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AFV Club 1/35 155mm M109 L23 and M109A2 Howitzers

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  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Valrico, FL
Posted by HeavyArty on Tuesday, June 23, 2020 9:57 PM

Looking good.  Yes, the plate on turret roof is an access cover for the hydralics.  That is where they go.

Gino P. Quintiliani - Field Artillery - The KING of BATTLE!!!

Check out my Gallery: http://smg.photobuck...v231/HeavyArty/?

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Tuesday, June 23, 2020 10:47 PM

HeavyArty

Looking good.  Yes, the plate on turret roof is an access cover for the hydralics.  That is where they go.

 

Thank you Gino, it is really great having your experience with M109's.

Harold

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Wednesday, June 24, 2020 1:45 PM

I completed assembly of interior components on the deck of the turret. The next step is assembly of the fire control, breech mechanism and overhead turret components. Once interior assembly is completed it will be ready for a coat of Vallejo Surface Grey primer #74.601 and a base coat of Vallejo White 71.001 which has a satin, or semi-gloss appearance. All this work must be done before hand-painting interior items and continuing assembly of the exterior.

At the point I start painting the interior of M109A2 while the paint is drying, I will start assembly of the M109 L23 model. Since it will not have an interior kit both M109's should be ready for exterior paint about the same time. Both models will also have the same Friulmodel T-136 early style metal tracks.

Harold

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Thursday, June 25, 2020 11:35 AM

Harold: Great job there on the interior. I too have a love/hate relationship with resin. It looks so good when well done but some I've bought left something to be desired... 

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Wednesday, July 1, 2020 5:36 PM

Gamera

Harold: Great job there on the interior. I too have a love/hate relationship with resin. It looks so good when well done but some I've bought left something to be desired... 

 

Thank you Gamera. I made some progress by completing the barrel, breech, and rammer sub-assemblies. This group of components are glued together as a drop-in assembly after painting the interior, but it's not glued to the turret deck yet. It is just sitting on the deck with the barrel travel lock supporting the weight.

One thing I started doing with this part of the interior is supporting certain items with a wire pin that are mechanically disadvantaged. For example, the hydraulic power pack behind the commander's seat, and the elevator for the commander's seat are pinned and glued to the turret deck. Also, the rammer assembly is pinned and glued to the breech frame rather than depending on just a glue joint between resin and styrene parts.

I am using wire pins for certain parts mainly because I have a lot of interior hand painting left to do and it's easy to knock something loose, or break it off while painting. If I only had airbrush painting to do I would not bother with the wire pins.

Harold

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Thursday, July 2, 2020 7:06 AM

Funny how i just spotted this thread, i have just been looking into getting an M109 and was about to post a question on it.

Some cracking work there harold, going to be following this build.

''I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so''

On the bench: Revell 1/72nd Type VIIc U-Boat

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Thursday, July 2, 2020 8:31 AM

That looks really good! 

And the pins are a good idea. I pin a lot of pewter figures aka drill a hole in the arm and then another in the body and stick a bit of paper clip wire in there just to give a little extra strength to the joint. 

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Tuesday, July 7, 2020 11:58 PM

Thank you Bish and Gamera. I have completed the Black Dog interior assembly work and ready to start painting. The first step will be to mask off openings and glue surfaces to prevent paint and overspray getting where is does not belong.

Then I will give the interior two coats of Vallejo Grey Surface primer #74.601 and two coats of Vallejo #71.001 White. With all the interior detail I need to use a two-step painting method to avoid paint build-up. First a light coat in all the tight corners and when the paint is dry a second general coat to cover the rest of the interior surface. The base coat of satin white will be the finish coat for most of the interior. The interior detail will require hand panting.

  

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Wednesday, July 8, 2020 12:17 AM

Geez, you must take nutrition through an IV.

You are a very impressive modeler, from someone who is not.

I love following the Sarge builds.

 

Bill

Modeling is an excuse to buy books

 

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Wednesday, July 8, 2020 3:32 AM

Thats some lovely work there harold. What do you think of the Balck Dog set. I have not used any of their stuff before and that set does look tempting.

''I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so''

On the bench: Revell 1/72nd Type VIIc U-Boat

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Wednesday, July 8, 2020 11:18 AM

You're doing a great job there Sarge! Yes

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Wednesday, July 8, 2020 12:04 PM

Bish

Thats some lovely work there harold. What do you think of the Balck Dog set. I have not used any of their stuff before and that set does look tempting.

 

Thank you Bill, Bish and Gamera.

Bill, I am not an experienced model builder like Bish and others in our Forum. But I learned in the Navy that I could read a technical manual and without instruction repair almost any piece of equipment in my engineering space. I think that same skill helps in model building, because modeling, the kind we do requires both technical skill and artistic ability.

Bish, I wish I could recommend this Black Dog Kit, but it has some problems and if I did recommend it, it would be with a caution. There are specific issues that I can point out, but first I think it's important to decide how much repair and clean up you are willing to tolerate? I have spent one to two hours almost every day since I started, which is about 50 to 70 hours on the interior.

I have built five different resin kits in the past three years from five different manufactures and while Black Dog's workmanship is not the worst, it is also not the best. This kit sells for $55.00 to $75.00 USD and has over a hundred pieces. I started this kit on May 15th and its now July 8th, so it's taken me nearly two months (7-weeks) to get to the place where I'm ready to paint the interior.

Harold

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Thursday, July 9, 2020 2:13 AM

Thanks Harold, that does sound like a lot of work. But the result does seem to be paying off. Would be nice to have this opened up, i had to close my AS90 as there was nothing inside and no AM for it.

I'll decide when i come to getting the kit.

''I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so''

On the bench: Revell 1/72nd Type VIIc U-Boat

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Thursday, July 9, 2020 3:43 PM

Bish, if you decide to go ahead with the Black Dog interior kit, please let me give you a list of issues I encountered, so you don't make the mistakes I made.

Harold

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Thursday, July 9, 2020 4:13 PM

It is July 18th and my last progress report was July 7th, so I think it is time for an update. I have completed applying Vallejo Surface Primer to the interior and the exterior of the barrel assembly. The next step will be Vallejo White as a base coat for the interior. The part of the barrel assembly that will not be seen on the exterior will be white the rest will remain in primer until I am ready for exterior paint.

When the interior white base coat is dry it will be ready for hand painting details like the seats, gages, levers, and such which takes me some time because I am not very experienced with a paint brush. After the interior detail is completed the exterior assembly can begin again.

Harold

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Thursday, July 30, 2020 2:48 PM

I completed the interior base coat of Vallejo 71.001 White and ready to start hand panting the interior details. However, I run into a problem deciding what color certain items should be painted. In photograph #1, #2 and #3 it is difficult to tell which parts are White and which are grey primer, but everything inside the turret in photograph #1 is white, only the barrel assembly and ammunition storage is grey primer.

The only reference pictures I have for interior color are photograph #6 and #7 below and unfortunately, they are black and white. I have looked at several interior videos of M109A6 Paladin on YouTube, but it's hard to determine what might have changed in 20-years since M109A2. I ordered Royal Model Anti-Skid Tread Plate made of photo-etched brass to put on the floor, see #9 below. I will make a paper template to fit the existing floor layout, paint the material and glue it in place.  It will be painted with Vallejo 71.315 Tyre Black.

I believe the interior color pallete is mainly white, black, red, and olive drab with possibly a few yellow items. If anyone has colored pictures of an M109A2 I would greatly appeciate your help. Thank you.

Harold

#1

#2

#3

#4

#5

#6

#7

#8

#9

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Thursday, July 30, 2020 2:59 PM

Some nice work there Harold, that interiour is coming along very well. And nice ref pics.

And yes, that would be much appreciated as i would deffinetly consider the Blackdog set.

''I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so''

On the bench: Revell 1/72nd Type VIIc U-Boat

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Thursday, July 30, 2020 2:59 PM

Sergeant

 

I believe the interior color pallete is mainly white, black, and red with possibly a few yellow items. If anyone has colored pictures of an M109A2 I would greatly appeciate your help. Thank you.

Harold

 

I do not remember anything in the Army having yellow factory based paint aside from yellow striping and stenciling on various ordnance- ammo cans, grenades, missiles, etc. Data placards were usually black with the bare metal or white as the wording/lettering. Except for some sort of warning which was usually in red, such as the placard for the voltage cable on the active IR drivers periscope. The only other yellow paint that I recall being used was on Jerry cans used for diesel fuel.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Thursday, July 30, 2020 4:21 PM

Thank you Bish and Carlos.

Bish

Some nice work there Harold, that interiour is coming along very well. And nice ref pics.

And yes, that would be much appreciated as i would deffinetly consider the Blackdog set.

 

Bish if you decide to go with the Black Dog interior, I have one important change I would like to suggest. The foundation that everything on the lower level of the interior sits on depends on a large photo-etched brass floor, please see photographs below. This floor is only supported by the suspension components in the lower hull and grey resin pieces that you can see in the photograph. Because of this uneven, unstable floor design I had to modify several resin parts to sit up straight including the interior walls.

If I built this interior again, I would use the photo-etched brass floor as a template and create a subfloor with sheet styrene or even a thin (.85mm) piece of bass wood you can buy for model aircraft. Glue the subfloor to the interior suspension components and then glue the photo-etched brass floor to the subfloor material. Do not use those gray resin pieces that are provided in the Black Dog kit. They will cause you trouble working around them and they do not exist in the actual M109A2 floor plan.

Note of caution: You must bend the photo-etched brass floor very slightly to get it in place and sit flat because it is a tight fit. That's why I recommend gluing the subfloor down first and then gluing the photo-etched floor to the subfloor. This modification will give you a stable foundation to build on and eliminate the grey resin pieces; however, with added floor thickeness you may need to file down some taller component, but it will not require much, maybe .50mm at the most.

Harold

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Thursday, July 30, 2020 4:30 PM

Thanks Harold, thats a great heads up. I'll be sure to save the page so i can refer back to it.

''I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so''

On the bench: Revell 1/72nd Type VIIc U-Boat

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Valrico, FL
Posted by HeavyArty on Thursday, July 30, 2020 5:40 PM

Looking good.  As to color, about 90% is white and no primer gray inside.  The rest is a gunmetal breech, red halon extingisher bottles, black on rubber coated items, and black/white stenciling. Some pics.

The green cylinder in the middle of the front wall is a personnel heater.

Powder cans are dark green; rounds various colors depending on type (see below).

Dark Green - HE

Light Green - Smoke

Blue - Inert practice 

White - Illum

Grey - Chemical (No longer used)

...eliminate the grey resin pieces...

If you mean the six pieces in the crew area and two more in the driver's area coming off the sides of the hull and attaching to the floor, they are required as they are part of the torsion bars and present on all M109s.

Hope that helps.

Gino P. Quintiliani - Field Artillery - The KING of BATTLE!!!

Check out my Gallery: http://smg.photobuck...v231/HeavyArty/?

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Thursday, July 30, 2020 6:55 PM

HeavyArty

Looking good.  As to color, about 90% is white and no primer gray inside.  The rest is a gunmetal breech, red halon extingisher bottles, black on rubber coated items, and black/white stenciling. Some pics.

The green cylinder in the middle of the front wall is a personnel heater.

Powder cans are dark green; rounds various colors depending on type (see below).

Dark Green - HE

Light Green - Smoke

Blue - Inert practice 

White - Illum

Grey - Chemical (No longer used)

 

 
...eliminate the grey resin pieces...

 

If you mean the six pieces in the crew area and two more in the driver's area coming off the sides of the hull and attaching to the floor, they are required as they are part of the torsion bars and present on all M109s.

Hope that helps.

 

Thank you Gino, these are excellent reference pictures. Regarding those pieces coming off the sides of the hull, I could not find them shown or mentioned in the M109 operator's manual. So I mistakenly thought they were something Black Dog created to secure the photo-etched floor.

Here is the reference I used for that conclusion, you will notice there is a small elbow like feature that appears to be welded to the side of the hull and the floor. It does not compare in size or shape to the resin pieces in the kit. But if they are part of the floor plan then they should be used.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50066878757_0417cebeca_b.jpg

Harold

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Valrico, FL
Posted by HeavyArty on Thursday, July 30, 2020 8:24 PM

You can see the torsion bar blocks/ends in the below pic of a Dutch M109A2, which has a different powder storage sytem down the sides of the hull.

Gino P. Quintiliani - Field Artillery - The KING of BATTLE!!!

Check out my Gallery: http://smg.photobuck...v231/HeavyArty/?

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Thursday, July 30, 2020 10:13 PM

HeavyArty

You can see the torsion bar blocks/ends in the below pic of a Dutch M109A2, which has a different powder storage sytem down the sides of the hull.

 

Sure enough, the real thing is a lot bigger than the illustration in the manual. I can see how Black Dog intended to use the torsion bar blocks to help secure the photo-etched floor in their kit which is not a bad idea except on the right side where the two air cleans are located.

The two large air cleaner cabinets cannot sit flat on the floor because there is a torsion bar block right underneath them. I moved the bulkhead behind the cabinets out to the very edge of the photo-etched floor and there was just no way to get by them, so I notched the bottom of the cabinets to get them to sit straight.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50170773431_64a9a3e292_b.jpg

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Thursday, July 30, 2020 10:37 PM

I’d love to have a few of these for my yard... 

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Friday, July 31, 2020 8:24 AM

I know nothing about this but it looks good Harold! I may be ignorant but I can still supply moral support!!! 

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    September 2018
  • From: Vancouver, Washington USA
Posted by Sergeant on Friday, July 31, 2020 4:57 PM

HeavyArty

Powder cans are dark green; rounds various colors depending on type (see below).

Dark Green - HE

Light Green - Smoke

Blue - Inert practice 

White - Illum

 

 

 

Thank you Gino and Carlos for your help and willingness to share your knowledge. Gamera, I am glad to have you back on the Forum you were missed.

Gino: I have capacity for 34 projectiles, 22 in the rear ammunition storage box, 5 on each side of the deck near the rear door and 2 in front of the air cleaners on the right front side of the crew compartment.

I am guessing, but it seems reasonable to assume there would be some quantity of HE, smoke, inert and illumination ammunition on board and addition ammunition would be supplied by truck or FAASV. Is there a standard practice for storing ammunition, in other words so many of one type in the rear storage box?

Harold

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Valrico, FL
Posted by HeavyArty on Friday, July 31, 2020 7:28 PM

There is no "standard" ammo load per say.  It is really based on what you expect to fire for upcoming missions.  Illum and smoke are usually stored upright since they have semi-solid substances inside and you don't want it settling to one side or the other.  This would make the round unstable in flight.  Also, the inert rounds are not usually carried except at a practice range that doesn't allow live rounds.  They are not "war shots" and not carried in combat.  Usually, you carry a heavier mix of HE over the others.  So you can mix them however you want.

Gino P. Quintiliani - Field Artillery - The KING of BATTLE!!!

Check out my Gallery: http://smg.photobuck...v231/HeavyArty/?

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Saturday, August 1, 2020 12:08 AM

Ok, I’m going off foggy memories now, but DPCAM and FASCAM rounds, do they look the same as HE rounds? 

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Valrico, FL
Posted by HeavyArty on Saturday, August 1, 2020 7:28 AM

stikpusher

Ok, I’m going off foggy memories now, but DPCAM and FASCAM rounds, do they look the same as HE rounds? 

Yup, good memory.  They too are green w/just different markings to denote them.  All HE-type blasting rounds are green.

 

Gino P. Quintiliani - Field Artillery - The KING of BATTLE!!!

Check out my Gallery: http://smg.photobuck...v231/HeavyArty/?

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

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