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The Real Ral 7018 Dunkelgelb direct from the manufacturers!

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  • Member since
    November 2004
The Real Ral 7018 Dunkelgelb direct from the manufacturers!
Posted by snapdragonxxx on Wednesday, July 5, 2017 10:51 AM

For German AFV modellers RAL 7028 is sort of like a holy grail with everybody including paint manufacturers having their own ideas on what the colour(s) were.

RAL 7028 and other RAL colours were dropped from the RAL catalogue after the war during the "De-Nazifying" process. and so much information was destroyed not only by the Allies but the Germans themselves that I doubt we will never know exactly what the Germans were up to during the war.

However, with a bit of travel, research and tenacity I have tracked down the real colours.

Let's follow the timeline.

February 1943 the Germans changed the base coat of their vehicles and equipment from the Panzer Grey.... a very very dark grey to a new colour designated RAL7028 Dunkelgelb Nach Muster. The HM paint orders said that new vehicles of the production line were to be in this colour while existing vehicles were to be either repainted in the field or a disruptive pattern painted over the top of the already painted Ppanzergrau (RAL 7021) combined with Dunkelgrun RAL 6003 and RAL 8017 Schokoladenbraun.

This shade - RAL 7028 Dunkelgelb Nach Muster (Dark yellow after pattern or sample) was not in the RAL catalogue and HM applied for it to be registered. What actually went into the catalogue was a completely different shade or you could call it colour. The Germans had been testing camouflage colours since the middle of 1942 and Dunkelgelb Nach Muster was only used until the end of Operation Citadel - or the Battle of Kursk which finished in August 1943. the base coat of vehicles and equipment became the colour that was officially in the RAL catalogue.... in other words, the second incarnation of Dunkelgelb. This incarnation continued into late spring of 1944 and was changed again with the change being recorded in the RAL catalogue. In Late November/Early December the colour changed again to a 4th shade and remained until the end of the war in 1945.

The colours I am showing here have cost me quite a bit of money because they come direct in 1ltr tins of paint direct from the original company that supplied the paints to the German military during the war. They are still doing so today! I tracked them down after coming across some letters in the Frieberg Federal Archive. one letter was from the OKW (German High Command) congratulating the company on maintaining the colour specification with a batch variance of +/- 3% from chipset values despite materiel shortages. Further research showed me that this company was still going and I gained access to their most impressive archive. They have chipset patterns and chipset/samples from every batch of colour they produced and after some buttering up they were more than happy to produce for me samples of each chipset colour which arrived a few days ago. They were formulated for me in Acrylic Enamel to military grade and airbrush ready ( they work great through my 0.4mm Nozzle!) and to the original CMYK formulae and then matched on their specialist equipment to make sure that the match was correct.

Here they are!

Dunkelgelb Nach Muster Feb-Aug 1943

 

RAL 7028 August 1943- April 1944

RAL 7028 April/May 1944 - November/December 1944

RAL 7028 December 1944 - May 1945

Timeline left to right

 

I am not saying other colours were not used but without official archive documentation and chipset plus painting orders they are suspect colours. Indeed, the batch samples I saw varied little from the above colours and certainly not the very light and pale almost butter colour that AK and others have in their ranges. I would like to see the documentation and chipset on those!

 

Let the shock, indignation, armchair know-it alls start throwing the artillery, but I have been to the archives and the company and seen it with my own eyes. and these samples will shortly be winging their way to a modelling paint company in the hope that they will decide to put these in their paint line(s).

James

  • Member since
    March 2003
  • From: Western North Carolina
Posted by Tojo72 on Wednesday, July 5, 2017 10:55 AM
Interesting,the 1st sample looks a lot like Tamiya XF-60

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Wednesday, July 5, 2017 4:56 PM

Yes Tojo, which leads to the next task- matching.

 

That's pretty awesome, Snapz. I'd love to hear more about the whole process.

  • Member since
    May 2009
  • From: Poland
Posted by Pawel on Wednesday, July 5, 2017 5:09 PM

Yeah, really very interesting - that would explain why people compare preserved exhibits and can't agree on the shade of the colour - because there were different colours in use! At the same time it gives the modellers some "artistic licence" in cases where the details (like the exact date to be represented by the model) are unknown.

Thanks for sharing and haev a nice day

Paweł

All comments and critique welcomed. Thanks for your honest opinions!

www.vietnam.net.pl

  • Member since
    November 2004
Posted by snapdragonxxx on Wednesday, July 5, 2017 5:56 PM

If you have a panzer or softskin build between the dates above then the base coat would be that colour. The exception would be the last shade where the base coat was RAL 6003 Dunkelgrun from December 1944 although there is evidence that RAL 6003 was used as a base coat from October/November 1944. These might be field trials though.

Documentation and batch shades show that there was a +/- 3% variance (lighter/darker) than the original chipset. This does give modellers a variance option, but it helps to have the original correct chipset shades to work with.

The whole process is going into archives and sifting through a whole lot of paperwork and documentation. The rules are that you can't remove or copy anything, but you can make your own notes. Finding the golden nuggets is usually either intensive searches or pure chance and having a good friend willing to sit and translate for you.

I'm a retired Army officer and so don't give up on things easy. Finding the letter of congratulations was really a lucky chance as I was looking for something else but it gave me the chance to nail this down, especially when a search came up with the fact that the company who originally made the paint was still operating. being able to veryfy the archive documentation chipsets with an outside source is something not easily done as so much was destroyed or hidden away and forgotten about. 

Fortune favours the bold and after my friend spoke to a director of the company who was interested about my interest in this particular colour that they invited us to their works and to their archives. They had duplicate chipset books with all the changes and notes plus their own batch sample testing colours and notes. This information matched the archives  and they agreed to mix 1ltr sample tin of each RAL 7028 chipset colour and and test with their specialist equipment to make sure it was an exact match with the chipset.

This did cost me money....... but worth it!

  • Member since
    December 2012
Posted by Ixion on Wednesday, July 5, 2017 9:53 PM

What a truly remarkable research effort. You have persevered and succeeded where few have even thought possible. All the different preserved relics with all their different shades of RAL 7028 now make sense. The colors shown are pefect examples of those we have all seen on preserved pieces, but could never quite adequately explain. Questions about weathering, fading, method of application, color shift of color photos and slides, etc., suddenly fall away, now that we know there were 4 official colors. This is a giant step forward, not only for our modeling knowledge, but for our understanding of history as well. Well done Sir! Beer

  • Member since
    January 2015
  • From: Tumwater, WA.
Posted by M. Brindos on Wednesday, July 5, 2017 11:01 PM

Holy cow! This is truly a magnificent gift to our community! Thank you ever so much for this!!!

I see Dark Yellow, Earth Brown, Red Brown, and a kind of light Olive Drab. This makes me see things so differently concerning German armor. Oh boh, oh boy, oh boy! :D

The artist in me is giddy as a child lol! Thank you!

- Mike Brindos

Figure Painting Moderator -- Genessis-Models

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sunny So. Cal... The OC
Posted by stikpusher on Thursday, July 6, 2017 12:21 AM

Great stuff! Quite interesting indeed! I know the new Mission Models paint line covers at least two of these shades. And I am pretty sure another one matches up to a Humbrol shade. Seems like this color has as much variety out of the can as Olive Drab... and in a shorter timespan. 

Thanks for this!

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    November 2004
Posted by snapdragonxxx on Thursday, July 6, 2017 5:57 AM

Thanks for all your kind comments. I am hoping that the guys at Vallejo will pick this up and offer this colours as a complete set. I am about to send these painted samples to them. I know that if Vallejo take these on board then the colours will reman correct to the chipset and not be "scale corrected" which is a lot of tosh if you know exactly how our eyes and brain work together and bring these authentic colours to the scale modelling world.

If they are taken onboard, then modellers by using these colours can use the +/- 3% hue/shade variance themselves and then fade and weather to their own whims knowing that they are using the 100% correct colours to begin with.

 

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Thursday, July 6, 2017 6:35 AM

This is incredible!  Thanks for the research effort.  Let's hope that the model paint companies take heed.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Thursday, July 6, 2017 6:43 AM

I like your dedication snap. They would go along way to explaining the account i have read of a 251/9 being stripped prior to restoration and them finding 7 differant shades of DY.

Thank you for bringing this to our attention.

I don't suppose you plan on sending the details of your find to any of the enamel paint companies such as Xtracolor or Colourcoats.

''I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so''

On the bench: Aifix 1/72nd Gladiator Mk II & Mosquito Mk VI.

  • Member since
    November 2008
  • From: Central Florida
Posted by plasticjunkie on Thursday, July 6, 2017 7:41 AM

First off, thanks for taking the time and effort to do the research and post your findings here. I have bookmarked this thread for future armor paint reference.

 GIFMaker.org_jy_Ayj_O

 

 

Too many models to build, not enough time in a lifetime!!

  • Member since
    June 2014
  • From: New Braunfels , Texas
Posted by Tanker - Builder on Thursday, July 6, 2017 7:58 AM

Snap ;

 Thank you sir ! This will enable me to continue with building up my Bandai 1/48 German armor in the stash . I build these to remember a good friend and the fellow who left me his stash of these . Good Job and again Thank You !  T.B.

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Thursday, July 6, 2017 7:59 AM

That is very interesting, thanks for doing the research and sharing with us. 

 

You know it would be cool if you could work out a deal with the paint company and buy it by the large paint can and repackage it for modelers. Then advertise it as 'Made by the same paint company that made the real thing!!!

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    September 2016
  • From: Albany, New York
Posted by ManCityFan on Thursday, July 6, 2017 8:11 AM

"Let the shock, indignation, armchair know-it alls start throwing the artillery, but I have been to the archives and the company and seen it with my own eyes. and these samples will shortly be winging their way to a modelling paint company in the hope that they will decide to put these in their paint line(s)."

 

First off, thank you for your time, effort, and financial layout in this project.  Being fairly new to model building, I was a little shocked and bewildered when trying to find accurate colors for WWII models.  This is truly a remarkable feat.  I am sure there will continue to be some who will continue to argue, as you state above, but in my mind, this is definitive.

The change in hue throughout the years is somewhat shocking, but as mentioned above, explains a lot.  I can't imagine Vallejo or Mission Models would not grab this with both hands.  Think about how many of us just on this forum who will immediately order a set!

Well done, sir.

D

 

 

 

Dwayne or Dman or just D.  All comments are welcome on my builds. 

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Friday, July 7, 2017 12:52 AM

I got the Amusing Hobby Jagdpanther II kit ys=esterday. The paint gude lists MiG Ammo colours and ove rthe 4 scheme options it has 3 differant shades of Dark Yellow. How close they will be to the real thing i can't say as i have never used MiG paints, but it looks like at lkeast one paint company is on to the idea of more than one colour for DY.

''I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so''

On the bench: Aifix 1/72nd Gladiator Mk II & Mosquito Mk VI.

  • Member since
    November 2004
Posted by snapdragonxxx on Friday, July 7, 2017 8:16 AM

Hi Bish.You will enjoy the Amusing Hobby Jagdpanther II.. I did......

I would advise you to use the Friul tracks to avoid brain melting and therer are 128mm or 88mm barrels available here:

http://www.mrmodellbau.com/_shop/product_info.php?products_id=857

http://www.mrmodellbau.com/_shop/product_info.php?products_id=850

Here are pictures of MIG RAL 7028 paints along with the original chipset samples spoons!

Be Warned about MIG and AK. They subscribe to the "Scale Correction" crowd and so none of their paint range is accurate. While I do have some of each brand in my build room the only paints I use are the AK Xtreme Metal brand which are the best on the market with Vallejo's Metal Color being next.

IN the next two photos the original chipset are the top ones, and the lower ones are MIG from left to right:

RAL 7028 Dunkelgelb (MW) (010)

RAL 7028 Dunkelgelb aus '44 DGI (011)

RAL 7028 Dunkelgelb '44 DGIII (012)

Clearly the only MIG one close is the first one which is supposedly Dunkelgelb Nach Muster and is clearly a lighter "Scale correct" version. the other two as far as I am concerned are pure fantasy and have no basis. I have not seen anything resembling those colours in the official chipset.

I do not have Mission models (very expensive) and only one AK "DGIII" in my paintbox and so cannot give them a fair trial, so to speak.

I must admit I do like the Amusing Hobby kits and am looking forwards to getting my hands on their new E-100 series.

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Friday, July 7, 2017 10:05 AM

Nice job on that snap. I have seen the metal barrels, but to be honest i think the one piece plastic one looks ok. I learnt some time ago to wait until i get a kit before i get any AM, and with the 3 Amusing kits i have so far, other then basic tool clamps, i am not adding anything to them.

I like the look of the E-100 Flak, noit sure about the tank as i have the old Dragon kit, but the AH one looks differant from both the Dragon and Trump kits, i may just grab it so to have both versions of the 100.

Thanks for the heads up on those paint. I don't use those anyway, i prefer to stick to enamels, mainly Xtracolor but also colourcoats. Its just nice to see that other are looking at the idea of more than one version of DY, even if its not 100% correct. This is the first i have heard of it and just thought it was meant to be one colour and any variation might be caused by weather or differant production plants mixing their paints slightly differant.

I am with you on the scale correction topic, not somthing we seem to hear much about these days.

''I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so''

On the bench: Aifix 1/72nd Gladiator Mk II & Mosquito Mk VI.

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sunny So. Cal... The OC
Posted by stikpusher on Friday, July 7, 2017 10:35 AM

Bish

I got the Amusing Hobby Jagdpanther II kit ys=esterday. The paint gude lists MiG Ammo colours and ove rthe 4 scheme options it has 3 differant shades of Dark Yellow. How close they will be to the real thing i can't say as i have never used MiG paints, but it looks like at lkeast one paint company is on to the idea of more than one colour for DY.

 

Gunze had two shades of Dark Yellow in their Aqueous line. I don't know about if they continued that in their Mr Color line.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    January 2006
  • From: California
Posted by SprueOne on Friday, July 7, 2017 9:36 PM

Just sayin, lots of thorough information in this thread. Color swatches on plastic spoons is much better to see actual color.

 

 

 

Anyone with a good car don't need to be justified - Hazel Motes

 

Iron Rails 2015 by Wayne Cassell Weekend Madness sprueone

  • Member since
    April 2005
  • From: Gothenburg
Posted by JohanT on Saturday, July 8, 2017 1:11 PM

Hi,
This is XLNT!
Somone said earlier in this thread that between us we have been arguing this for ages and the discussion has been heated at times.

So thank you for your extensive effort!

Very Best Regards
Johan

  • Member since
    May 2019
Posted by King Jewsh on Wednesday, May 22, 2019 9:26 PM

The photos you posted are showing up as "Photo not found." Would you be able to reupload or post a new link to them? Thanks!

  • Member since
    November 2004
Posted by snapdragonxxx on Sunday, May 26, 2019 9:48 AM

 

 

 

 

In order of usage. These are the original chipset colours from an original manufacturer but done with modern acrylic paint and matched to the originals 100%. You do have a 3% +/- each way light/dark to play with but quite often natural light will do that for you.

  • Member since
    April 2006
  • From: ON, Canada
Posted by jgeratic on Sunday, May 26, 2019 1:24 PM

I only see the recent photos linked (due to the photo bucket fiasco), but those Dunkelgelb samples reminds me a lot of the colour chips published in the Tomas Chory book - printed 2000, 2005, and 2016.  Same order in appearance (but he has five examples), so it's interesting how similar the results are.

regards,

Jack

  • Member since
    November 2004
Posted by snapdragonxxx on Sunday, May 26, 2019 7:00 PM

These are samples of modern acrylic paint matched to the original chipset. I have seen Thomas Chory's book and there are only actually 3 RAL 7028 variants as the first one, Dunkelgelb Nach Muster IS NOT RAL 7028.

The first one came into use on new vehicles in February 1943 and was only used until the end of Operation Citadel, the battle of Kursk. It was never entered into the RAL Register and the colour was changed after feedback from frontline troops, but the name wasn't changed.

Dunkelgelb Nach Muster translates into Dark Yellow after Pattern/sample.

The first actual Colour that was registered as RAL 7028 was the second colour above. It was changed to the brown that is very similar to the Afrika Korps RAL 8000 and to the final shade which was given a field trial by Tiger II tanks with a RAL 6003 Olive green base coat taking part in Operation Panzerfaust in Budapest.

You can clearly see that in the photo above, the running gear is not painted in RAL 7028, but the much darker RAL 6003 and on the hull itself you can see that the lighter colour, which is RAL 7028 is clearly darker than the previous incarnations.

These colours were put to use on new vehicles from Christmas 1944 and officially sanctioned in January 1945.

As an owner of original vehicles I do spend lots of time in archives and also with companies that provide me with support and also equipment etc to keep these vehicles in an operational state. Getting the paint right is just one part of it and being able to work with a company that did make the original paint and will still do it for me (to modern standards) is a real boon.

Using the original colours on my currently operating vehicles I was able, last year to hine a Jagdpanther with it's long barreled 88 in a hedge at a re-enactment weekend and with extra camouflage such as a net, bushes tree branches etc may visitors actually walked past the vehicle not realising it was there untill we started it up and crashed through onto the battle area, coming to a stop and then firing the 88mm with a blank and setting off all the car alarms within a mile!

What you have to consider, when you are painting german armour is that the colours used from the change from dark grey are mimetic and the shade will change with the change in light and also the hue will change depending on the base colour. Also our own eyes and subconcious will change the colour too depending on background and distance to try and increase detail.

This picture is my 1/16 Trumpeter Jagdtiger painted in the colours above.

The same photo with a black and white period filter applied to that.

Urban background

The dunkelgelb looks a little different as the camera firmware is doing what our eyes and subconcious brain does to try and make out detail and definition. There is still the greenish tinge but it looks more of a dark beige and not as the colour suggests, Dark Yellow!

Here is my complete set

At a pinch, Vallejo's Afrika Korps Model Air paints will be fine as a RAL 7028 replacement as they are quite close and once mixed with the Green and chocolate brown and there is evidence to support vehicles beint pained with those base shades and used on the western and eastern front.

AK's real colours are not real! check out my post on that.

  • Member since
    May 2017
Posted by Roald on Wednesday, May 29, 2019 9:38 AM

Snapdragon,

Well done, sir. As an historian and lawyer there is nothing I appreciate more than good research. Knowing what to look for and how to find it is an art, and one that you’ve obviously mastered. Very cool stuff!

Secondly, Tamiya XF-88 (Dark Yellow 2) appears to be a very close match to figures 1 and 4, assuming that my phone is correctly displaying the colors. 

 

  • Member since
    November 2004
Posted by snapdragonxxx on Wednesday, May 29, 2019 12:01 PM

Colour display on phones etc is always the issue with online arguments on forums.

I have sent chipsets to Vallejo and they are meant to be working on a set but when we will see it I have no idea!

in the meantime as a stopgap I use either the modern stuff, but it is really formulated for my big spray guns in the paint shop and doesn't like airbrushed very well or Vallejo's Afrika Korps colours that are the closest to the above and Vallejo's own RAL 7028 which is so close to the DNM colour you can only tell in very bright natural light the difference.

Tamiya and my airbrush don't like each other and if I do use those paints it is only for paintbrush use!

  • Member since
    June 2019
Posted by geoff114 on Wednesday, June 5, 2019 10:45 AM

Many thanks for your awesome work! Tracking down the original paint manufacturer is one hell of a job. This will finally settle the issue on dunkelgelb paint. The story behind your research is fantastic and you should probably write an article on it. Modellers and historians alike will love it!

Regarding the paint colors, the first one strongly resembles Tamiya XF-88 as the others have pointed out. The second one is almost the same with the current paint used by the IDF. The third one is surprising as it looks more like a shade of copper or bronze. The fourth one is very similar to Vallejo's Dunkelgelb which has a shade of green.

  • Member since
    August 2019
  • From: Northern Nevada
Posted by HighDesertmodeler on Tuesday, August 27, 2019 2:17 PM
Thank you for the tip...Vallejo Model Air ral 7027 is a pretty good match for the first registered ral 7028 Dunkelgelb. I’ve confirmed this through coating a few spare King Tiger fender sections and Jagd IV shurtzen.
  • Member since
    August 2019
  • From: Brisbane Australia
Posted by Josh_the_painter on Saturday, September 21, 2019 6:47 AM

 Fascinating! So for curiosity sake how long has RAL existed?

Josh

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