to the deck but can be easily removed.  I am not sure I like it.  Granted, there will be 4 oars and some coiled rope in the boat and it hasnt been lashed to the deck yet.  But what do you think?  All of you will eventually be faced with the same decision.  Should you build the yawl or not?  Hopefully seeing this picture in advance will help you.  For me,  I spent a week building it already.  I could really use a new impartial set of eyes looking at it. 

Please share your thoughts.

Chuck

Chuck:

I have two thoughts. First, if the boat is stored on deck, would not the rudder be unshipped and stored inside the boat? I doubt they would leave it shipped as it sat there on deck as it would be more liable to damage. Second, I am not sure I like storing it right over the hatch. Getting into the hatch means moving the boat. I have seen a pic on the box (or so I thought it was) where the boat was stored off to one side, starboard, I think. I do not know what to tell you about this aspect as I just have not seen much research on it for this particular vessel.

Russ

 

 

 

From what I have read,  They would have stored it over the hatches.  Because it normally would have been towed.  It would be lashed over the hatches on long journeys only.  I read that all of the ships stores would have been placed aboard and only afterwards the ship lashed atop the hatches.  There would be no reason to enter the hatch on the journey.  The rudder will be removed and placed in the boat as you mentioned.  It is a working rudder with gudgeons and pintles and can be lifted off easily. 

I guess my real question is does the model look ok with the jawl?  Or does it look to large and inconsistant with the rest of the build?  Does it add or detraract from the overall presentation?

Chuck

Chuck:

If you have some solid research that says they stored it over the hatch, then it should stay there. I had not seen any new literature on this particular vessel, so I was not sure. Good work.

Russ

 

 

 

Thanks,

But after some second thoughts and third, fourth thoughts.  I am going to remove the ships boat.  The rigging will not prevent me from lashing it above the hatches later.  I am also thinking about displaying the yawl towed behind the Sultana.  I am not sure if there will be enough room in the case so even at this stage there are many options.  I read that info from an older issue of the nrg magazine.  It sounds feasable but as you know so does every thing else you read in print.

Chuck

Chuck,
I do not have enough knowledge about the subject to give any adavice, but, I will say that the ship with the Yawl in the present position looks great to me.

When you talk about your display case, I am assuming that you will not have a diorama, but a basic pedestal for your ship and a separate pedestal for your yawl.

I can think of many variations as well with this approach.  Maybe a short 1"  x 3/8" brass pedestal to mount the ship and maybe a very small diameter 1/8" , but tall (like 4" tall) to mount the Yawl to.

Just an idea !

Donnie

Thanks Donnie,

No I wont be making a diorama.  I will probably place the yawl near the namplate.  I may also put it on a length og brass rod alonside the hull.  Today I will start building the masts.  The rigging should be interesting.  The plans in the newer kit are very different from the old one.  The replica in Maryland differs from both.  The 3 sets of plans I have for the Sultana are inconsistant as well.   I see no reason why I shouldnt just dive right in.

Chuck

Hi Chuck,

I've got to tell you that I look forward to every picture you post, the practicums and your willingness to share with us your experiences building the ship - thank you!  Nice modeling you're doing.

As for the ship's boat - I thing it looks fine. It will take on a smaller profile once the tiller is stored and, especially, when the masts are up.  The vertical height of the mast will have the affect of making the boat less obvious, I think.  In addition, the boat itself will add to the "eye candy" of the completed model and should, by itself, draw favorable comments from onlookers.  On the other hand, it is your creation and should please you - try it in different areas and place it where it most appeals to you.  Although not a historical fact for the Sultana (I don't know exactly what the Sultana did with this boat) most of the time the ship's boat was for transportation or rescue and as such would be placed in the most convenient area onboard for access without being in the way.  As sailors, or "swabs", needed access to the port and starboard sides of the ship, those areas were usually uncluttered.  If a boat was stored in that area, it was usually located above on racks.  When cargo was being off or on loaded, making the ship's boat the first item to be lifted off was just part of the process.  During the voyage there would be little reason to access those hatches therefore it would be the most practical solution as to where to place the boat unless hung by davits from the fan tail or the sides - not a good idea on a ship the size of the Sultana, for structual, sailing and balance reasons.  As I said, this is just general information not specific to the Sultana.

Personnaly, I like the boat where it is - it looks both good and "nautical" to my eyes.  There again, I wear glasses.

Back to mowing the lawn and thanks again for sharing with us.

 

Hi Donnie

Sorry I didn't reply to this earlier but I have been on the "disabled" list  for a couple of weeks.  I will definately be with the Group (but only once).  I have been having some problems navigating the site.  You have probably covered this before but how do I get the logo on the Signiture line and how do i get new posts sent directly to my mailbox.

A little help on this and I will jump in and join the group.

Rad

Chuck,

With respect to the yawl, I really think a well detailed boat adds a lot to the eye appeal of ships like Sultana.  I have to say that it is nice to be able to see how well the boat can look when it is worked up as you have done it.  Your latest photo has convinced me that my initial inclination to make the boat and put it on the deck is the way I would like to go.

Bruce

Rad,
can you send me your email address to Sultana1767@bellsouth.net and I can give you instructions on your request.
Thanks

Donnie

Chuck,

My vote is to leave the ship's boat where you have it. Harold Hahn's book 'The Colonial Schooner' shows the boat just where you have it in the illustration on p. 57.

You can see where the Sultana's 'sisters' carried their boats in the photos at:

http://resolutionslog.bravehost.com/index.html

The photo on the index page is of Charles Parson's excellent model of the Halifax. The photo on the gallery page is of his model of the Hannah. These are excellent references for details on the Sultana.

enjoy

Chuck,
My first reaction was that the ship's boat looked too large for the model size. However, I am sure it is properly to scale and after a while it began to grow on me. I'd prefer it where it is on the longitudinal axis than hanging over the size - just for aesthetic reasons, not historical ones. I vote to leave it on deck.

Folks,
I spent what time I had at the weekend checking all the components, bagging them up and identifying them on the blueprints, and dry running through the entire instruction book.

Tonight I hope to make the hull templates and a jig to screw to the deck to hold the hull keel-up in the vice for carving. Not sure if I'll actually get to carve tonight though. I'm taking this whole process nice and slow. :) I intend to enjoy the journey as much, if not more than, the end result.

I'll post any photos once I get going.
regards to all,

Everyone who commented, Thank You.  That is exactly the feedback I needed.  I finished fitting out the boat and placed it into position on deck.  It seems to be growing on me also.  The rudder has been removed and placed in the boat with two oars and some coiled rope.  I made four oars but that was overkill.   Here is what it looks like now.  I have some close- ups and build photos of the jolly boat but I wanted to show you how it looks in relation to the entire model so far.   Chapter 5 will be available soon and the photos will all be included.  I will lash the boat to some eyebolts on deck tomorrow.

Thanks again,  It was a big help.

Chuck

Very, very nice Chuck !
I know that you have put alot of effort into this for yourself to enjoy, but also to help others.

Donnie

I got my templates done and practised a little bit of carving by squaring off the drops between decks. Having never carved before in my life, it was an awkward learning curve but I think I am getting the hang of it. Strangely relaxing :)

Newbie question #1 (Sorry I am sure I will have a lot)
What's a good way to mark the hull centerline? I sort of guessed and got a reasonable line along the keel using a metal rule, but it looks like continuing the CL up the bow and stern is very tricky. Tips anyone please?

Thanks!

Fippy,

There may be some jigs available but I just establish it with a ruler and free hand the CL up the stem and stern post.  After its finished I hold the hull at many different angles and "eyeball" it.  Almost like checking to see if a 2x4 is warped.  I will keep making adjustments until I am satisfied.  I also got myself in the habbit of taking pictures.  It is sometimes amazing what is easier to see in a photograph.  If you have a digital camera take some shots at diferent angles and see what it looks like.

Chuck

I want to jump in on this one Fippy, since I just experienced this on my own. I am on my lunch break and I will get home and tell you what I did. For one thing I bought a CENTER LINE ruler. The ruler has "0" in the center and it is so nice as you do not have to measure and guess at the center. I will give you more details when I get home.

Donnie

I make jigs not so much that I enjoy doing so, but I do it becuase it helps me figure things out better. It is not for everyone, so ... and also, you can be welcome to copy any ideas that I come up with.  I am sure that this goes way beyond anyone that cares to get this involved in trying to find the "center" on anything. Actually, I am not being perfectionist about this. I am engineering minded so my heart follows with the gadgets and jigs to help me do things better. At any rate, I do not want to become long winded as there are people that have other ideas that would suffice them.

I made for lack of better description, a trellis as you see here to help facilitate many things. It has helped me so far in alot of measuring. The trellis are glued with regular Titebond - no nails. I used a machinst square to make sure they are square. The other stick across the top is a feabled attempt to make a "center" ruler before I actually found one in a store. I used this jig to help me find center across the whole keel.

As far as the deck or top of the ship, I used plain dividers as the photo describes in itself. 

Ok, now, I found that my hull out of the box was not centered. I found that the Keel Center Line was (ok at the stern keel but off about 3/32 or a little more at the bow of the keel). sorry about my lack of natical terms.  (forward Keel "off"    aft Keel "ok")
How did I find this out - I am trying to remember !
It seems that I had the ship in vise with deck up as I was looking down on the deck. I took the pair of dividers and I measured the "center" at 3 places.
The 3 places were the 3 deck steps. Aft Step, Midship Step and fore Step. Again, I plead forgiveness of my lack of nautique. I marked the Center Line with a mechanical pencil.

I then turned the ship over with the Keel facing upwards. It seems to me that I took some sanding paper wrapped around a 3/8" square stick and  I started to lightly sand along the whole keel until I started to notice a good visible "flatness" of the keel. I think I measured a 4mm width and maintained that while allowing for the sanding to find the "natural" center by sanding. This worked for me, but I did have that 3/32 offset at the bow. However, let me say that after I drew my line down the center of the Keel , I noticed that the Center Line of the Top of the Deck LINED up with the Center Line of the Keel.
So with that, I figured that by sanding the keel edge first, it sorta found its natural center. I am not sure if I am explaining myself here or not. Maybe I got lucky, who knows.
Let me say it this way. Straight out of the box, I measured the Center Line on the deck. I turned the Ship over, and did not measure anything, but started sanding the keel's edge. By sanding the Keel's edge, the center of the Keel became more prominate and exposed enough. Then I could mark and measure the center line of the Keel from aft to fore.

Ok, now that I have over explained alot of Goop here !













Donnie

Thanks Donnie! That does help a lot! I think I shall try exactly the same process: sand the keel edge and then use your trick with the dividers to help find the centreline. I'm not sure I need to make your jig, but I do like your jigs. I can see your engineering "bent". :)

I must admit I never thought of doing what your last photo shows - ensuring a rounded bow. That's probably a very smart move. I can see that by the time I have built the Sultana, however it turns out, I shall have an arsenal of techniques that can be applied to a lot of kits.

I'm hoping I can get some hull carving done before the weekend, when I go away for a week's vacation.

How is everyone else doing?

Just so you gents don't think that I have been leaving all the fun to you, I too have been shaving and sanding away.  I have not had too much time but I have the bullwarks off, the centre line marked, the bow shaped and likewise the stern.  Although it is shaped, I still have to take off what looks like about an eighth of an inch to get the overall hull length the correct size.  That will be task number one on the weekend and then hopefully I will get started in on the hull shaping.

Bruce

So I've spent some time carving now and as I moved toward the stern I had to carve more and more to get the dramatic s-curves. Here's where I discovered that I was beginning to make grooves. :(

Grooves

Here's what I am doing: I am carving horizontally along the hull with the blade indicated in the link below. I tried using a flat chisel which worked great amidships but as the curves got more dramatic I found the chisel bit "ate" into the wood at the edges. So I am cutting horizontally very carefully and then doing my best to smooth out the grooves but finding it very difficult. Hopefully you can see them on the photo above around station 6 and 7. Sandpaper evens them out to a certain extent.

Knife I am using

So I would appreciate advice: Is horizontal the way to carve? Vertically seemed to splinter the wood because of the grain. Am I using the right tool? Is there a skill to which I am not privy or am I expecting too much of my apprentice hull? :)

Thanks everyone! So far I'm excited about my new hobby.
oh, and how do I post pictures properly on this forum?

Well, I am back from my business trip (thank goodness) back to building again !

I do want to mention that I have rarely picked up an carving tool (which I thought that I was going to do), but actually have just used alot of sanding paper wrapped around either a 3/8" Square Stick or using a 1" dowel. Both have accomplished great results for me. I think I grabbed the carving tool once for a small cut or two, but the rest has been hand sanding. I am using a brand "Gator Grit" #100. It seems to cut thru rather quickly.

Donnie

Fippy - It's kind of hard to tell from the photo, but I think what may be happening is that you've tried to carve against the grain with a knife or chisel blade that isn't quite sharp enough.

Think of a wood board as a bundle of millions of tiny straws.  If you start your cut in the center of the top face of the board and slice downward toward one end, you're carving with the grain.  If you dig your blade into the end of the board and try to cut upward toward the center of it, you'r carving against the grain.  If you make a cut from one side of the board to another, you're carving across the grain.

Carving with the grain tends to compress the wood fibers (the "straws") against each other.  Since they're pretty stiff and resilient, that's not a problem - even if the blade isn't quite sharp.  Carving against the grain tends to pull the wood fibers apart from each other.  That seems to be what happened to your hull.  It can be done with a firm grasp on a sharp, high-quality blade.  But the softer the wood (and basswood is pretty daggone soft) and the duller the blade, the more likely that there will be trouble.

You might try a few practice cuts on a piece of scrap.  Notice that changing the direction of the cutting stroke by 90 or 180 degrees completely changes the nature of the cut.

Regarding tools - for this kind of work you really have two options.  One - buy a high-quality carver's knife (or two, or three) and learn how to sharpen it.  Two - buy an Xacto handle and a fair number of blades, and throw them out as soon as they get dull.  Frankly, I recommend option two.  I've spent quite a few years trying to teach myself to sharpen chisels, knives, and carving tools, using three stones (soft India, hard India, and hard Arkansas) and a leather strop.  I've gotten reasonably competent at it, but I still have trouble with curved blades like the one in your second photo.  (By the way, that's a good, useful blade shape for this kind of work.)  The woodworking supply companies (e.g., www.woodcraft.com) sell a bewildering variety of stones, jigs, strops, and electric gadgets for sharpening tools; you can easily spend twice as much on sharpening equipment than  you spent on the Sultana kit.  Xacto tools come from the factory with nice, sharp edges.  The quality of the steel isn't great; Xacto tools also dull quickly.  But they don't cost much.  Personally, I use Xacto blades most of the time and seldom if ever bother to sharpen them; I also routinely do some pretty brutal things to them that I wouldn't dream of doing to a high-quality tool.  If I were working on this project, I'd go the Xacto route.

Hope that helps a little.  Good luck.

Fippy,

I see and understand what you are doing. You ship does not look that bad. It looks like you are on track. I personally think that you should quickly and now, move on to like a #100 Grit sandpaper and start "shaping" things with it. You can use a very small block of wood that can be 1/2" by 1/2" square by 2" long or something simular.
I found that I used sanding paper #100 Grit for my entire project. I only reached for the knife on like two occasions - and that occasion was shaping the transome like what you are doing.
If this makes you feel any better, I had to put a tad of wood filler in some places and reshape. Things still turned out well. I will post some pics in a while on my progress.

Donnie

Thanks guys for that encouragement! As you can hopefully see from my blurry photo, I am using an xacto knife and it's a brand new blade. I totally agree that buying blades is a better solution than sharpening.

I shall switch to sandpaper for a while and see how that goes. I was having problems getting the tight curves with a square block. I never thought of wrapping the sandpaper around a dowel. You're full of good ideas, Donnie! I have been "finishing" using sandpaper so I probably need to start with a coarser grit. I'll go buy #100.

I'd love to see photos of anyone else in the hull-carving stage. I'm leaving on Sunday for a week, so happy modelling!

Well, this is as far as I have gotten. For those that notice, no, at this time, I do not have provisions for my upper planking-on-hull "yet". I want to be fully satisfied of how the templates work as per out-of-the-box. When I am happy with the hull shaping, then I can turn my full attention to how I want to complete the sanding process to "allow" for the upper planking above the wales.  I still have some areas on the overall hull that still need some shaping. I am looking for the correct hull-keel- to the top-of-deck relationship to be correct.
At this point, I am entertaining the thought of using 1/64 basswood to do the upper planking. I have some 1/64 and 1/32 birch that I will look into for the deck. It is interesting as I mentioned in an earlier post that the birch color looks so close to the actual deck color that I am after.



The discoloration that you see (one is gray and the other is dark patching), is a grey primer and woodfiller. I know that the woodfiller is not the same color, but this was replaced by a trip to the lowes to get a matched filler. The gray areas that you see is a simple deal of painting the tramsom gray so that I can actually see how smooth the transom will look and the second reason, I wanted to remark with a pencil a nice clean scribes to see where I am with the sanding process. By painting this area gray and letting it dry, I was able to see imperfections in my work. No problem about the primer as it sanded away anyway while I was removing those rough areas. The primer really helps in advertsising those areas that are lackluster in shaping.











Donnie