HMS Surprise conversion--back on track

So, on the quarter galleries and transom, there are a number of tasks to be completed.  Ya gotta:

• Cut the window openings in the outer hull piece
• Cut a smaller set of windows in the inboard piece, so that there's a "reveal" around the window
• Lay in all the muntins (2 wide X 3 tall in the galleries, 3 X 3 in the transom)
• Build up all the assorted trim and frillery

• On the final piece, it would make sense to save the final dimensional trim to the very last.  It would su-u-u-u-ck to get the muntins and all that just right, only to realize you'd cut the piece too small.  So, note to self . . . 
• I missed the whole thing about having the "reveal" around the windows for added depth
• The angles aren't bad, but I wanted to do better.
• If you put a hidden strip of styrene at the top and bottom of the window frames, you don't have to bow the vertical muntins to glue them down.  Here's a pic that shows what I'm talking about:

Basic stuff, right?  But till you do it, you don't know.

For the quarter galleries, I then tried to do some work with a compass to set the sweep of the windows, and then run the angles down from that:

This doesn't look bad, but I had no way of telling if the angles and radii were correct, or if they just looked good to the eye.  I also worried a bit about being able to replicate this reliably on each side of the ship

So I tried messing around with a way of plotting all of this out (using PowerPoint, of all things), and I kind of like what I came up with.  This next image may take a second or so to resolve itself into coherence, but here you go:

So what I did here was to set out an array of radial lines, spaced to line up with Sumpter250's quarter gallery (I've cropped it very tightly here, since it feels weird to post someone else's image in my thread).  Then I laid in two ovals, sized to reflect the proper radius.

I did the same thing with the transom:

As you can see from the above pic, my next step was to print the image on clear labels, which I then carefully placed on styrene sheet:

Then I took my exacto and went to work:

I traced the window openings onto a thinner (.010") sheet, and cut just inside the lines:

Next up are the little columnar trim pieces that fit between each window (I'm blanking on the proper term for those little guys).

Charles

Here's one last picture.  Right before I left for work, I test fit a prototype for the "sill" that sits above the window opening:

Charles

I'm beginning the work on the further trim pieces for the transom.  I wanted to start with the balusters between the windows.  I'm using styrene strip for this, and I wanted to sandwich a .010 piece between two .020 pieces for the "capital" or top of the baluster.  The piece of .010 needed is only about 3x bigger than this comma right here , so cutting and placing eight of these seemed like a gloriously infuriating way to spend a couple of hours.  

I chose a different path.  I decided to cut half-inch or so strips of the .010 and glue them in between two long runs of the .020 x .020 strip.  It looks like this:

Now, all I have to do is trim each piece to size and angle, and I can place where I want, with a tiny drop of glue, using the .010 piece as a "handle."  Here's one, posing in place, not yet glued of course:

I figure once they're all in place, I'll just shave the handles off, and I'm done.

Charles

Charles,

This is looking good ! I hadn't had a chance to get to this, and see it from start to now. As for individual planks, I did a 40' cutter, in 1/64 scale, plank on frame, to lines I laid down. 27 frames, lofted, cut, and erected on the keel, the hull was planked with mahogany strips 1/32" X 3/32" as I recall. Each plank attached to each frame with a drawn, bamboo .040" dia.peg .

Total hull, and deck,build time, not including the original drawings, took over a year's time, then there were the spars and rigging, and a 17' Whitehall skiff" also plank on frame, that hangs at the stern davits.

My "Surprise", was a first at that style of ship. I tried to document that as well as I could here, in another thread. If any of that information can be used by you, feel free. If you want to copy those images for comparison to your build ? Feel free.

If anything I have done, helps someone else grow and improve, I will feel honored.

Thank you sir . . . you're a gentleman and a scholar on these matters.  I appreciate you stopping by, and I'm grateful for the permission to use your images if appropriate.  

One of the reasons I'm going into such laborious detail on my process is so that craftsmen such as yourself can easily spot areas where I can improve, and provide feedback . . . which is always welcome.

I've learned a great deal from following your work, along with others, and I'm enjoying the actual "doing" of the work, on my own, in a way that I can continue to learn and grow.

And I'm still having a blast . . . 

Charles

After I trimmed and placed the caps to all of the balusters, and removed the "handle" on each one, it looked like this:

Now I had to decide how I wanted to construct the main part of the baluster.  I had two basic notions in mind--to have a "hollow" part in the middle, where I could load some black paint as a contrast to the yellow; and, to try to go really thin.

Kinda like this:

So what I ended up doing is to "stand up" three pieces of .010 x .020 strip, so the that the .010 side is what you see, and I glued them in sort of a tuning fork formation (this'll all make sense here in a minute)

Once I had all of these, I chopped off the top at the correct angle for each of the eight top caps, and glued them in place.  THEN, I glued in a final piece of .010 strip at the bottom, and slid each of these pieces to the same relative height:

Now all I had to do was chop them uniformly at the bottom.  In the meantime, I had laid in all of the muntins in the backer piece:

And when you put it all together, it looks like this:

I'm ridiculously proud of this, particularly for what is my first serious attempt at scratchbuilding such a complex assembly.  I'm very interested in any feedback anyone is interested in providing.  I still have work to do on this piece and the quarter galleries . . . and I'm still having fun.

Charles

Charles, your transom looks superb. One particularly nice feature is the way the "vertical" sides of the windows radiate out from that point high above the taffrail.

I'm only worried about one thing - and my worry may be groundless. As you undoubtedly know, the transom is curved in every plane - including the horizontal one. You're going to have to make it "bulge" slightly. I hope the glue joints in the various parts don't pop loose when you do that.

The geometry of the quarter galleries is really complex. I understand it fairly well, I think, in the case of British ships, but I'm pretty sure the French used quite a different system. If I were you I'd gather all the reference material I could, and get a firm picture in my head of just what the things are supposed to look like before starting.

Are you familiar with the books of Jean Boudriot? He's the reigning authority on French eighteenth-century naval architecture. He's published a series of big, exquisitely illustrated books about various specific French warships - a brig, a frigate, a cutter, and four huge volumes on a ship of the line (Le Vaiseau de 74 Canons). One of them deals with the Venus, an 18-pounder frigate. I suspect that book would be invaluable to you. Unfortunately all the Boudriot books have several things in common: they're well-researched, beautifully illustrated, and extremely expensive. And most of them are out of print now. I bought the 74-gun ship volumes many years ago (in the original French; since then English translations have appeared, but since then I haven't been able to afford the other volumes. I'm lucky in that our university library has most of them. You might check the various used book dealers on the web (Barnes and Noble, Bookfinder.com, Al Libris), or see if your local library either has the frigate volume or can get it on Interlibrary Loan. I guarantee you'd enjoy it.

I found several copies on Bookfinder. Prepare to watch your eyes pop out when you see the prices: http://www.bookfinder.com/search/?ac=sl&st=sl&ref=bf_s2_a1_t11_11&qi=hQYRbNenwYoMR7wzTbqVd61O9oQ_1408986294_1:1999:8275&bq=author%3Dboudriot%252C%2520jean%253Bberti%252C%2520hubert%26title%3Dvenus%2520de%2520l%2527ingenieur%2520sane%252C%25201782%2520fregate%2520de%252018%2520monographie

One point many people miss is the connection between the design of the stern and the deck camber, and the connection between the deck camber and the angle of the sternpost. The big tiller that moves the rudder swings in a circle arc. It's pulled by the tiller ropes, which are wound around the barrel of the wheel. Simply yanking with a rope on one side of the tiller, while simultaneously letting out rope on the other side, doesn't work; the amount of rope running from the tiller to each side of the ship varies as the tiller swings through its arc. Designers figured that out in - probably - the late seventeenth century, when the wheel started to replace the whipstaff as the means of steering ships. The solution to the problem was to build a wood track, with pulleys at various points on it, for the tiller ropes to ride in. If the tiller ropes are following the arc in which the tiller swings, one tiller rope pays out at the same rate the other gets hauled in, and the wheel works properly. The most convenient and efficient way to mount that track arrangement is to fasten it to the undersides of the deck beams over the tiller. Since the deck is cambered, the track has to be tilted in order to conform to it. That tilt establishes the angle of the rudder post.

That was, at least, the general principle in British ships of the mid- to late eighteenth century. There were other ways to deal with the problem. I honestly don't know whether the French used the same system or not. But all that, of course, is irrelevant to a model that doesn't have below-decks detail.

Your model is going to be outstanding. I'm sure we all look forward to watching its progress.

Professor--

Thank you very much for the kind words, and I believe I can alleviate your fears.  In that final shot above, the two "layers" of the transom assembly are not glued together . . . they're simply laid atop each other (and slightly out of alignment, which I thank you for not mentioning ).

And I do plan to bulge the transom out a bit.  I stress-tested an earlier prototype of the muntin layer, and the styrene is "soft" enough that I can easily introduce the right curve.  Your information is very helpful as to where to go to find what the "right" curve is.  Additionally, the Lavery book has at least one drawing that represents the transom bulge, so I do have that as a reference.

My working plan is to identify the curve at the gun deck line, as well as the spar deck, and lay in pieces of styrene strip from quarter to quarter, shaped to match that line, that I'll glue up just under the two deck-lines.  Once those are in place, I'll glue up the inner layer first, and then lay the outer layer over that.  

That should provide plenty of stability to hold the curve.   

Thanks again, Professor . . . your counsel is appreciated.

Charles

Work is still progressing on the transom and quarter gallery work, though slowly.  I've been focusing on translating the curve/bulge of the transom into my model, and, while I've made progress, I'm at the point where I could use some advice from more experience members.

First, here's a  shot of a drawing from the Lavery/Hunt book, The Frigate Surprise.  To respect their copyrighted work, I've zoomed in pretty tight:

It was fairly easy to use a compass to capture and scale up the curve to my kit.  In the meantime, in looking at pictures of the HMS Surprise (Rose) used in the Aubrey/Maturin film, I noted some structural differences between it and the Lindberg kit.  First, here's a reprise of the (trimmed-down) kit piece:

Here's a look at the San Diego Surprise:

And, after looking and looking for months now, I finally found a shot from pretty much dead abaft:  

So, you'll notice that the assembly below the stern windows extends further out to each side, and the concave curve it exhibits is translated forward, to sit underneath the quarter galleries (just like crown moulding in a house).  Also, there are korbels (is the right tern in this instance?) underneath all of that, which also translate "around the corner" to ride underneath the quarter galleries.

I've been experimenting with how to best migrate all of this into my model, and after first thinking I would use a build-up and file approach, I've decided--at least for now--to lay in two pieces of sheet styrene to set the upper and lower curve, and then perhaps fill in.  Let me post a couple of shots, and then I'll ask my questions:

Here's what it looks like from underneath-ish:

From a bit more head-on:

You can see where I played around with building up from this angle, i.e., those two chunks of styrene strip.

So, my quick question is this--does this look like the right track?  If so, my main question is--what is best way to create the actual surface that sits between the two pieces of sheet styrene?  It will need to be curved in both the horizontal and vertical planes, and exhibit a slight but noticeable concave curve.  I'm tempted to just lay in Tamiya putty, and mold with a wet finger, just like caulking a tub, but I'm worried that the presence of so much solvent will just dissolve everything.  

I also have a few runs of Bluejacket's tiniest basswood strips, so I'm open to the notion of laying these in over a framework of some sort, but that may be too much of a muchness.

FYI, the corresponding surfaces underneath the quarter galleries will be fairly easy, I believe, since they're fundamentally straight.  I've already created a laminated unit using two pieces of sheet styrene glued up and taped around a pencil that I believe will answer admirably.  

Thoughts?  I'd love some help!

Charles

I will preface by saying I have never done this kind of work.

I fear you might run the risk of shrinking with putty as it dries if you use the quantity you would need for this job.

I would think you might want something a little sturdy based on the size of the gap and the shaping you are trying to do.  I would suggest cutting some arcs of fairly thick styrene and laying them flat against one another with CA.  Then simply sand them down to what you want (I would start with a grinder and then work with coarse to fine sanding once you are close).  I think it will give you a sturdier structure.  There is a 1/200 Nimitz scratchbuild thread in the ships section and that's kinda how the guy made his aircraft (it's in the earlier pages of the thread).

You coud also try a bit of a hybrid solution and mostly fill it with something solid (wood or styrene) and then use putty or even paintable caullk over itand use your finger like you mentioned.  If you opt for something like caulk (which should give a nice, smooth surface) I would recommend testing paint on some before you commit on the model.

You are doing a heck of a job, I can't wait to see this thing finished!  Good luck!

Groot

Groot--

I know the Nimitz thread very well, and I like your suggestion a lot.  You've reminded me of the way he made his RHIB, wiherein he took straight pieces of styrene rod, cut into small, mitered pieces to get the angles right.  I'm toying around with the notion of filling the gap that way--small straight pieces--and then finishing with a skim coat of putty to get the final, smooth shape.

Thanks for your comments and counsel!

Charles

Made a touch more progress tonight.  I decided to go with the hybrid approach suggested by RobGroot, above.  I also took a closer look at just how much of a concavity I needed to introduce, and realized it's much less than I had been carrying around in my head.  Fundamentally, it's a straight run, with a bit of a curve at the upper end.

So, not so much this:

And more like this:

This is a much easier line to create, and allows for a pretty straightforward assembly.  So, I slowly filled in the area with bits and bobs of styrene:

Then, I smeared on a dab or two of putty, some plastic cement at a couple of glue points, and laid on a thin strip of fairly precisely cut styrene in place:

I left a lip//overhang at the top, which will provide the upper bound/backing to the bit of curve I will create using a thin bead of putty:

Obviously, there is a ton of tune-up/finish work to be done, but I'm pleased with the overall shape and direction this is taking.  Here's what it looks like taped in place on my testbed Surprise Hull:

Thanks!

Charles

I've got my fingers crossed for you, looks like you're off to a good start!

Groot

Shaping up (literally) to being a very interesting project!

Evan

Rob and Evan--

Thanks for the kind, and encouraging, words!  I'm just taking it slow, and trying to make sure the pieces fit together in a pleasing way.  So far, so good . . .  

Charles

Tiny little update.  Still working on the stern assembly, and had a moment of terror, followed by a moment of serendipity.  

The moment of terror was similar to Professor Tilley's EEEEYOOWWW moment.  I was trying to laminate two thin styrene sheets into a curve for the bit of business that sits under the quarter gallery windows.  I had previously glued up a piece like this using plastic cement, and wasn't entirely happy with the way everything set up, so I thought I'd try some CA glue.  I clearly used too much (though I would have sworn I was being careful), and once I started rolling the second sheet around the first (and both around a pencil), it was like squeezing toothpaste out of a tube . . . next thing I knew, two fingers on my left hand were drenched in CA.

What a mess.  It took me most of the night, using Goo Gone and acetone, to get the majority off, and another day or so before I was completely free of the white crusties.

So, I spent some time cursing, of course, and in general trying to figure out a smart way to get this little curved piece that I'm after.  That's when serendipity kicked in.  I was moving some stuff around in a kitchen drawer when I noticed the white plastic bracket that holds some dividers in place:

Here's a better look at the curve:

How about that?  it's the exact curve I'm looking for.  So after some chopping and filing and sanding and shaping, I ended up with a couple of prototypes:

Here's what the starboard piece looks like held in place:

You know what?  It's gonna work just fine.  

Charles

Love it

I really enjoy going to Rite Aid when I'm really stumped by a scratchbuild challenge.

Need an elliptical dome? Plastic measuring spoon set!

Torpedoes for a coastal patrol Shackleton?

Four pack of roller ball pens.

Nicely played, Sir!

Admiral; ration that man some rum!

Thanks GM!  Bit by bit, I'm gathering the bits and pieces of this stern assembly . . . pretty soon here, I'll be able to start putting it all together.  

Inch by inch, mile by mile . . .

AFter experimenting with a couple/three prototypes, I finally nailed my technique, and have a port and starboard piece that should work just fine.

First, here's the reference photo I'm working from.  Interestingly, this photo shows a feature I had not noticed at first, namely that the assembly directly under the windows get slightly larger from aft to fore:

And here are the pieces, pretty much complete save for some final fit and finish shaping on the inboard side(s), and final filing on the aft ends to match up to the curve of the stern piece:

I also have a plan (which you can see the corner of in this photo) for how to build up the remaining pieces of "moulding" all the way down.  Those should be much easier, since I can easily use existing styrene stock.  The challenge I'm puzzling thru right now is getting the sequence right.

At the risk of being laborious, I'm pretty sure that I'm at the point where I need to actually put the two hull pieces together, since all of these angles and join lines will be dictated by how everything mates up to the stern portion of the hull.  

This will also force me to make final decisions on filling in the beakhead and fairing all of that work up.  I'm pretty confident of my plan there, fyi, and the test fits are solid and non-controversial thus far.  

So, if all goes according the plan, the next update should contain some of this work.

Thanks!

Charles

I haven't made recent comments, but I am enjoying your labor of love!  I am simply amazed by your work.  WOW!!

Bill Morrison

Thanks for the comments, Bill!  I needed that. 

I've spent the last few days trying to secure proper glue-points for all of these pieces I've been fabricating.  I'm learning the hard way that scratching out the perfect piece is only half the battle--you have to be able to glue the darn thing in place or it doesn't count!  

Anyway, it's all good, but it has been a slow-moving struggle to think all of this thru.  I have a handful of pics I'll post in the next day or so that show what I'm talking about.

Have a great weekend.

Charles

This update may end up being a little disorganized, but that's pretty symptomatic of what this stage of the project has been like.    I've been all over the map on getting the various scratch-built pieces pulled together into the stern assembly.

As I mentioned above, I've really had to move quite slowly in an effort to find a stable sequence in which to glue things together onto the hull.  If you've seen Apollo 13, with Tom Hanks, think in terms of the scenes where Gary Sinise is trying to find the startup sequence that doesn't result in a complete shutdown, due to their limited electrical resources.

For me, it has been just like that--what's the right sequence that won't result in complete shutdown, due to limited stability and glue points. 

So anyway, here are WIP shots.  The first thing I had to do was figure out a way to stabilize the (heavily modified) transom kit piece.  Since I had removed the kit quarter galleries, there was no longer a stabilizing gluing surface, so holding this piece securely in place was like trying to nail jello to the wall.  I tried all sorts of solutions--masking tape, spot-gluing, etc.--but nothing worked like I wanted it to.  So, I drilled a hole into the kit piece, pushed a pin through, and once it was in place, I tapped the pin to mark the right spot on the rudder mount underneath.  Drilled another hole, and NOW I had stability:

You can also see in this shot some temporary 'stops" to prevent the piece from yawing on its pivot pin.

I had previously glued the quarter gallery moulding pieces in on each side fyi, to help set the proper position of the kit piece:

I held everything together with masking tape to get the location right.  You'll note a gap between the lower edge of the kit piece and the hull . . . this was created by a number of factors, but based on my measurements it shouldn't be a problem:

When it came to actually joining the quarter gallery moulding to the transom, I ended up having to lay in some internal braces, to serve as secure glue points for the aft edge, where the moulding miters into the stern moulding.

Here's where thing stood as of an hour or so ago.  Since this shot, I have laid in a light layer of putty to begin building up and closing the gap I mentioned earlier:

Slow going . . . but satisfying to see things progressing inch by inch, mile by mile.

Thanks!

Charles

It looks pretty good from this end of the peanut gallery!

Groot

Thanks Groot!  I appreciate the feedback!

So, tonight, I'm working on the moulding and trim pieces underneath the quarter galleries.  I'm making everything from styrene rod, strip and sheet.  Here's where I am as of a few minutes ago:

All of these little pieces required shaping, sanding, filing to get them where I wanted them.

Charles

Charles, you might find use for a trick I used to make moldings for my Hancock model.

If you need a tiny molding with a cross section that the manufacturers don't offer, you can make it yourself. Grind a female version of the cross section into a small piece of steel. I used an old Xacto chisel blade - the kind that fits in the fat plastic handle. I did the grinding with a thin carborundum disk chucked in a Dremel tool - with the blade, of course, clamped in a vise. (Keep a cup of water nearby to quench the blade every few seconds, so you don't take the temper out.)  Remove any burrs with a sharpening stone. (A hard Arkansas works well.) Then chuck the blade up in the handle and you're ready to go.

I found I could get the best results by scraping the edge of a styrene sheet. (I think most of the moldings I made were .040 thick.) Then, using a straightedge, slice the molding off the sheet at whatever width you want.

As I remember, making the cutter, once I'd gathered the necessary tools (Dremel tool, cutting disk, mandrel, vise, Arkansas stone, and water), took about ten minutes - and the cost was negligible.

Hope that's useful.

First class tip there Commodore. Break out the claret!

It's a miniaturized variation on the old traditional "beading tool," which was used by generations of cabinet makers in the days before milling machines. Lee Valley makes a nice, modernized version:  www.leevalley.com/.../page.aspx . I've thought about buying one, but I don't think it would work well for models - except on cases.

Lee Valley is an excellent source for lots of tools that come in handy for model building. Check out these tiny little planes:  http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=70138&cat=1,41182 . I've had occasion recently to use the miniature block plane. When the blade is honed carefully (about a dozen strokes on a 4000-grit waterstone), it works beautifully.

Professor--

I love that suggestion.  I had actually toyed with using a profile to form putty or milliput, similar to the way molding is formed when using plaster, but had never gotten further than thinking about it.  And I appreciate the detail about quenching so as not to lose tempe on the blader; that's exactly the kind of first-timer mistake I would make without your heads-up.  

So far, I've been able to get the shapes I'm after using files and sandpaper, but I love your process, and may find a spot to use it downstream.  

Thanks again for the feedback, and for peeking in!

Charles

Uh-oh.  I just clicked on that Lee Valley link.  A fellow could spend quite a bit here if he lacked willpower.