Land wasser schlepper crews?

CapnMac82

...

The Germans had a bit of blind spot to their own interservice rivalries, and did nothing to prevent or molify them.  Consider the goat rope that was to have been Graf Spee--an aircraft carrier meant to have Luftwaffe planes and pilots on a KM ship--but without working out the details, like who were the maintence people going to be, LW or KM, who was to be in charge of spares, and fuel. ...

 

Ooops, I suspect you meant the Graf Zeppelin

GMorrison

The LWS was barely ever beyond the prototype stage from what I understand. Close to 20,000 LVTs were built. To me it would make sense to model it in demo or prototype situations.

 

No, it never really was. But then again, there never was the pressing need for a German Amtrac either. There was no amphibious war in the German army’s future, only river crossings, an apples to oranges comparison. As opposed to the US, which had the concept visualized and planned for as a drive across the Central Pacific against the Japanese Empire in the 1920s, War Plan Orange. The Japanese had developed a similar plan to fight against that, with a decisive naval battle to be fought against the US fleet in Imperial waters. The Central Pacific campaign battles of 1943-1945 were essentially those plans put into effect, becoming reality.

Going back to the LVT, it wasn’t until early 1944, that those appeared in real numbers on the battlefield for more than the lead assault wave. The LVT-1s were un armored cargo haulers barely used in the Solomons and North Africa. They were not intended as an assault craft. The LVT-2 began to arrive on scene in time for the Gilbert Island assaults in late November 1943 and had its numbers, as well as the available LVT-1s split between the Tarawa and Makin landings. The LVT-1s were modified with some armor and weapons for these landings. The first true ”assault” models of the LVT would not arrive until the spring/summer of 1944.

In summer 1940, the time of Sea Lion, the LVT program was very much on par with the LWS program. 

The LWS was barely ever beyond the prototype stage from what I understand. Close to 20,000 LVTs were built. To me it would make sense to model it in demo or prototype situations.

stikpusher

The LWS was basicly the same concept as the LVT-1, but with a boat cabin in place of where the cargo compartment was placed on the LVT. But not developed much beyond the basic role, unlike the LVT family. 

Capn, I’m not too familiar with Sea Lion myself. But what I have read is the the German Army was treating it as a river crossing operation on a much wider scale. They were planning to use various river barges towed across the Channel for much of the assault force. In conjunction with parachute and air landing operations. The German Navy  was still recovering from losses sustained during the assault on Norway and had a better idea of the obstacles that lay ahead due to that campaign.

 

That is correct, it sounded like they had some craft that would have ramps but they were very crude in design. I read We March Agaisn’t England” over the summer and the reasons for failure and flailing was that no one really wanted to seriously do it. The navy had to many loses and the air force hadn’t gained superiority of the sky. The army wasn’t as enthused but you had the higher ups who had some good ideas In all the branches whcih ultimately gave them a future amphibious capability. I think the bigger Batges carrying the panzer III’s that had snorkels we’re going to be in ramped barges. Everything else sounds as if they’d use Pioneer boats with small motors to maneuver ashore. Some other ideas were letting the barges come ashore and beach themselves and when the high tide came back in they’d sail back to port.

The LWS was basicly the same concept as the LVT-1, but with a boat cabin in place of where the cargo compartment was placed on the LVT. But not developed much beyond the basic role, unlike the LVT family. 

Capn, I’m not too familiar with Sea Lion myself. But what I have read is the the German Army was treating it as a river crossing operation on a much wider scale. They were planning to use various river barges towed across the Channel for much of the assault force. In conjunction with parachute and air landing operations. The German Navy  was still recovering from losses sustained during the assault on Norway and had a better idea of the obstacles that lay ahead due to that campaign.

While my knowledge of Wehrmacht intracasies is largely limited to Tamiya kits of the 70s  80s, and thus sore limited.  But, I have 24 years experience as a Naval Officer, and a third of that in Amphib, so, that's a topic I have some depth within.

So, to that end I can offer some experience and insight.

For a head-bender, about the time the Germans were flailing about with Sea Lion, a fellow name of Higgins was having a notion that boats specially adapted for landing troops ashore might want a ramp to better offload the personnel.

From the perspective of the present, they idea of ramped landing craft is self-evident, but it wasn't quite so obvious in 1940.  Even the concept of landing in waves, so as to shuttle the boats back to motherships to offload even more troops was not yet a fully-formed idea.

The Germans had a bit of blind spot to their own interservice rivalries, and did nothing to prevent or molify them.  Consider the goat rope that was to have been Graf Spee--an aircraft carrier meant to have Luftwaffe planes and pilots on a KM ship--but without working out the details, like who were the maintence people going to be, LW or KM, who was to be in charge of spares, and fuel.  These are not casual items, naval aviation is a very specialized activity.  So are amphibious operations.

CapnMac82

 

 

Tankluver

Would a Kriegsmarine uniform

 

 

Which uniform?
Kriegsmarine had a blue and a white uniform, in both working and dress form (jumpers or a jacket).  Snipes has a distinctive rating insignia (as most navies do).

Only the coast artillery Kriegsmarine wore feldgrau, and in the original pattern with grey trousers and green collars, all using gold insignia on a green background.  They did not field Engineers; the snipes used their rating badge of a gear in gold on the sleeve.

In 1943 KM changed to all red insigna for Rating, and kept (most of) the gold Rank insignia.

If a person needed to be ferried out to some moored vessel, the KM would just use a launch of some sort, which they would have had in operation as "water taxi" and were hugely more efficient in the water.

Navies do what navies do--you don't send an LCM if a launch is available; you don't send a 40' personnel boat if a 26' whaler is available, particularly if only one person is being moved.

Army Engineers, though, are somewhat nuts the world over, they will use a bridge tug because that's what they have (and becasue no one thought to get them a jon-boat).

Heer Engineers appear to use black piping.

 

Thank you for that insight. The LWS sounded like it was supposed to be a ferry that also carried a load of 20 soldiers as well, i guess in the army world that makes sense but in the navy world i could see the use of a launch as the primary means. I know sea lion was somewhat thrown together so I’m assuming that anything and everything from tugboats to boats with random aircraft motors would of been used because of the ad-hoc nature of the assault force.

Tankluver

Would a Kriegsmarine uniform

Which uniform?
Kriegsmarine had a blue and a white uniform, in both working and dress form (jumpers or a jacket).  Snipes has a distinctive rating insignia (as most navies do).

Only the coast artillery Kriegsmarine wore feldgrau, and in the original pattern with grey trousers and green collars, all using gold insignia on a green background.  They did not field Engineers; the snipes used their rating badge of a gear in gold on the sleeve.

In 1943 KM changed to all red insigna for Rating, and kept (most of) the gold Rank insignia.

If a person needed to be ferried out to some moored vessel, the KM would just use a launch of some sort, which they would have had in operation as "water taxi" and were hugely more efficient in the water.

Navies do what navies do--you don't send an LCM if a launch is available; you don't send a 40' personnel boat if a 26' whaler is available, particularly if only one person is being moved.

Army Engineers, though, are somewhat nuts the world over, they will use a bridge tug because that's what they have (and becasue no one thought to get them a jon-boat).

Heer Engineers appear to use black piping.

Bronto

 

 

Tankluver

Sorry, the time and place would be 1940, prepping for sea lion.

 

 

 

The LWS was not in service during the time frame for Sea Lion.

 

It was being prepped for sea lion, The whole idea of the LWS was that a few would be used to help with the landing. They didn’t have a vast quantity of them but a few were in testing stages. Also withbsea lion being postponed to 1941 they would of had more.

Tankluver

Sorry, the time and place would be 1940, prepping for sea lion.

The LWS was not in service during the time frame for Sea Lion.

stikpusher

Ok... the crew would wear standard 1936 type uniforms, with the jackboots, and side caps if they’re not in helmets. The Mountain troops would wear a similar uniform, their low topped mountain boots, possibly with ankle gaiters or puttees, and the mountain cap that was later adapted by the rest of the army mid war. 

 

okay i got some mountain troops I’m not doing a lot just a few. I’m gonna probably out the crew in helmets if i can 

Ok... the crew would wear standard 1936 type uniforms, with the jackboots, and side caps if they’re not in helmets. The Mountain troops would wear a similar uniform, their low topped mountain boots, possibly with ankle gaiters or puttees, and the mountain cap that was later adapted by the rest of the army mid war. 

stikpusher

Yes, an idea of the locale you plan, as well as time frame will help with suggestions for appropriate figures

 

Sorry, the time and place would be 1940, prepping for sea lion. I wanted to depict some gerbisjager walking into the LWS to get ferried to a barge waiting in the harbor. Kind of a open ended diorama, are they prepping to invade or just doing load training. 

Yes, an idea of the locale you plan, as well as time frame will help with suggestions for appropriate figures

Tankluver

 

 

stikpusher

 

 

Tankluver

 

 

stikpusher

As stated above, Wehrmacht was the overall professional armed forces of the Third Reich. Heer being the army, Kriegsmarine the Navy, and Luftwaffe the Air Force. When you see vehicle license plates the two letter prefix indicates the service: e.g. WH Wehrmacht Heer, or WL Wehrmacht Luftwaffe. The Waffen SS was a separate armed force selected for aryan racial criteria and political reliability. 

Engineers are one of the long standing combat arms branches of any army, alongside Infantry, Artillery, Cavalry and their twentieth century replacement, Armor. Engineers can construct obstacles, minefields, or fortifications in the defense, or provide the specialized equipment to overcome those things in the offense. Not to mention providing the skills and equipment to overcome the natural obstacles of terrain such as rivers, ravines, etc. that nature provides in the path of an army. 

 

 

 

 

Would a Kriegsmarine uniform with engineer colored piping be suitable. Or would i need to modify the figure a little more then that? 

 

 

 

 

If it is the tradional naval uniform with the double breasted coat or “Cracker Jack” type top, no they will not work for army troops. 

Engineers wore the same uniform as most army troops, with the exception of Panzer crews, who had their own specialized uniforms.

 

 

 

 

Okay, I’m not sure on some of these figures but i can tell they have a naval cap so that wouldnt work, maybe ill use one as  a type of beach master or load master. I have seen the panzer crewmen in Uboat leather jackets which i may go for but not positive yet. 

 

Those U-Boat leather jackets were worn by members on the 12th SS Pz Div in 43/44, they were not in common use.

Any normal army figures would work, and depending on the time frame would depend on what they are wearing.

stikpusher

 

 

Tankluver

 

 

stikpusher

As stated above, Wehrmacht was the overall professional armed forces of the Third Reich. Heer being the army, Kriegsmarine the Navy, and Luftwaffe the Air Force. When you see vehicle license plates the two letter prefix indicates the service: e.g. WH Wehrmacht Heer, or WL Wehrmacht Luftwaffe. The Waffen SS was a separate armed force selected for aryan racial criteria and political reliability. 

Engineers are one of the long standing combat arms branches of any army, alongside Infantry, Artillery, Cavalry and their twentieth century replacement, Armor. Engineers can construct obstacles, minefields, or fortifications in the defense, or provide the specialized equipment to overcome those things in the offense. Not to mention providing the skills and equipment to overcome the natural obstacles of terrain such as rivers, ravines, etc. that nature provides in the path of an army. 

 

 

 

 

Would a Kriegsmarine uniform with engineer colored piping be suitable. Or would i need to modify the figure a little more then that? 

 

 

 

 

If it is the tradional naval uniform with the double breasted coat or “Cracker Jack” type top, no they will not work for army troops. 

Engineers wore the same uniform as most army troops, with the exception of Panzer crews, who had their own specialized uniforms.

 

Okay, I’m not sure on some of these figures but i can tell they have a naval cap so that wouldnt work, maybe ill use one as  a type of beach master or load master. I have seen the panzer crewmen in Uboat leather jackets which i may go for but not positive yet. 

Tankluver

 

 

stikpusher

As stated above, Wehrmacht was the overall professional armed forces of the Third Reich. Heer being the army, Kriegsmarine the Navy, and Luftwaffe the Air Force. When you see vehicle license plates the two letter prefix indicates the service: e.g. WH Wehrmacht Heer, or WL Wehrmacht Luftwaffe. The Waffen SS was a separate armed force selected for aryan racial criteria and political reliability. 

Engineers are one of the long standing combat arms branches of any army, alongside Infantry, Artillery, Cavalry and their twentieth century replacement, Armor. Engineers can construct obstacles, minefields, or fortifications in the defense, or provide the specialized equipment to overcome those things in the offense. Not to mention providing the skills and equipment to overcome the natural obstacles of terrain such as rivers, ravines, etc. that nature provides in the path of an army. 

 

 

 

 

Would a Kriegsmarine uniform with engineer colored piping be suitable. Or would i need to modify the figure a little more then that? 

 

If it is the tradional naval uniform with the double breasted coat or “Cracker Jack” type top, no they will not work for army troops. 

Engineers wore the same uniform as most army troops, with the exception of Panzer crews, who had their own specialized uniforms.

I was thinking about this a little. I'd allow myself a fair amount of leeway due to the conditions of service. Towing a bridge section across a river in Russia in March might call for much different kit than in Central Europe, much less the Middle East of course.

Life jackets seem to be pretty common. Soft caps.

stikpusher

As stated above, Wehrmacht was the overall professional armed forces of the Third Reich. Heer being the army, Kriegsmarine the Navy, and Luftwaffe the Air Force. When you see vehicle license plates the two letter prefix indicates the service: e.g. WH Wehrmacht Heer, or WL Wehrmacht Luftwaffe. The Waffen SS was a separate armed force selected for aryan racial criteria and political reliability. 

Engineers are one of the long standing combat arms branches of any army, alongside Infantry, Artillery, Cavalry and their twentieth century replacement, Armor. Engineers can construct obstacles, minefields, or fortifications in the defense, or provide the specialized equipment to overcome those things in the offense. Not to mention providing the skills and equipment to overcome the natural obstacles of terrain such as rivers, ravines, etc. that nature provides in the path of an army. 

 

Would a Kriegsmarine uniform with engineer colored piping be suitable. Or would i need to modify the figure a little more then that? 

As GM says, they were operated by Army (Heer) enginners.

And as mentoned, the Wehrmacht is the German armed forces, though quitre often people use it for just the army.

As stated above, Wehrmacht was the overall professional armed forces of the Third Reich. Heer being the army, Kriegsmarine the Navy, and Luftwaffe the Air Force. When you see vehicle license plates the two letter prefix indicates the service: e.g. WH Wehrmacht Heer, or WL Wehrmacht Luftwaffe. The Waffen SS was a separate armed force selected for aryan racial criteria and political reliability. 

Engineers are one of the long standing combat arms branches of any army, alongside Infantry, Artillery, Cavalry and their twentieth century replacement, Armor. Engineers can construct obstacles, minefields, or fortifications in the defense, or provide the specialized equipment to overcome those things in the offense. Not to mention providing the skills and equipment to overcome the natural obstacles of terrain such as rivers, ravines, etc. that nature provides in the path of an army. 

armornut

Would the engineers be considered "Heer"? Or where they part of the Wehrmacht?

What we need is Bish, or stikpusher--they are smart on this stuff.

"Heer" (pronounced "hare") is German for "Army." 

During the war, all of the forces (other than the SS) were administratively grouped into the Wehrmacht ("VEHR mahkt") which was meant to be a sort-of Department of Defence.

As far as I know (which is not much) German Army Engineers wore Army uniforms, just with a distinctive piping color, as they were part of the Deutsches Heer.  (Unless I'm wrong.)

Unlike in the US, Costal Artillery was under the command of he Kriegsmarine, and they had Feldgrau uniforms.  (Costal Arty was a branch of the Army in the US, part of the War Department, not the Navy.)

I had found some Kriegsmarine figures in 1/35 so i wondered if they’d pass or not

    Would the engineers be considered "Heer"? Or where they part of the Wehrmacht?

They were crewed by Army Engineers.