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5. SS Div Wiking question

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  • Member since
    October, 2009
5. SS Div Wiking question
Posted by Kentucky Colonel on Monday, March 20, 2017 4:56 PM

Did the 5 SS Paz Div Wiking ever have any Ausf A late Panthers in the Easter Front in the winter of 1944-1945??

I thought I remembered reading somewhere that they did but a friend says they didn't and the Panthers of that Div at that time were "G" not "A" but he's not ever sure.

Been thinking of doing one sometime down the road but didn't want to build the wrong with the wrong markings so I'm asking you guys.

Thanks for any help!!

  • Member since
    December, 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Monday, March 20, 2017 5:16 PM

Its certainly possable that some Ausf A's survived late into 1944 and even 45. But most of the pics i can find are clearly in spring/sumer and those that look to be autumn/winter don't say when in the year so could be early in 44. Even if they did, you would need to get a pic of one to be sure you have the right markings.

But, the Div lost all its armour in the Korsun salient. It fought for some time as a battlegroup but was then pulled back to Poland and re-built. This was during the summer of 1944 and new tanks would most likey have been Ausf G's.

According to Nafziger's OOB in April 44, afer they were pulled out, they did have one tank regiment fully equipped with Panthers. These must have been given to the Div after came out of the pocket in Feb. These could have been A's from other units or new G's.

''I am a Norfolk man, and i glory in being so''

  

On the bench: Trumpeter 1/35th AS90   

  • Member since
    October, 2009
Posted by Kentucky Colonel on Monday, March 20, 2017 5:27 PM

Thanks, that's what my friend said about replacing them with G's.

 

Crap. I have a A and some great Archer Fine Transfers for the A that I planed to use but will use a different setting for the Panther. Maybe I could make it early 44 and get away with it.

The problems a modler has to go though just to build a model......

  • Member since
    September, 2013
Posted by blackdog62 on Monday, March 20, 2017 6:36 PM

The only panther kit I have is a dragon in 1/35 and it's the American model so I'm always looking for them. I came across a pic of one fighting in the streets of Berlin it mentioned the Hitler Plaza was in the background not sure if that ss fought in berlin? 

Lol that's for sure I spend more time researching than building.

  • Member since
    September, 2013
Posted by blackdog62 on Monday, March 20, 2017 7:01 PM

Eastern front was so brutall I read a lot of first hand accounts and the Korsun pocket was really horrible place to be. 

Some of the most brutal story's come out of those pockets. The Russians would just pound them with artillery mersally.

The Germans normally didn't get out of those pockets with there equipment it sounds like every thing was smashed. Especially later in the war.

  • Member since
    December, 2007
  • From: Eagle River, WI
Posted by PANZERJAGER on Monday, March 20, 2017 7:33 PM

Unless I'm building a paper panzer, I typically don't build anything without a photograph of two to prove authenticity.

Just my2 cents, but a good practice...

 

  • Member since
    June, 2006
Posted by Tankluver on Monday, March 20, 2017 10:01 PM

I want to say that the Panthers that relieved Kowel were model G and even some D variants

  • Member since
    December, 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Tuesday, March 21, 2017 12:55 AM

blackdog62

The only panther kit I have is a dragon in 1/35 and it's the American model so I'm always looking for them. I came across a pic of one fighting in the streets of Berlin it mentioned the Hitler Plaza was in the background not sure if that ss fought in berlin? 

Lol that's for sure I spend more time researching than building.

 

When you say American model, do you mean the ersatz. If so, these were G's.

Wiking wasn't in Berlin, it finished the war in Austria. It was the Nordland Div that fought in the capital.

''I am a Norfolk man, and i glory in being so''

  

On the bench: Trumpeter 1/35th AS90   

  • Member since
    September, 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Tuesday, March 21, 2017 7:02 AM

5th SS Panzer Division Wiking served in Poland to help put down the Warsaw Uprising in July, 1944. From there, it served in Budapest in January, 1945, escaping to Austria. The Division surrendered there.  And, I did find one photo ostensibly labelled "Wiking Panther A, Fall 1944-Winter 1945."  It was a B&W photo with the tank apparently in a coat of dark yellow.  However, the glacis plate  and the early cupola showed that the tank really was an Ausf. D.

However, it is entirely possible that there were "A's" in Wiking at the time.  Indeed, given the chaotic nature of the war at that point, I have even seen "D's" in service on the different fronts in late 1944-1945.  I wouldn't rule it out.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    September, 2013
Posted by blackdog62 on Tuesday, March 21, 2017 7:18 AM

Oops I didn't catch that. spell check threw that in its supposed to say it's a panther A model.

  • Member since
    December, 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Tuesday, March 21, 2017 7:26 AM

blackdog62

Oops I didn't catch that. spell check threw that in its supposed to say it's a panther A model.

 

I should have realised that really.

There were definetly earlier models of tanks still in use at the very end. There is a well known Tiger I which is i think an early production being used in Berlin in 1945. Many of these had been relegated to training units after being sent back to Germany for major overhaul.  But of course, if a units vehilce was not badly damaged, there would be no reason to replace it just for some small improvments especially with things so dire as they were in late 44 and into 45.

The problem is, if you want to do it accuratly, you need a photo of a vehicle in a certain place at a certain time to be sure.

With a unit like the Wiking which is was so badly mauled they needed to be re-equipped from scratch, it is possable that some of those vehicles could have come from units being withdrawn for a complete re-fit, and so they could still have had earlier vehicles even after there own had been destroyed.

''I am a Norfolk man, and i glory in being so''

  

On the bench: Trumpeter 1/35th AS90   

  • Member since
    October, 2009
Posted by Kentucky Colonel on Tuesday, March 21, 2017 7:39 AM

Here's what I had hoped to do. The Archer Fine Transfer is for Panther Ausf A 5 of 5 SS Wiking. It says  522. Dark Yelow with mottled winter camo Hungery , 1945.

 

I've been trying to track that down because I really wanted to use that transfer and do some mottled winter camo on the Panther.

  • Member since
    December, 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Tuesday, March 21, 2017 7:57 AM

That will help. I can't do much at the moment as i am at work and restricted to what sites i can go on, but will have a look tonight.

They would have had an Ausf A number 522 in late 43 early 44. So just finding a photo of that type with that number wouyld not be evidance unless itcan be confirmed in in Hungary.

''I am a Norfolk man, and i glory in being so''

  

On the bench: Trumpeter 1/35th AS90   

  • Member since
    December, 2012
Posted by Ixion on Tuesday, March 21, 2017 11:01 AM

I believe this to be the vehicle in question, however no date or identifying info for the photo is given;

I'm fairly certain I have seen this photo with a Bundesarchiv stamp at the bottom, but a quick search of the Bundesarchiv database did not produce this image. Another shot of 522, identified as belonging to Wiking, can be found on page 61 of Squadron's SS Armor.

 

  • Member since
    October, 2009
Posted by Kentucky Colonel on Tuesday, March 21, 2017 1:33 PM

Thanks. I found 2 pictures of 521 in snow camo like the one you posted with snow on the ground and it said they were taken outside Budapest in early 1945.

 

That picture is good enough for me as long as an Panther "A" will work. I'm just building it for me and not a museum.

Does anybody think that besides the snow camo on that tank some of it is a little dark to be "dark yellow"? Makes me wonder if is is a 3 color camo under the snow camo.

 

Thanks again!!

  • Member since
    September, 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Tuesday, March 21, 2017 1:41 PM

I would guess that it is a variant of the three-color scheme under the winter whitewash.  I would further guess that any color under the whitewash would have been very sloppy as German forces had very little time for the niceties of a professional finish.

Bill

  • Member since
    June, 2006
Posted by Tankluver on Tuesday, March 21, 2017 1:48 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Icq4mwVu744 

heres some film from the battle of Kowel, It should be the panther unit that was refitting in Germany. anyways hope this helps

  • Member since
    April, 2006
  • From: ON, Canada
Posted by jgeratic on Wednesday, March 22, 2017 2:10 AM

I know it's not nice to direct members to other forums, but when it comes to historical accuracy questions, you can almost always bet it has been discussed at length at some point over at missing-lynx.

I've looked at few search results there, seems to be the opinion Wiking never did get any Panther G's, and was at the receiving end of the last production batch of the A's.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/search?searchterm=Kovel+wiking&sort=match

regards,

Jack

  • Member since
    September, 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Wednesday, March 22, 2017 5:51 AM

However, I have seen several photos purported to be Wiking Panther G's dated Winter, 1945.  I simply did a search for 5 SS Panzer Division Panther Tanks 1944-1945.  Hundreds of photos come up, all labelled Wiking, Eastern Front,Winter 1944-1945.  Many of these are clearly G's.  The rest seem to be A's, but they are not clear.

Bill

 

  • Member since
    December, 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Wednesday, March 22, 2017 7:34 AM

jgeratic

I know it's not nice to direct members to other forums, but when it comes to historical accuracy questions, you can almost always bet it has been discussed at length at some point over at missing-lynx.

I've looked at few search results there, seems to be the opinion Wiking never did get any Panther G's, and was at the receiving end of the last production batch of the A's.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/search?searchterm=Kovel+wiking&sort=match

regards,

Jack

 

Interesting. The G was introduced in, off the top of my head, April/May, so its certainlypossable Wiking was fully re-equipped with the last A's. But to go through the rest of the war without getting any new tanks, i find that strange.

Will have to check out that link tonight.

''I am a Norfolk man, and i glory in being so''

  

On the bench: Trumpeter 1/35th AS90   

  • Member since
    October, 2009
Posted by Kentucky Colonel on Wednesday, March 22, 2017 8:51 AM

Thanks guys!!!

I knew I came to the right place for that question.

Never done a build log but might for this tank but it will be a few months before I can ever start.

  • Member since
    April, 2006
  • From: ON, Canada
Posted by jgeratic on Wednesday, March 22, 2017 10:42 AM

There is also this site dedicated to the Panther tank, and looking through the unit History, there does not look to be any additional Panthers sent to Wiking after March/April 1944.

http://www.panther1944.de/index.php/en/sdkfz-171-pzkpfwg-panther/truppenteile/kurzchroniken-der-panthertruppenteile/173-ss-pzrgt-5?showall=&start=2

Also listing of Panther production and allocations:

http://www.panther1944.de/index.php/en/sdkfz-171-pzkpfwg-panther/truppenteile/panther-zuweisungslisten/panther-zuweisungsliste-1944

Unfortunately neither of those links specify Panther types, and you have to awkwardly cross reference with the site's listing of known chassis numbers - Fahrgestellnummern:

http://www.panther1944.de/index.php/en/sdkfz-171-pzkpfwg-panther/truppenteile/zuordenbare-fahrgestellnummern/produktionsjahr-44

regards,

Jack

 

  • Member since
    December, 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Wednesday, March 22, 2017 11:08 AM

Nice links Jack. I have seen the Panther site before but not that page. It clearly shows Wikings got no new Panthers after mid April, those would have been A's.

I am amazed they went a whole year without replacements.

''I am a Norfolk man, and i glory in being so''

  

On the bench: Trumpeter 1/35th AS90   

  • Member since
    September, 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Wednesday, March 22, 2017 5:24 PM

Also, page 61 of the book Squadron book SS Armor states that Wiking was replenished with at least 8 companies of Panther Ausf As at Kovel, Poland after escaping from Korsun.  There are several photos of several of these As.  At this time, Wiking was reported to be authorized 75 Panthers with a strength of 77. All were Ausf. As.  From that point on their Panther strength gradually wore away to zero by April 1, 1945.  They do not appear to have been refurbished with Panther Ausf. Gs.

Bill

  • Member since
    April, 2006
  • From: ON, Canada
Posted by jgeratic on Wednesday, March 22, 2017 11:24 PM

There is Echelon's decal set for some possible ideas for the camou underneath the whitewash.   The left side are representative of some of Wiking's Panthers:

regards,

Jack

  • Member since
    September, 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Thursday, March 23, 2017 5:43 AM

It is interesting that Echelon printed the full swastika used by Wiking on the cover but not on the decal sheet.

Bill

  • Member since
    October, 2009
Posted by Kentucky Colonel on Thursday, March 23, 2017 7:47 AM

But they do. There are 7 of them on the sheet.

If that is the camo on 522 then I'll pick another tank. Going to order an Echelon this week. Thanks for the info.

  • Member since
    September, 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Thursday, March 23, 2017 8:13 AM

I see 7 black shields with the curves of the swastika only.  The cross parts that connect them are seperate decals.  It does look like an interesting set, though, and I will order one.

Bill

  • Member since
    October, 2009
Posted by Kentucky Colonel on Thursday, March 23, 2017 8:54 AM

I went back to the picture of the 522 tank that was posted the other day and copied it on my PC. I enlarged it and ever though it is burry I cannot make out any of the "crisscross camo" that Echelon has on their picture of 522. Think it will be ok to just add a little red and green camo then do the winter camo over it?

  • Member since
    December, 2012
Posted by Ixion on Thursday, March 23, 2017 9:08 AM

Colorized...., but same company and a clear view of this pattern;

Obviously summer, so earlier time period, but looks more like previous photo than stripped pattern does. Identified as "Nurzec-Stacja, Poland, July 22, 1944".

Another shot;

 534 really got around, or at least was photographed a lot.

There are however, plenty of shots of Wiking Panthers in stripped camo, this appears to be 6th company;

Hard to corroborate without time stamps or other info on photos.

 For a mere $200;

 

 

 

 

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