Tamiya Pre-Assembled

Good points!
But what if we buy a pre-built and throw another 100 hours or so of craftsmanship into it, turning it into a masterpiece? And then we win a contest with it.
Surely, that's creative craftsmanship.
Any ethical problems there?

QUOTE: Here's a philosophical question: at what point do we consider ourselves having "created" a model? We buy kits and aftermarket parts, assemble them, and paint them. Definitely an art, and talent is most definitely required. Absolutely no question there. But somebody (or team of somebodies) actually created, from scratch, that kit and all those aftermarket parts for us to assemble and paint. So, unless we totally scratchbuild, do we truly "create" our "own" models? Seems to me to be a matter of degrees only: Acceptable: Tamiya creates kit. We assemble and paint kit to our liking. No one complains. Unacceptable: Tamiya creates kit. Tamiya assembles and paints kit. We buy kit and do with it as we please, which may include detailing, weathering, etc. Fellow modelers look down their noses at us. "You didn't make that." There are only 2 steps added by the model company in the "unacceptable" scenario. Granted, for the modeler, those are very important steps, but from what point can we say we truly "made" a model?

It's all within the context of the hobby. This hobby involves obtaining the kits provided unassembled by model companies and assembling and painting those pieces into the vehicle it is supposed to represent, doing some conversion if you like, etc. That's what modelers do. Of course, people who scratchbuild well deserve lots of respect -- scratchbuilding is in some ways almost a hobby unto itself.

Basically speaking, though, you can judge the skills of a scale modeler by how well he or she builds the pieces and makes the vehicle look accurate by applying paint and by doing necessary conversions.

There's really no "looking down noses" involved here. Simply put, if you want to judge the skills of someone who is active in a hobby, you look at what the basic element of craftsmanship in the hobby is, and proceed from there. Buying Pre-Assembleds is not a hobby, as all it involves is spending money -- no craftsmanship is involved. And I, for one, would certainly never say that modeling doesn't involve craftsmanship just because you didn't create the model completely from scratch, by carving it out of ivory or something (and even then, you didn't MAKE the ivory -- d'oh!).

Hey betiobob, actually the yearly IPMS show here does not have an Out Of the Box catorgory, and the models entered are compared to other models entered in that class (i.e. German, US/Allied, etc.) There is no catorgory of experience either. Unlike AMPS which is based on a standard. Don't get me wrong I find nothing wrong with building straight out of the box, especially with a some of the newer Tamiya kits.

Issah, I hope you don't mind, but I started a topic in the "general modeling" forum based on my post .
It's getting some very interesting responses!
But thanks goes to you for starting it.

J-Hulk has the perspective I was thinking when writing this topic.

I don't think there's any real danger of someone plunking one of those suckers down on a contest table as is and walking away with a trophy. As nice as they may be, it'd still take many an hour to bring them up to contest-winning level.

Here's a philosophical question: at what point do we consider ourselves having "created" a model? We buy kits and aftermarket parts, assemble them, and paint them. Definitely an art, and talent is most definitely required. Absolutely no question there.

But somebody (or team of somebodies) actually created, from scratch, that kit and all those aftermarket parts for us to assemble and paint.

So, unless we totally scratchbuild, do we truly "create" our "own" models? Seems to me to be a matter of degrees only:
Acceptable: Tamiya creates kit. We assemble and paint kit to our liking. No one complains.
Unacceptable: Tamiya creates kit. Tamiya assembles and paints kit. We buy kit and do with it as we please, which may include detailing, weathering, etc. Fellow modelers look down their noses at us. "You didn't make that."

There are only 2 steps added by the model company in the "unacceptable" scenario. Granted, for the modeler, those are very important steps, but from what point can we say we truly "made" a model?

Just for the record, I'm personally not interested at all in buying built-ups. But I wouldn't begrudge anyone from buying one, or selling one.
Nor am I a scratchbuilder! Just a normal, happy kit-builder.

I do worry about the kids, though...with all the die-cast and pre-built kits out there, why should they bother building? Sure, we love it, but for a beginner...

Quote: Actually most IPMS model shows, etc.. will not even consider a model that does not have some sort of extra detail


I belong to IPMS and every contest I've attended has Out-of-the Box catagories for each subject. If any IPMS clubs are not allowing OOB
models in their contests they are not promoting the hobby properly and should be called on the carpet for committing this grave error of judgement.

QUOTE: Most of us wouldn't be very proud and would never enter a model we didn't build. There are plenty of people that would be though, Just go to any car/bike show and see how many times owner and builder are the same person.

There's a difference, though. The point of scale modeling is the creation -- making the thing look that way. I will happily hire someone to paint my house for me, and then accept the accolades for a nice-looking home. I would never do that with a model, as the point of the hobby is the building, not just owning a pretty model.

those things are kinda toy looking if you ask me? besides, you can easily tell if someone put in a ton of hours working on the kit and comparing it to those they don't stand a chance!

A pre-assembled model will never be bought by any serious modeller or modeller who enters shows. Also, I agree with you guys, those look to sqeaky clean, and they will never win any respectable show. Actually most IPMS model shows, etc.. will not even consider a model that does not have some sort of extra detail (i.e. brass, track links, etc.) I live on Long Island and the regional show here does not even consider a Tamiya kit built straight out of the box to be worthy of placement. The newer Tamiya kits (like the T-55) are so beautifully crafted that building it straight of the box will result in a quality model. But those kits always lack that of a kit that has aftermarket detail.

Rob

Funnily enough I happened to see them yesterday at one of the Netherlands' seaside resorts (don't ask me why..). They look waaaaaay to clean and very toy-ish compared to 'the real' builds. You can compare them to those factory built just stick on the wings kind of planes you can get at airports and duty free.. Then again, there's no law against dirtying them up a bit.

QUOTE: Last but not least, even if someone is able to hoodwink the judges and win a prize, so what? How proud would you be of winning an award in that way?

Most of us wouldn't be very proud and would never enter a model we didn't build. There are plenty of people that would be though, Just go to any car/bike show and see how many times owner and builder are the same person.

QUOTE: Let's remember the fun of this is the doing of it, swearing at the tiny piece that just fell in the shag carpeting, and then being proud of the finished product -- something you did. That's reward in and of itself.

This is why most of the best models will never see a show. When you do something to the best of your ability and it turns out nice you don't need someone else's approval (though it's nice to get an "atta boy"). This is what it's all about.

Here's a url for thse who want to get right to them:

http://www.tamiya.com/english/show0305/broadcast_sp.htm

I think it's good. It will hopefully increase sales for the company, and that means more T-55-quality kits for us. Japanese companies are in very, very hard times right now, and I am not reluctant to worry about the health of even the big guys in our hobby like Tamiya and Hasegawa.

Anyway, take a look at them. They are nice neat jobs but are really pretty superficial in overall quality. Any quality modeler would be able to turn something out fairly rapidly that would put these mass-produced fellas to shame.

And there's only so many of them, so we all will become fairly good at spotting the person trying to pass off Mr. Tamiya's work as his own.

Last but not least, even if someone is able to hoodwink the judges and win a prize, so what? How proud would you be of winning an award in that way? Let's remember the fun of this is the doing of it, swearing at the tiny piece that just fell in the shag carpeting, and then being proud of the finished product -- something you did. That's reward in and of itself.