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M60A1 RISE Passive vs M60A3

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  • Member since
    August, 2017
M60A1 RISE Passive vs M60A3
Posted by laskdjn on Wednesday, April 18, 2018 9:21 AM

To all my armor aficionados:

 

I've been wanting to do a USMC M60, however having attempted the tamiya M60A1 RISE Passive(which I was less than impressed with), and knowing the Academy M60A1 RISE Passive is just a copy of the Tamiya tank, that means I'm left with the AFV Club M60A1 or M60A3.

1.  What are the differences between the M60A1 RISE Passive(not including ERA) and the M60A3?

2.  Would it be easier to update the AFV Club M60A1 to M60A1 RISE Passive or downgrade the M60A3 to the M60A1 RISE Passive?

Thanks in advance.

 

Answers to Question 1 that I already know:

Top Loading Air Cleaner

Passive Gunner and Commander Perisocpes

Passive Driver's Viewer

M239 Smoke Grenade Launcher

M240 Coaxial Machine Gun Mount

Steel Road Wheels

T-142 Tracks(Octogons, not the weird looking ones on the M48s)

 

 

  • Member since
    December, 2002
  • From: Valrico, FL
Posted by HeavyArty on Wednesday, April 18, 2018 10:31 AM

The most visible difference is that the M60A3 has a thermal shroud on the barrel, so it is larger around than an M60A1 RISE/Passive.  It also has a cross-wind sensor mast on the rear of the turret and a few smaller differences.

M60A3

I would start with the AFV Club M60A1 and add the RISE/Passive parts to it.  Some of them are already in the AFV Club kit (top-loading air cleaners, steel road wheels, etc.).

M60A1 RISE/Passive

 

By the way, the add-on ERA (Explosive Reactive Armor) tiles have nothing to do with the Rise/Passive upgrade to the tank.  They are simply ERA that could be added to any M60 tank.  The USMC added them as an extra layer of protection to extend the life of their M60A1 tanks until they could afford to replace them with M1A1 Abrams tanks in the early '90s.

USMC M60A1 RISE/Passive w/ERA 

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  • Member since
    August, 2017
Posted by laskdjn on Wednesday, April 18, 2018 4:54 PM

I appreciate the extensive explanation.  I was AAVs in the Marines, and even then only in the 21st Century.  So, the minute details that are the makings of solid models on cold war era vehicles and tanks in general are lost on me.

Show me an AAV model, though, and I could tell you everything right or wrong on it!

 

One question, though, what extra would I have to fabricate or buy to make the AFV club M60A1 a decent representation of the M60A1 RISE Passive without the ERA.

  • Member since
    December, 2002
  • From: Valrico, FL
Posted by HeavyArty on Wednesday, April 18, 2018 8:36 PM

You would really only need to source the smoke launchers and their storage boxes that go onto the sides of the turret and the T142 tracks (AFV Club indi-links).  The rest is in the box.

Gino P. Quintiliani - Field Artillery - The KING of BATTLE!!!

Check out my Gallery: http://smg.photobuck...v231/HeavyArty/?

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

  • Member since
    July, 2004
  • From: Sunny So. Cal... The OC
Posted by stikpusher on Thursday, April 19, 2018 12:30 AM

HeavyArty

You would really only need to source the smoke launchers and their storage boxes that go onto the sides of the turret and the T142 tracks (AFV Club indi-links).  The rest is in the box.

 

Does the AFV kit come with the top or side loading air cleaners?

As an aside, you may want to look for the ESCI M60A1 kit. It has also been boxed by AMT and Italeri. Not as nice as the AFV kit, but better than Tamiya & Academy. 

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

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LSM

 

  • Member since
    December, 2002
  • From: Fort Knox
Posted by Rob Gronovius on Thursday, April 19, 2018 12:55 AM

laskdjn

To all my armor aficionados:

 

I've been wanting to do a USMC M60, however having attempted the tamiya M60A1 RISE Passive(which I was less than impressed with), and knowing the Academy M60A1 RISE Passive is just a copy of the Tamiya tank, that means I'm left with the AFV Club M60A1 or M60A3.

1.  What are the differences between the M60A1 RISE Passive(not including ERA) and the M60A3?

2.  Would it be easier to update the AFV Club M60A1 to M60A1 RISE Passive or downgrade the M60A3 to the M60A1 RISE Passive?

Thanks in advance.

 

Answers to Question 1 that I already know:

Top Loading Air Cleaner

Passive Gunner and Commander Perisocpes

Passive Driver's Viewer

M239 Smoke Grenade Launcher

M240 Coaxial Machine Gun Mount

Steel Road Wheels

T-142 Tracks(Octogons, not the weird looking ones on the M48s)

 

I typed a long response around lunch time before I went to work, but the forum did a hiccup and it got deleted. Any way, what you say you know is actually incorrect and just not a good identifier of the difference between an M60A1 RISE/Passive and an M60A3TTS.

The RISE/Passive (I'll call it an "A1" for short), had a fairly long life in the Regular Army, Army Reserves, Army National Guard and Marine Corps. By the time the Guard and Marines were done with it, they had top loading air cleaners, passive sight for the driver and cupola, later tracks, a mix of either road wheels, M240 coax, smoke grenade launchers, and grenade stowage boxes.

I have both AFV Club kits as well as being a former M60A3TTS crewman.  The only real external differences between an "A1" and "A3" are few. The A3 will have a thermal shroud. It will have a laser range finder in the right blister. It will have a crosswind sensor mount (the actual sensor rarely worked and was kept inside the turret). It will have the enlarged gunner's primary sight housing (aka "doghouse") for the tank thermal sight (TTS). The search light power port will be molded over. These are differences between a manufactured A1 and a manufactured A3. Some foreign countries bought packages to upgrade their A1s to A3s so there can be fewer differences.

I'd have to look at my AFV kits to give real specific part numbers, but it would be easier to back date the AFV A3 kit into a late A1 than to update the A1 into an A3.

  • To get a USMC late M60A1 RISE/Passive (without ERA) from the M60A3 kit just use a non-LRF right turret blister (or drill out a hotdog shaped hole in it).
  • Use a plain 105mm gun tube. Many aluminum ones to chose from.
  • Omit the crosswind sensor mast.
  • Use the searchlight power connector the kit includes.
  • Use a smaller non-TTS doghouse. I think the way the Tamiya kit is molded is with the original doghouse in place and the enlarged TTS housing glued over it. Not sure about the AFV kit without looking at the sprues.

My M60A3TTS in 1987-89 had a mix of steel and aluminum road wheels. It was manufactured with aluminum ones and once the type changed, replaced with steel ones as they wore out or were damaged. The only rule was that both road wheels on one arm had to be the same style. So you couldn't have an inner aluminum one and a steel outer one on the same arm. On an A1, you could use one or the other or intermix them.

As late as 1988-89, we were given technical manuals on how to mount the ERA on our tanks before the decision to upgrade us to M1A1 tanks.

  • Member since
    December, 2002
  • From: Fort Knox
Posted by Rob Gronovius on Thursday, April 19, 2018 1:04 AM

stikpusher

 

 
HeavyArty

You would really only need to source the smoke launchers and their storage boxes that go onto the sides of the turret and the T142 tracks (AFV Club indi-links).  The rest is in the box.

 

Does the AFV kit come with the top or side loading air cleaners?

As an aside, you may want to look for the ESCI M60A1 kit. It has also been boxed by AMT and Italeri. Not as nice as the AFV kit, but better than Tamiya & Academy. 

 

The AFV Club A3 includes both side and top loading air cleaners. I haven't check my A1 kit out, but I would guess it includes both as well.

The Esci A1 kit (and the Blazer) include only side loading air cleaners. The AMT rebox of the Blazer can be built into a straight A1, but the Italeri rebox cannot. The rare Revell of Germany rebox of the Esci M60A3TTS is probably the best version of the series because it contains most of the subsprues with optional parts. You'd need a plain gun tube to finish that kit as an A1 though.

  • Member since
    August, 2017
Posted by laskdjn on Thursday, April 19, 2018 9:15 AM

Rob Gronovius

I typed a long response around lunch time before I went to work, but the forum did a hiccup and it got deleted. Any way, what you say you know is actually incorrect and just not a good identifier of the difference between an M60A1 RISE/Passive and an M60A3TTS.

 

The RISE/Passive (I'll call it an "A1" for short), had a fairly long life in the Regular Army, Army Reserves, Army National Guard and Marine Corps. By the time the Guard and Marines were done with it, they had top loading air cleaners, passive sight for the driver and cupola, later tracks, a mix of either road wheels, M240 coax, smoke grenade launchers, and grenade stowage boxes.

I have both AFV Club kits as well as being a former M60A3TTS crewman.  The only real external differences between an "A1" and "A3" are few. The A3 will have a thermal shroud. It will have a laser range finder in the right blister. It will have a crosswind sensor mount (the actual sensor rarely worked and was kept inside the turret). It will have the enlarged gunner's primary sight housing (aka "doghouse") for the tank thermal sight (TTS). The search light power port will be molded over. These are differences between a manufactured A1 and a manufactured A3. Some foreign countries bought packages to upgrade their A1s to A3s so there can be fewer differences.

I'd have to look at my AFV kits to give real specific part numbers, but it would be easier to back date the AFV A3 kit into a late A1 than to update the A1 into an A3.

  • To get a USMC late M60A1 RISE/Passive (without ERA) from the M60A3 kit just use a non-LRF right turret blister (or drill out a hotdog shaped hole in it).
  • Use a plain 105mm gun tube. Many aluminum ones to chose from.
  • Omit the crosswind sensor mast.
  • Use the searchlight power connector the kit includes.
  • Use a smaller non-TTS doghouse. I think the way the Tamiya kit is molded is with the original doghouse in place and the enlarged TTS housing glued over it. Not sure about the AFV kit without looking at the sprues.

My M60A3TTS in 1987-89 had a mix of steel and aluminum road wheels. It was manufactured with aluminum ones and once the type changed, replaced with steel ones as they wore out or were damaged. The only rule was that both road wheels on one arm had to be the same style. So you couldn't have an inner aluminum one and a steel outer one on the same arm. On an A1, you could use one or the other or intermix them.

As late as 1988-89, we were given technical manuals on how to mount the ERA on our tanks before the decision to upgrade us to M1A1 tanks.

 

 

That's awesome.  Thank you for the detailed information.  I had thought originally that the A3 kit would be the best one to backdate to an A1 RISE Passive.  However, as I said before, I was AAVs, not Tanks, so I wasn't sure.  The answers that I thought were correct from above were pulled from AD-A141 935 which looks like a document from PMO, I think those specifically were the updates from the A1 to the A1 RISE Passive, not the differences between the A1 RISE Passive and the A3, so my mistake on properly identifying that.

 

Anyhow, thanks again for all the help with this, I think I'll go with the AFV A3 and try to back date it.  If any of you feel froggy and wanna know the differences between the AAVP7A1 and the AAVP7A1 RAM/RS.....I'm a wealth of knowledge in that area....

  • Member since
    December, 2002
  • From: Fort Knox
Posted by Rob Gronovius on Friday, April 20, 2018 8:36 AM

Fortunately, the AFV Club A3 comes with many RISE/Passive parts like a search light. If you want, I'll go through the AFV Club A1 kit to see if you can just get that kit. I found the A1 kit to be less expensive than the A3 kit.

  • Member since
    August, 2017
Posted by laskdjn on Friday, April 20, 2018 9:15 AM

If you have the time and patience, hat would be much appreciated.

 

I suppose it doesn't really matter which I start with, just what I have to get for whichever one I start with to get to the desired end result.

  • Member since
    October, 2015
  • From: Tacoma, WA.
Posted by M60_ tanker on Friday, April 20, 2018 5:25 PM

Actually, the M60A1 kit from AFV can be built as either a M60A1 or the M60A1 Rise (Passive) The only real difference externally was the addition of the smoke grenade launchers. If you want to build the Rise version, use the top loading air filters.

  • Member since
    August, 2017
Posted by laskdjn on Friday, April 20, 2018 10:41 PM

M60_ tanker

Actually, the M60A1 kit from AFV can be built as either a M60A1 or the M60A1 Rise (Passive) The only real difference externally was the addition of the smoke grenade launchers. If you want to build the Rise version, use the top loading air filters.

 

Roger that.

  • Member since
    December, 2002
  • From: Fort Knox
Posted by Rob Gronovius on Saturday, April 21, 2018 8:02 AM

M60_ tanker

Actually, the M60A1 kit from AFV can be built as either a M60A1 or the M60A1 Rise (Passive) The only real difference externally was the addition of the smoke grenade launchers. If you want to build the Rise version, use the top loading air filters.

 

Good information to know. The box is so full of parts that once I got the A3 I didn't give the A1 another glance. I got it from a scratch and dent sale for $35; roughly $30 less than the A3. I can't pass up a great deal.

  • Member since
    August, 2017
Posted by laskdjn on Sunday, April 22, 2018 6:59 PM

M60_ tanker

Actually, the M60A1 kit from AFV can be built as either a M60A1 or the M60A1 Rise (Passive) The only real difference externally was the addition of the smoke grenade launchers. If you want to build the Rise version, use the top loading air filters.

 

Was digging into the parts list online, seems like all the smoke grenade launcher parts are Sprue P, which doesn't come with the A1 kit.

  • Member since
    December, 2002
  • From: Fort Knox
Posted by Rob Gronovius on Sunday, April 22, 2018 7:52 PM

laskdjn

 

 
M60_ tanker

Actually, the M60A1 kit from AFV can be built as either a M60A1 or the M60A1 Rise (Passive) The only real difference externally was the addition of the smoke grenade launchers. If you want to build the Rise version, use the top loading air filters.

 

 

 

Was digging into the parts list online, seems like all the smoke grenade launcher parts are Sprue P, which doesn't come with the A1 kit.

 

I can check my kit.

  • Member since
    August, 2017
Posted by laskdjn on Sunday, April 22, 2018 8:12 PM

Rob Gronovius
laskdjn

Was digging into the parts list online, seems like all the smoke grenade launcher parts are Sprue P, which doesn't come with the A1 kit.

I can check my kit.

 

I appreciate it.

 

Worst comes to worst, I can buy resin from eBay or figure out a way to get Sprue P

  • Member since
    December, 2002
  • From: Fort Knox
Posted by Rob Gronovius on Monday, April 23, 2018 12:49 AM

He's right that the A1 kit doesn't include smoke grenade launchers and boxes. If you plan on ever building a USMC M1A1, buy that tank and use the Army style grenade launchers that come with an Abrams kit. They will be unused because the Marine Corps Abrams uses a different launcher. Unless you plan on doing a Desert Storm era tank; it would need them.

  • Member since
    August, 2017
Posted by laskdjn on Monday, April 23, 2018 9:14 AM

Rob Gronovius

He's right that the A1 kit doesn't include smoke grenade launchers and boxes. If you plan on ever building a USMC M1A1, buy that tank and use the Army style grenade launchers that come with an Abrams kit. They will be unused because the Marine Corps Abrams uses a different launcher. Unless you plan on doing a Desert Storm era tank; it would need them.

 

 

Even if you get an Abrams kit with the Army style grenade launchers, you'd still need the mounting brackets which are also part of Sprue P.  Also, on further inspection of the instructions on http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/plamo/, it seems you'd also need the Q sprue for the cannon plug connector(Q8) to the back of the smoke grenade launchers as well.

 

Did some searching online for how to get spare sprues from AFV club, came up on an eBay seller named moon03tw as possibly being able to sell you individual sprues.  I contacted him and he might be able to do it, but not until 3 May.

 

Jack

  • Member since
    December, 2002
  • From: Fort Knox
Posted by Rob Gronovius on Monday, April 23, 2018 9:28 AM

laskdjn

 

 
Rob Gronovius

He's right that the A1 kit doesn't include smoke grenade launchers and boxes. If you plan on ever building a USMC M1A1, buy that tank and use the Army style grenade launchers that come with an Abrams kit. They will be unused because the Marine Corps Abrams uses a different launcher. Unless you plan on doing a Desert Storm era tank; it would need them.

 

 

 

 

Even if you get an Abrams kit with the Army style grenade launchers, you'd still need the mounting brackets which are also part of Sprue P.  Also, on further inspection of the instructions on http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/plamo/, it seems you'd also need the Q sprue for the cannon plug connector(Q8) to the back of the smoke grenade launchers as well.

 

Did some searching online for how to get spare sprues from AFV club, came up on an eBay seller named moon03tw as possibly being able to sell you individual sprues.  I contacted him and he might be able to do it, but not until 3 May.

 

Jack

 

Then I would go back to my original recommendation of getting the AFV M60A3 kit and backdating it to the RISE/Passive by using what's in the box and getting an aluminum unshrouded 105mm barrel. The only issue is that for some reason, the A3 goes for more than the A1. And they're 98% the same kit.

I originally got the A1 with plans to make it into an A3 using Tamiya parts, but the kit was so nice that I didn't think the parts from the 1980s Tamiya would do it justice so I sought out the AFV A3.

  • Member since
    August, 2017
Posted by laskdjn on Monday, April 23, 2018 9:35 AM

Rob Gronovius

Then I would go back to my original recommendation of getting the AFV M60A3 kit and backdating it to the RISE/Passive by using what's in the box and getting an aluminum unshrouded 105mm barrel. The only issue is that for some reason, the A3 goes for more than the A1. And they're 98% the same kit.

I originally got the A1 with plans to make it into an A3 using Tamiya parts, but the kit was so nice that I didn't think the parts from the 1980s Tamiya would do it justice so I sought out the AFV A3.

 

 
Yup, I think that'll be the plan going forward.  I'm gonna wanna see what moon03tw says on eBay regarding the additional sprues, then go from there.
 
And then there's always the Legend Resin Update kit, also on eBay.
  • Member since
    December, 2002
  • From: Valrico, FL
Posted by HeavyArty on Monday, April 23, 2018 10:42 AM

I have bought AFV Club sprues through moon03tw before.  He is a great guy to deal with and will get you the sprues with no problem.

I personally would stick w/the AFV Club M60A1 and source the smoke launchers and storage boxes somewhere, either in resin or plastic. The rest is in the box. 

This set, would give yo all you need to build and M60A1 RISE/Passive and add some details to the kit.

Legend M60A1 Patton Tank Basic Detailing Set (AFV Club AF35060) LF1305

Gino P. Quintiliani - Field Artillery - The KING of BATTLE!!!

Check out my Gallery: http://smg.photobuck...v231/HeavyArty/?

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

  • Member since
    August, 2017
Posted by laskdjn on Tuesday, April 24, 2018 12:02 AM

I saw that, but I've never dealt with resin before, and I wouldn't wanna trash such an expensive model on resin experimentation.  I've heard it's not as easy as a drop in replacement

  • Member since
    December, 2002
  • From: Valrico, FL
Posted by HeavyArty on Tuesday, April 24, 2018 8:12 AM

I think you should give it  a shot.  Resin is not hard to work with.  You have to start somewhere.

Gino P. Quintiliani - Field Artillery - The KING of BATTLE!!!

Check out my Gallery: http://smg.photobuck...v231/HeavyArty/?

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

  • Member since
    August, 2017
Posted by laskdjn on Tuesday, April 24, 2018 9:00 AM

HeavyArty

I think you should give it  a shot.  Resin is not hard to work with.  You have to start somewhere.

 

Yeah, I feel ya on that.  My reservations are cutting my teeth on resin on a 60 dollar kit.

  • Member since
    December, 2002
  • From: Fort Knox
Posted by Rob Gronovius on Tuesday, April 24, 2018 9:32 AM

He's right that it isn't that hard to work with resin. Razor saw blade to cut the mold pour stub away and sometimes you need to cut away some plastic of the kit part. You do have to use CA glue (super glue).

I haven't done a side by side comparison to see what sprues are different between the AFV A1 and A3. I did notice that my A3 came with two different barrels; didn't take a close enough look to see if one is the plain unshrouded one though.

  • Member since
    December, 2002
  • From: Valrico, FL
Posted by HeavyArty on Tuesday, April 24, 2018 9:56 AM

The two barrel types in the AFV Club M60A3 kit are a late and early M68A1 thermal shrouded barrel.  The early M68A1 barrel has separate straps that hold the shroud on.  The late M68A1 barrel has a differently designed shroud that has integral clips and does not require the straps.  Neither barrel is the correct M68 unshrouded barrel appropriate for an M60A1.

Def Model also offers both the early and late M68A1 barrel in metal.  You can see the differences below.

Def Model also does just the M68 barrel for an M60A1.

Gino P. Quintiliani - Field Artillery - The KING of BATTLE!!!

Check out my Gallery: http://smg.photobuck...v231/HeavyArty/?

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

  • Member since
    December, 2002
  • From: Fort Knox
Posted by Rob Gronovius on Tuesday, April 24, 2018 11:36 AM

Then I still stand by my recommendation to get the A3 and just use the plain DEF barrel (or similar brand) to backdate it to a RISE/Passive. Barrel looks like an easy fix.

As an aside, it appears my barrel has the clamps. I do remember taking it off when we had to punch the tubes after gunnery. My thermal shroud looks like it was installed upside down since the slots should be on the underside to allow water to drain.

This photo was taken during an infantry battalion's ARTEP gunnery we supported the summer before we turned in the A3s for M1A1s in May or June of 1989.

  • Member since
    September, 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Tuesday, April 24, 2018 11:45 AM

Does that mean clean it? Why did you need to take off the shroud?

  • Member since
    August, 2017
Posted by laskdjn on Tuesday, April 24, 2018 2:33 PM

GMorrison

Does that mean clean it? Why did you need to take off the shroud?

 

Yeah, punching the bore would be cleaning it, I don't know why the shroud had to be taken off, we only had a .50cal and an Mk19 on the AAV, no big guns

  • Member since
    September, 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Tuesday, April 24, 2018 2:37 PM

Maybe so you don't get Hoppe's all over it?

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