stikpusher

That pack almost looks like the larger pack off of the British P37 web gear.

And, that fits in with the dude wwho used the British goggles as thet fit better, too, sort of thinking.

What I know about Italian LBE would fit in a thimble and leave room for a fingertip.

Shared knowledge is increased knowledge.

CapnMac82

 

 

Bish

i think thats a German issue back pack.

 

 

Hmm, an Alpine or Bergetruppen, perhaps?  I have this memory that the Tournister had a fur-covered flap, and thin-ish leather straps.  And not what, in photos seems to be a fabric bag with fabric straps.

I'm running off memory here, and memories can be quite faulty, so I could be clean wrong.

Just one more of those historical inconsistencies that vex, like solid letters and outlined letters.  Or whether Arizona was blue or gray on 7DEC41 o_O 

Or just what color Dunkelgelb really was

 

Its not a Gebirgsjäger ruck. Those have two or three external pockets, dpepenting upon the type. That pack almost looks like the larger pack off of the British P37 web gear. I have no idea as to any Italian field gear of that sort.

Bish

i think thats a German issue back pack.

Hmm, an Alpine or Bergetruppen, perhaps?  I have this memory that the Tournister had a fur-covered flap, and thin-ish leather straps.  And not what, in photos seems to be a fabric bag with fabric straps.

I'm running off memory here, and memories can be quite faulty, so I could be clean wrong.

Just one more of those historical inconsistencies that vex, like solid letters and outlined letters.  Or whether Arizona was blue or gray on 7DEC41 o_O 

Or just what color Dunkelgelb really was

Frankenpanzer

Bish's first and second photo are of a sequence of shots. That is not a continental Field Gray uniform, that is a new issue tropical uniform that just hasn't faded yet. 

 

Greif's greatest mystery though, why is the name in white outline on one side and red filled inside the white on the other?

 

That is an odd one and something i think many modelers miss. But Stik's photo's show it perfectly.

Mac, i am not 100% sure, but i think thats a German issue back pack.

Bish's first and second photo are of a sequence of shots. That is not a continental Field Gray uniform, that is a new issue tropical uniform that just hasn't faded yet. 

Greif's greatest mystery though, why is the name in white outline on one side and red filled inside the white on the other?

Bish's second photo is fascinating on several levels.  Like domparing the dark of the overhang, or of the Feldgrau uniform, compared to the back of the gun shield.

Mind, there the vexing question of that bag which is seen so often on Greif's port side.

It's not a "bread bag" as the straps are too long.  Which makes a perons wonder if it's British or Italian kit.

Greif is a stark contrast to Patton's staff car.  If eerily similar in some ways.

This thread is far from "serious". It is up to the individual modeler to decide how in depth they wish to go.

In fact, this thread is a good start as reference for beginners. 

A gold Rommel's Rod though, now that's a statement.

Gamera

WHAT!?! It wasn't bright gold with chrome hubcaps??? 

Sorry guys, this conversation is getting waaaay too serious. It needs a little levity! 

 

WHAT!?! It wasn't bright gold with chrome hubcaps??? 

Sorry guys, this conversation is getting waaaay too serious. It needs a little levity! 

CharleyGnarlyP290

 

 

Frankenpanzer

Greif was originally Dark Gray. The desert color used is RAL 8000 which was sprayed over 2/3 of the vehicle. The remaining 1/3 was supposed to be RAL 7008, however with shortages of paint, it appears the 7008 was never applied.

RAL 8000 is in actuallity quite a dark color. That was the plan, the darker color wouldn't look so dark in the intense sunlight and allow better concealment.

Google "Bovington Tiger" for a good color reference of RAL 8000/7008. Tamiya Desert Yellow is not correct out of the bottle. If used out of the bottle as RAL 8000, don't lighten it at all. It can be used though, as it is the closest unaltered Tamiya color.  

Other manufacturers offer more correct RAL shades. 

I only use Tamiya mixes, based on Starmer's research, for my RAL Tropen colors.  

 

 

 

 

 

Is there somewhere I can go to see these mixes you speak of? I'm a Tamiya paint mixing fool for RLM colors and I don't mind mixing at all... especially since I can't find the two Tamiya DAK colors I mentioned above.

As for what manufacturers make good shades of these colors, who do you recommend? If there was something that one could use Tamiya X-20A to mix with and have no more odor than Tmiya, I am open to trying them out.

 

I cannot immediately find my reference however, 

RAL 8000 is a 50/50 mix of Dark Yellow XF-60 and Flat Earth XF-52. To that add drops of Yellow Green, XF-4 until you get a golden brown color with a twinge of green. 

RAL 7008 is Tamiya Khaki-XF-49 with a few drops of Tamiya OD XF-62. To that I add some drops of Yellow Green and Medium Gray XF-20 until I get a khaki green color that, if viewed alone, is slightly gray. The two colors should be close in tonal value, meaning there is little contrast between them. That is why two colors are hard to discern in period B/W photos. Add dust to that and for decades no one realized there were two colors. 

I always use Mr Color Thinner or Mr Color Leveling Thinner with my Tamiya paints. My go to after that is Tamiya Lacquer Thinner.

I'm living in a really dry area and those give me my best results. XF-20a allows the paint to dry too fast here in the desert. 

As far as alternatives to Tamiya, I have used the Lifecolor sets with mixed results. The colors are accurate. They never want to spray tight patterns for me using their thinner. I never used any other thinner with them as I could get by with what I had. 

MM Enamels were pretty good in the RAL 8000/7008 combo. Their RAL 8020 was ok accuracy wise but the 7027 was way off the mark. 7027 is a pale gray green not a pale gray brown. It is a shame the colors were discontinued.

I have not used anything else except MMP and I don't like them at all. Accuracy is "off" as far as I'm concerned and again, they don't perform well for me here in a dry climate. 

Bish

Right, i'll try this image again.

 

Great phot, and interesting question about the color on the back of the shield. It could be grey, and would certainly add another interesting bit to the overall project.

Frankenpanzer

Greif was originally Dark Gray. The desert color used is RAL 8000 which was sprayed over 2/3 of the vehicle. The remaining 1/3 was supposed to be RAL 7008, however with shortages of paint, it appears the 7008 was never applied.

RAL 8000 is in actuallity quite a dark color. That was the plan, the darker color wouldn't look so dark in the intense sunlight and allow better concealment.

Google "Bovington Tiger" for a good color reference of RAL 8000/7008. Tamiya Desert Yellow is not correct out of the bottle. If used out of the bottle as RAL 8000, don't lighten it at all. It can be used though, as it is the closest unaltered Tamiya color.  

Other manufacturers offer more correct RAL shades. 

I only use Tamiya mixes, based on Starmer's research, for my RAL Tropen colors.  

 

Is there somewhere I can go to see these mixes you speak of? I'm a Tamiya paint mixing fool for RLM colors and I don't mind mixing at all... especially since I can't find the two Tamiya DAK colors I mentioned above.

As for what manufacturers make good shades of these colors, who do you recommend? If there was something that one could use Tamiya X-20A to mix with and have no more odor than Tmiya, I am open to trying them out.

Greif was originally Dark Gray. The desert color used is RAL 8000 which was sprayed over 2/3 of the vehicle. The remaining 1/3 was supposed to be RAL 7008, however with shortages of paint, it appears the 7008 was never applied.

RAL 8000 is in actuallity quite a dark color. That was the plan, the darker color wouldn't look so dark in the intense sunlight and allow better concealment.

Google "Bovington Tiger" for a good color reference of RAL 8000/7008. Tamiya Desert Yellow is not correct out of the bottle. If used out of the bottle as RAL 8000, don't lighten it at all. It can be used though, as it is the closest unaltered Tamiya color.  

Other manufacturers offer more correct RAL shades. 

I only use Tamiya mixes, based on Starmer's research, for my RAL Tropen colors.  

Right, i'll try this image again.

stikpusher

The photos of Greif are dated 1942 in the Bundesarchiv, so I’d suggest XF-93, the 1942 color.

 

Not sure i would agree with that. If the darker colour is indeed Pz Grey, thats means it was an early arrival in Africa. Being a Corps HQ vehicle, it would have a longer life expectancy that one with a front line fighting unit. I'm not sure what the Tamiya colours are for the 1941 colours, but going off what Charley posted above, it would be the XF-92, with a good cover of dust and mud.

The photos of Greif are dated 1942 in the Bundesarchiv, so I’d suggest XF-93, the 1942 color.

I have just discovered that Tamiya now has two newish colors for DAK vehicles:XF-92 DAK 41, RAL8000; and XF-93 DAK 42, RAL8020. Would either of those be appropriate? Like the XF-93?

If we really want to wade in, here is what Mr Bruce Culver, author of the Panzer Colors series has to say;

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/pz-iii-g-afrika-paint-colour-s-t317279-s30.html

Be sure to download his Word doc. listed below his statements, some nice war-time color shots to be found.

Ixion

Don't shoot the messenger, but here is the other side of the coin;

Remember, this is Ron Volstad's work here, just saying...

This has been thoroughly debated on other forums over the years. As best as known, there is no definitive answer, no interior shots, no overall consensus.

FWIW, I'm actually in the Gelbbraun over Schwarzgrau crowd, (at least tentatively), due to the aforementioned high contrast issues and the Jerrycan shade similarity. What evidence did Mr Volstad have to break the other way? Surely he expended a considerable amount of time researching the subject before committing to this scheme, not merely done on a whim. Others have choosen this scheme as well...

 

Well, the left side photo that I posted above sure shows lighter contrast between the two colors. And therefore supports Mr Volstad’s take for box art. 

Isn't imagery interpretation fun?

Don't shoot the messenger, but here is the other side of the coin;

Remember, this is Ron Volstad's work here, just saying...

This has been thoroughly debated on other forums over the years. As best as known, there is no definitive answer, no interior shots, no overall consensus.

FWIW, I'm actually in the Gelbbraun over Schwarzgrau crowd, (at least tentatively), due to the aforementioned high contrast issues and the Jerrycan shade similarity. What evidence did Mr Volstad have to break the other way? Surely he expended a considerable amount of time researching the subject before committing to this scheme, not merely done on a whim. Others have choosen this scheme as well...

Looking at the rest of the shadows, I'd say that is shadow from the angled tube to his left.

About the same shade as the rest of the shadows

Bish

I can't imagine the interiour being re-painted no matters who's vehicle it was. Rommel doesn't strike me as the type to go in for BS.

This is the nearest i can find to a pic of the interiour.

But there is also this one, notice the back of the gun shield. Is that shoadow or a darker colour? IMHO, i think the latter.

 

 

Since Rommel is often pictured in the passenger seat it's more likely that's just some dust rubbed off by Rommel's left hand.

It's not so dark as to suggest anything but a very subtle color change and it's already been argued that they didn't use the later color scheme.

Hopefully it works this time.

Bish,

Your second photo won't work for me... it says forbidden or something.

All very good stuff about this color scheme. I, too, prescribe to the idea that Rommel wouldn't be too worried about the interior being sprayed to match the outside.

Lots of great info so far.

I can't imagine the interiour being re-painted no matters who's vehicle it was. Rommel doesn't strike me as the type to go in for BS.

This is the nearest i can find to a pic of the interiour.

But there is also this one, notice the back of the gun shield. Is that shoadow or a darker colour? IMHO, i think the latter.

For what it's worth, in German "ie" = "ee" and "ei" = "eye."

So this vehicle is "gryf" not "greef" (German for Griffen).

The other vexing question is whether the interior is Panzergrau or not.
Given that it was the big boss' ride might make a difference, even if the photo evidence suggest the outside was left to weather despite being the CG's ride.

Would love to see a WIP on this; the only one I ever built was the ancient old Nitto version, long, long ago (and depicted a rotund Rommel more built like Goering).

Yeah, that's what I meant. So desert yellow over panzer grey then? 

Too bad we can't tell for sure.

Either way it makes for a unique paint scheme.

Bish

The contrast between the darker and lighter colours looks to stark to me to be the 2 colour dersert scheme.  

Agreed...and look at the top Jerry can the right side view. Darker can, I would say is Panzer Gray, and matches the shade of the darker camo color in the pattern... The colors on the Bovington Tiger have far less contrast between them.