The Road to Bastogne

Sergeant

 

 

fotofrank

You guys are amazing! Just amazing. Sarge, I can't wait to see the finished diorama. It's really going to be something. I remember seeing a program as a kid, The Twentieth Century maybe, narrated by Walter Cronkite, about the "Battered Bastards of Bastogne." In the film, the ice on the road was so thick that a Sherman tank was sliding sideways through an intersection. This thread is a build log, right?

 

 

 

 

fotofrank, part of the fun in scale modeling is the research and effort to accurately replicate an event from history. I have watched the video 'Battered Bastards of Bastogne' and it was very well done.

 

 

Oh, I'm knowing that the rsearch is part of the fun in modeling. My dad was assigned to Lowry Field in January 1945 for B-29 transition training. While there he got some stick-time in a P-40. I spent a week researching P-40 units at Lowry at that time and found a picture of a flight of P-40s taken from the back seat of an A-24. I based my P-40N build on one of those airplanes because my dad may have flown the airplane. Yes, the research is a major part of the fun of building. Thanks, Sergeant.

Ixion, I  studied geology in junior college and did some excavating at a place in Oregon called Richardson's Rock Ranch digging for thunder eggs. As you know we have very diverse geology in Oregon and Washington.

I've been to Richardson's Ranch myself, many years ago. I sometimes look for fossils out on Highway 26 in Oregon, near the Nehalem river, when I get to take a trip down that way. Losta rocks out here. 

fotofrank

Oh, I'm knowing that the rsearch is part of the fun in modeling. My dad was assigned to Lowry Field in January 1945 for B-29 transition training. While there he got some stick-time in a P-40. I spent a week researching P-40 units at Lowry at that time and found a picture of a flight of P-40s taken from the back seat of an A-24. I based my P-40N build on one of those airplanes because my dad may have flown the airplane. Yes, the research is a major part of the fun of building. Thanks, Sergeant.

 

Pawel

Hello Sarge!

Thanks a lot for the info, now I know what you're up to!

And isn't the forum great? It seldom works as good as on this one, but when it does - then it's a really good thing to be on! I like this thread a lot, it's about accuracy now!

I would say the colour for the jeeps is too light. IMO it looks more like the modern forrest green than the correct old OD - but that's the talk about colours, so subjective. I'd say don't match the colour to what the restorers did - they might have slipped here... Maybe it would be better to find some old ammo can or something like this and match the colour to that? I have an OD ammo can from the sixties or seventies and the best match to it's colour is Humbrol 66 with some future on top of that.

I believe you know that the antenna has to be tied down to not whip around and avoid hurting people on the way... Once I have made the tie-down out of a nylon thread taken from a stocking (that's always a fascinating story :-). Maybe you have some use for that trick, too.

Good luck with your dio and have a nice day!

Paweł

 

Hello Sarge!

That's an easy one - as long as the lacquer based coat is dry, you can paint enamels over that without any issues - I do it all the time. You could get into trouble trying to paint something lacquer based OVER an enamel coat, but even in such case it sometimes can be done.

Good luck with your build and have a nice day

Paweł

Ixion

I'm from the class of '77 of CRHS, my chemistry teacher, Larry Cloe, was of the first class, valedictorian in fact.

 

Ixion, I did not find Larry Cloe’s name in my Shumway Junior High year book; however, last night my wife and I talked with a lady who’s son was in one of Larry’s classes at Columbia River. She remembers Larry very well.

Pawel

Hello Sarge!

That's an easy one - as long as the lacquer based coat is dry, you can paint enamels over that without any issues - I do it all the time. You could get into trouble trying to paint something lacquer based OVER an enamel coat, but even in such case it sometimes can be done.

Good luck with your build and have a nice day

Paweł

 

I noted that in your earlier reply you recommend ‘Future’ over the Humbrol 66. I have read about using Future as a seal coat, but I’m going to stay with what I know on this first experience with enamel paint. However, I would like to know how, or if you thin the Humbrol 66 for air brushing?

Humbrol 66 is too dark for US Army ground forces WWII Olive Drab. It is good for the dark OD shade in use during Vietnam. But not WWII. 

As far as thinning Humbrol enamels for airbrushing, I get great results using Testors Universal enamel thinner to do that. 

"Is this the room for an argument?"  -- Monty Python

Stik> Just for arguments sake, do any of these appear close to a 1944 OD shade?  Vagaries of monitors aside.

Gary

QMS #41 is the USAAC/AAF OD #41 aircraft color which is not Army Ground Forces OD #9.  ANA 613 would be close to the proper AGF color as it was the revised color that the Army/Navy wanted to use for one OD, but the AAF did not as they directed manufacturers to continue to use OD 41.  As per Dana Bell's AF Colors, vol. 1.

Sgt, check your A3 kit to see if it has the sandshields.  Many crews took them off due to accidents, etc.  Do not use the early hull as it has the 57 degree glacis instead of the later 47 degree glacis plate.  Check this, the 9th row of photos down; notice the missing sandshields on tanks that have not been issued yet:

http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minutia/manufacturer/m4a376w/m4a3_76w.html

GAF

"Is this the room for an argument?"  -- Monty Python

Stik> Just for arguments sake, do any of these appear close to a 1944 OD shade?  Vagaries of monitors aside.

 

Gary

 

QMS#8 is the shade that was used by Army Ground Forces, as mentioned above. Model Master recently issued their take on the shade, but I have yet to use it on a build. And to be honest, depending upon what weathering you use, the basic OD will look different afterwards compared to when you first put it on the build. One other point that I alluded to eatlier- a camo scheme. That M4A3 in the photo was in a multi color scheme used by the 9th AD.  Blotches of Black and Light Green (the same color as Interior Green) were sprayed over the basic OD. 2nd and 3rd Armored Divisions had their vehicle’s camouflaged with bands of Black over the OD from the time of Cobra thru the Bulge.

I got up early this morning to research ’the right olive drab’ and I have been reading for hours. There is so much debate over this subject it makes my head hurt. I’m going to try Tamiya XF-62 Olive Drab mixed with Tamiya XF-60 Dark Yellow at 25% and 35% for 1/35 scale and see how it looks under different lightIng conditions. Then when my Humbrol 66 arrives I will compare the two sample and see how they look together under the same lighting.

I do agree with Stik, that time period is a major consideration in deciding which O.D. color is right and in this case I am trying to represent WWII ground force vehicles. However, by the time I finish covering them with mud and snow in the diorama ‘the right olive drab’ will probably look different.

Oh and then we have the 9th Armored Division camouflage added to the tank which by the time I’m done may look like something entirely different.

You can’t tell, but I’m smiling... This is crazy! We are the definition of fanatics.

Humbrol 66 is a very dark shade. But not too much darker than basic Tamiya OD. They just lean towards different hues.

richs26

Sgt, check your A3 kit to see if it has the sandshields.  Many crews took them off due to accidents, etc.  Do not use the early hull as it has the 57 degree glacis instead of the later 47 degree glacis plate.  Check this, the 9th row of photos down; notice the missing sandshields on tanks that have not been issued yet:

http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minutia/manufacturer/m4a376w/m4a3_76w.html

 

Yes, the right side fender and sand shield is missing on the tank in the photo. Also you will need a new turret if you’re going to model that exact tank. It has the early split ring loaders hatch on the 76mm gunned T23 turret. The Tamiya kit comes with the late production 75mm gunned M4 turret.

stikpusher

Yes, the right side fender and sand shield is missing on the tank in the photo. Also you will need a new turret if you’re going to model that exact tank. It has the early split ring loaders hatch on the 76mm gunned T23 turret. The Tamiya kit comes with the late production 75mm gunned M4 turret.

 

I have plenty of Italeri Sherman and Priest sand shields (they are identical) in my spares bin. PM me an address if you want me to send you a set. 

That T23 turret that you posted has the early split ring loaders hatch. The later T23 turret had a smaller oval hatch identical to the type used on the later 75mm turret that the kit has.

stikpusher

I have plenty of Italeri Sherman and Priest sand shields (they are identical) in my spares bin. PM me an address if you want me to send you a set. 

That T23 turret that you posted has the early split ring loaders hatch. The later T23 turret had a smaller oval hatch identical to the type used on the later 75mm turret that the kit has.

 

Ok, once I get home, I’ll dig out the parts for you. 

Here is a link on all you need to know about Sherman turrets

http://www.theshermantank.com/about/sherman-tank-turrets/

I have kit bashed a couple Tamiya and Italeri Sherman’s using new ones from Verlinden, Italeri, and Academy, to make different versions.

stikpusher

Ok, once I get home, I’ll dig out the parts for you. 

Here is a link on all you need to know about Sherman turrets

 

http://www.theshermantank.com/about/sherman-tank-turrets/

 

I have kit bashed a couple Tamiya and Italeri Sherman’s using new ones from Verlinden, Italeri, and Academy, to make different versions.

 

Harold

More color info:

https://gluestickssite.wordpress.com/2016/03/03/now-is-this-olive-drab/

https://olive-drab.com/od_mvg_odpaint.php

Sgt., you don't have to worry about the type of loader's hatch as your's is obviously the early split hatch, not the later oval hatch.  The Shaddock site has the oval hatch starting to be manufactured around October 1944, and arriving on the Continent in early 1945.  Documentation is sketchy, but they arrived at this conclusion through photo and film analysis.

http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minutia/turret_types/76mm_turrets.html

Sergeant

 

 

 

Wow, between you and richs26 you guys have really gone deep in Sherman research. Thank you both for the valuable links.

 

Harold

 

Sgt., I consider it the thrill of the chase in finding out "useless and unneeded inormation".

Sergeant

I got up early this morning to research ’the right olive drab’ and I have been reading for hours. There is so much debate over this subject it makes my head hurt. I’m going to try Tamiya XF-62 Olive Drab mixed with Tamiya XF-60 Dark Yellow at 25% to 35% for 1/35 scale and see how it looks under different lightIng conditions. Then when my Humbrol 66 arrives I will compare the two sample and see how they look together under the same lighting.

I do agree with Stik, that time period is a major consideration in deciding which O.D. color is right and in this case I am trying to represent WWII ground force vehicles. However, by the time I finish covering them with mud and snow in the diorama ‘the right olive drab’ will probably look different.

Oh and then we have the 9th Armored Division camouflage added to the tank which by the time I’m done may look like something entirely different.

You can’t tell, but I’m smiling... This is crazy! We are the definition of fanatics.

 

Step 2 will be to compare a sample of Humbrol 66 Olive Drab with the Tamiya paint samples under the same lighting and in natural daylight.

stikpusher

 

 

GAF

"Is this the room for an argument?"  -- Monty Python

Stik> Just for arguments sake, do any of these appear close to a 1944 OD shade?  Vagaries of monitors aside.

 

Gary

 

 

 

 

QMS#8 is the shade that was used by Army Ground Forces, as mentioned above. Model Master recently issued their take on the shade, but I have yet to use it on a build. And to be honest, depending upon what weathering you use, the basic OD will look different afterwards compared to when you first put it on the build. One other point that I alluded to eatlier- a camo scheme. That M4A3 in the photo was in a multi color scheme used by the 9th AD.  Blotches of Black and Light Green (the same color as Interior Green) were sprayed over the basic OD. 2nd and 3rd Armored Divisions had their vehicle’s camouflaged with bands of Black over the OD from the time of Cobra thru the Bulge.

 

Then I mixed 2/3 Tamiya XF-62 Olive Drab with 1/3 XF-5 Flat Green and superimposed the paint sample over the O.D. Color Chart shown below. I believe the paint sample is close enough that I'm ready to try it on a 1/35 scale model and see how it looks. Before I do that, I would like your feedback. What do you think?

I forgot to mention that my paint sample shown above has two coats of Tamiya Gray Liquid Surface Primer under the olive green paint.

My opinion - go with what looks right to you.  By the time you've glossed, weathered, washed, oil pin spotted and beaten with a tire chain (okay, maybe not that last one) then the color will look entirely different anyway! 

I will say the spoon color does look very close to the Olive Green on the chart,  but had someone asked me what color WWII American vehicles were painted, I don't think I would have chosen that one.  Seems too green to me (IMO).

Good luck!

Gary

PS> Oh, and I enjoyed your jeep build.  I've got a couple of 1/48 scale Hasegawa jeeps I've been meaning to assemble, but the color for the engines has been keeping me away.

GAF

My opinion - go with what looks right to you.  By the time you've glossed, weathered, washed, oil pin spotted and beaten with a tire chain (okay, maybe not that last one) then the color will look entirely different anyway! 

I will say the spoon color does look very close to the Olive Green on the chart,  but had someone asked me what color WWII American vehicles were painted, I don't think I would have chosen that one.  Seems too green to me (IMO).

Good luck!

Gary

PS> Oh, and I enjoyed your jeep build.  I've got a couple of 1/48 scale Hasegawa jeeps I've been meaning to assemble, but the color for the engines has been keeping me away.

 

Harold

Lol! I’ve read up a good bit, but would hardly call it actual research. I have a few items of WWII stuff in my collection that is in original OD paint (or at least I hope so). None it looks quite like any model paint ODs that I’ve come across. That being said, I agree with the above on going with what looks best to your eye. I don’t trust computer monitor color chips or any of that stuff. My old favorite WWII OD for US Army vehicle’s starting point was Gunze. But they stopped importing their acrylic line here, and I ran out, so it’s time to use other brands that are “close enough”. My weathering tends to be based upon my personal experiences, so it’s usually lots of dust, dirt, and/or mud. And that alters the OD substantially. I rarely now do a build in “motor pool condition”, with minimal weathering and clean paint.