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Applying a flat coat over Mig pigments

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  • Member since
    September 2006
  • From: Bethlehem PA
Posted by the Baron on Tuesday, November 5, 2019 11:56 AM

"Ooooh, de mummy walks!"

I wonder how many of the people who posted are still active here.

I know the Doog isn't; he's facing some challenges external to the forum.  I don't know about the others.

The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen.

 

 

  • Member since
    February 2011
Posted by timw on Tuesday, November 5, 2019 10:59 AM

cwalker3
I'm not a fan of Future either. I've had several problems with it and now just use Testor's Gloss Kote before applying decals. I have also found, like MR, that dull kote tends to tone down the effect of Mig pigments. But I'm more a fan of subtle weathering so the effects I've gotten have been good enough for me.

I'm with you.  I never, ever use future on anything apart from clear cockpit/canopy bits.

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Texas
Posted by wbill76 on Saturday, April 5, 2008 11:40 AM

 panzer88 wrote:
I used "model master acryl" flat clear acryl. 

Can't help you much there personally, perhaps others more familiar with this product can. My guess would be that it wasn't thoroughly mixed before spraying/applying and that produced the fogging. Pure speculation only though.

Doog,

No worries, I'll add my comments to MR's "Back to the Future" thread. Wink [;)]

  • Member since
    January 2007
Posted by the doog on Saturday, April 5, 2008 1:30 AM

wbill76, I AM guilty of generalizing, I admit! Whistling [:-^]  And I can see how you would want a barrier using enamels; I forgot that you use them exclusively; after all, not many guys on this site use mostly enamels as far as I have heard?

My "beef", if it is really that, is with the misconception that seems to exist that you need a barrier coat with acrylics. I have used many different types, and have never had a problem with paint lift or degradation when applying washes or weathering--with the exception of the Nomad beater I'm doing, but that was caused by scrubbing the finish with a stiff-bristled brush. 

On the acrylic models I have seen, the Future just imparts such a high-gloss to the model that it loks unnatural as hell to me, and I just think that its use in those applications is unnecessary and over-promoted. I consider it a "modeling myth" --like Baking Soda snow--that can of course be used for many "spot" applications, but the sealing of an entire armor model just to put on a decal --especiallly on a acrylic painted model-- is just unnecessary.

Like I said--I knew I would catch hell for it! Whistling [:-^] I'm guilty!! Sorry for being dogmatic--I hate when I do that but am humble enough to say I was over-generalizing due to my own bias! Black Eye [B)]

 And just to prove to you how stupid I am, I was wrong about the model panzer88 had painted anyway!  Banged Head [banghead] Smile,Wink, & Grin [swg]

  • Member since
    May 2006
  • From: Queensbury,NY
Posted by panzer88 on Saturday, April 5, 2008 1:07 AM
I used "model master acryl" flat clear acryl. 

     

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Texas
Posted by wbill76 on Friday, April 4, 2008 9:39 PM

 panzer88 wrote:
Well I got a coat of "flat" on without disturbing the weathering, but my guinea pig model has a white haze that I can't get rid of. Then I realized that this was the wrong model to try this out on, please any help for this issue would be greatly appreciated. I have a lot of time and effort put into this one.

Ok, have to ask a basic question here. When you say "flat", do you mean Tamiya Flat? If so, this is not meant to be a clear lacquer but is rather a flattening agent meant to be added to paint and if sprayed or applied pure, will dry as a whitish haze/fog. If you used something else, such as Testor's Flat/Dullcoat, if it wasn't mixed thoroughly before spraying, the powder that produces the "flat" could've come out of suspension and produced the fogging. Hard to say without more information.

For what it's worth and not to hijack the thread with a discussion on the use of Future, I've used Future as a sealing coat on my builds because of the need to protect enamel undercoats with an acrylic barrier. As a result, for me, it's an essential step that must be done and I caution against blanket statements saying it should never be used or is 100% unnecessary. I've NEVER had a problem with it fogging as a coat on a kit when it's applied without mixing with something else such as Tamiya Flat or other agents, sprayed through a clean AB,  and allowed to air dry. Usually I allow it to sit for a couple of hours tops before working with it further. This is, after all, floor polish that's meant to be walked on after it's dry, so it doesn't require 24-hour or longer cure time in my experience. Granted, I live in a fairly dry/low-humidity environment so others experience may vary. There have been occasions when I've had spots fog slightly when applying decals due to excess use of water and/or setting solution and it reacting with the Future, but this is easily corrected by using a q-tip moistened with Windex to remove the fogging and spraying the sealing coat of Future over the decals prior to weathering as a normal practice. Is Future necessary as a dogmatic iron rule? No. Can it yield benefits when used properly and depending on the paint/finish/materials being used? Yes. I hate to see a technique that's valuable and used by many to be so adamantly renounced...as with anything in the hobby, there are different paths to the same end goal.  Just my My 2 cents [2c]

  • Member since
    May 2006
  • From: Queensbury,NY
Posted by panzer88 on Friday, April 4, 2008 9:05 PM
First off, thanks for all the help everyone has thrown my way. Thanks Doog for the extra input, greatly appreciated. No "future" used on this kit, that has the white haze. The kit that had the bubbley/lifting problem with the paint, the Future was on for more than 2 full days drying. Does it take longer than a few days for future to dry/cure? No not humid here, before you ask. I should clarify, the paint wasn't actually bubbling but rather as Doog said "lifting". I noticed on the couple of models that I've used vallejo paint on, the finish is rather fragile compared to tamiya and model master paints.But the finish the vallejo paint does give is great.

     

  • Member since
    January 2007
Posted by the doog on Friday, April 4, 2008 7:56 PM

 

 panzer88 wrote:
Well I got a coat of "flat" on without disturbing the weathering, but my guinea pig model has a white haze that I can't get rid of. Then I realized that this was the wrong model to try this out on, please any help for this issue would be greatly appreciated. I have a lot of time and effort put into this one.
There you go--just one of the many reasons NOT to use "Future"-did you read my original post?--your Future coat was not fully "cured" and now it fogged. Sigh [sigh]

I'm not sure what you can do to save it; perhaps someone else would know?

This is a common problem with Future. Banged Head [banghead]I will say it again, and recommend once more that you realize that you don't need it!

BTW, what are you using for thinner?! It sounds like it's awfully strong!? I use regular mineral spirits, and never have a problem with paints lifting or "bubbling" (!YIKES!).

Lastly, NEVER "WIPE" off ANY thinner!!!!!!!

N-E-V-E-R!!!

  • Member since
    May 2006
  • From: Queensbury,NY
Posted by panzer88 on Friday, April 4, 2008 7:32 PM
Well I got a coat of "flat" on without disturbing the weathering, but my guinea pig model has a white haze that I can't get rid of. Then I realized that this was the wrong model to try this out on, please any help for this issue would be greatly appreciated. I have a lot of time and effort put into this one.

     

  • Member since
    May 2006
  • From: Queensbury,NY
Posted by panzer88 on Friday, April 4, 2008 7:28 PM
The "close call" that I had was a bad reaction with the paint when applying a wash/filter. I think on a couple of spots where the future coat was too thin or not covered the wash reacted with the paint. I used vallejo paints on this particular build, usually use tamiya or model master and haven't had any problems, even without a coat of future. The paint reacted with the thinner/ artist oil paint wash/filter, started to bubble up. I didn't know what was happening at first so I tried wiping off what appeared to be clumps of excess wash/ maybe dust, but had a horrifying discovery the paint was lifting off. I immediately stopped, and did not touch the other affected areas hoping for the best, that's when the modelling gods took pity on me. When the thinner evaporated the affected areas somehow settled down and my day was saved, no heart attack today. All those sacrificial pieces of model paid to the carpet monster must of paid off.Big Smile [:D]

     

  • Member since
    August 2004
  • From: Forest Hill, Maryland
Posted by cwalker3 on Friday, April 4, 2008 4:03 PM
I'm not a fan of Future either. I've had several problems with it and now just use Testor's Gloss Kote before applying decals. I have also found, like MR, that dull kote tends to tone down the effect of Mig pigments. But I'm more a fan of subtle weathering so the effects I've gotten have been good enough for me.

Cary

 


WJM
  • Member since
    February 2008
Posted by WJM on Friday, April 4, 2008 2:00 PM


  • Member since
    April 2006
  • From: LaValle, Wisconsin
Posted by Hermesminiatures on Friday, April 4, 2008 1:35 PM

I would agree with doog - I never, ever use straight Future (as a gloss coat), and rarely use clear coats at all, flat or gloss.

The only time you actually need to use an overcoat is to protect dry transfers from oil weathering, as they are very fragile - especially the dark colors.

It's always annoying when something turns glossy, but there's an easy fix that won't damage the pigments too much.

 

Mix 1 part Tamiya flat base with 5 parts Future floor polish, then thin that mix 50/50 with isopropyl alcohol (so it's thin enough to airbrush, otherwise it will splatter)

This will give you a thin, ultra-flat acrylic clear coat, that doesn't yellow with age, isn't thick and yucky like every lacquer clear coat is, and won't affect the pigments as much as lacquer (although very subtle effects will still probably disappear)

You MUST test this mix before applying it to your model (as you should with any clear coat). If there is too much Tamiya Flat Base in the mix, it will turn white and chalky, and if there's too much Future, it will turn glossy and darken the finish.

The Tamiya Flat Base has no pigment in it - it's simply a mixture that dries so flat it looks white. If you do get too much flat base in the mix and it turns white on your model, just hit it again with a properly mixed overcoat and the white will go away.

The really nice part about doing flat coats this way is that you can control the exact sheen by adding more Flat Base or more Future.

 

Once again, while this technique uses Future, it's not anywhere near the same sort of thing as using straight Future. I would agree with doog about that being less than ideal, and know from experience that gloss coats are totally uneccesary if you use decal setting solutions properly. 

Jonathan

For every modeling technique that works, I have three that don't.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 4, 2008 1:23 PM
In my last dio I used a lot of MiG pigs and then tried to seal them with a dusting of dullcoat...there was no disaster per say, but it did alter the look of the pigments from a dry, dusty appearance to a darker look that was not so "dusty looking"...I think a lot of the dust actually was blown off of the dio when it was applied...so in the end, I re-dusted it and am simple careful not to handle those areas with my fingers.  Anyway, if I do leave a fingerprint, all I have to do is some touch up dusting.  I don't think there is any way to seal them w/o altering their properties, as any sealer will "wet" the pigment...
  • Member since
    January 2007
Posted by the doog on Friday, April 4, 2008 11:08 AM

I know I'm gonna catch hell for this, but I would recommend--with all due respect to anyone who disagrees--to lay off the Future coat--it is not a necessary step in finishing, and anything you use it for--decals, sealing, etc,--can be done without it in a much easier and safe manner with regular modeling products without darkening and glossing the finish the way that Future does.

What kind of "close call" did you have?

BTW, I know that you can have issues with Future "frosting" if you don't let it dry well enough and try to seal it?

  • Member since
    May 2006
  • From: Queensbury,NY
Applying a flat coat over Mig pigments
Posted by panzer88 on Friday, April 4, 2008 10:56 AM
As the subject says, can you safely put a coat of flat over Mig pigments without it altering the finish? I made a bonehead move and forgot to put a cot of flat over my coat of future and now I have some spots with a glare/shine that I would like to get rid of or tone down. But I don't want to risk my entire model's finish just to tone those spots down, if I have to I will live with the shine. Any help in this matter will be gratefully appreciated. I've already had one close call with the paint/finsh, but the modelling gods felt pity on me and saved me from disaster.Approve [^]

     

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