Lindberg Jolly Roger 1/130 by Brenticus

I built this same kit some years back and decided to make it into a dirty privateer. I still have another one in my stash that I intended to build as the La Flore. I used the plastic shrouds as well when i built this kit s. I did so for pretty much the same reason as you, time. it was a quick fun build.

Brenticus--

You're doing a very nice job on the rigging.  The only issue I see is the one you ask about, namely the anchor cable.  The Flemish coils are nicely done, yet the rope does seem slightly out of scale, and slightly "stiff" to boot.

A question--are you using beeswax on the thread?  For the heavier line, actually soaking the thread in melted beeswax and squeezing off the excess gives you a smooth, kink-free, stretch of thread that you can mold and drape quite naturally.

Still and all . . . you have tons to be proud of here.  Nicely done!

Charles

Charles,

Thanks! I may be changing up the anchor chain anyway, it seems.  This kit does not include any hawseholes, but now that their absence has been brought to my attention, I am considering drilling some into the hull and using those.  I would probably just cut off the ropes and leave the coils, in this case.  

To answer your question, though, I am not using beeswax, but that sounds like a good thing to do.  I will have to pick some up.  The reason the anchor chain looks so stiff is because it is a waxed rope.  It's nice when coiling and poking it through holes, but you're right, it does look quite stiff.  

As long as I'm already off to the shop, I might just get a new anchor cable.  That is, assuming I have the guts to poke holes in my ship at this point (the prospect is quite terrifying).  

Also, just a note that the instructions on this kit are pretty bad, though the rigging instructions are broken apart in a way that is fairly digestible.  But it also asks me to lash the bowsprit to the ship through a nonexistent hole, so...some progress to be made lol.

Thanks, as always, for the feedback!

Regarding beeswax - it can never, so far as I know, do any harm. Whether you actually need it is a somewhat different question.

The two big functions of beeswax are that it lays down fuzz and keeps out moisture, which otherwise might cause the thread to react too much to changes in the humidity. If you're using cotton thread (which I strongly advise against), beeswax is just about essential. I'd also be inclined to wax the usual sewing-store-type cotton/synthetic blend stuff.

If, on the other hand, you're using silk, or linen, or nylon, or any of the modern threads made specifically for ship modeling (Cottage Industries Models or Syren Ship Model Company, for instance), beeswax won't actually accomplish much.

I confess that I've never bothered to melt the beeswax. I normally use a little cake inside a clear plastic box. Such things are widely available in sewing stores.

The phrase "anchor chain" came up. Beware! Chain anchor cables didn't appear till well into the nineteenth century

Hmm, I don't remember what the exact makeup of my rigging is (though I tried to get as high a percentage of artificial/synthetic as possible), so I'll double check that and (since I did get it at a sewing shop) probably apply some beeswax.  Thanks for the tip, guys.

Oh, I thought "anchor chain" was a phrase used to describe the huge ropes that held the anchor.  I must have misheard/read something somewhere!

What would the correct terminology be?  Line?  Cable?  Or something else?

Thanks again

Either "anchor cable" or "hawser" would be right. Technically, "hawser-laid" rope is spun up clockwise and "cable-laid" rope is spun up counter-clockwise. If you look at a piece of hawser-laid rope from the side, the individual strands appear to go upward and to the right. In cable-laid rope, they go up to the left.

In the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, at least in the British Navy, cable-laid rope was typically used for the major lines of the standing rigging, and hawser-laid for everything else. That's why experienced ship modelers often make their own rope.

An old-fashioned sailor would tell you that ROPE is a material used to make LINES. There are a few exceptions (footrope, top rope), but generally speaking rigging is made up of LINES.

Just to make things even stupider, in the latter days of the sailing ship, many of the lines were made out of chain.

Hope that helps - but I'm afraid I may have made things worse.

If you drill hawseholes, there's a "cheat" that will help you out.    Dril the hawseholes, then pass the anchor line though from port to starboard (or vice versa if that's handier).  Repeat for the second anchor line (if used (a second anchor rode was not often rigged, if only to reduce belowdecks clutter).   Don't worry about the fixed end of the anchor line, it will likely be below the gundeck and not visible.  

To fasten the line to the anchors, take a bit of fine black or dark brown thread and tie it around the end of the anchor line a couple of millimeters from the end.  Take about 4 or 5 turns of the thread around the end of the anchor line, then snube that with an overhand turn.   Leave about 4-6" o the thread loose.

Pass the anchor line through the ring on the anchor, and make a tight loop around the ring.  Then, bring the end back around to the anchor line making a loop about the size of the anchor ring.  Now wrap the remaining thread around both the end of the anchor line and the line itself.  This will approximate a fisherman's bend, and will look a bit better than an overhand knot on the ring.

@ Jtilley:

Ah, I see (regarding rope/lines).  My apologies again, as I thought it was that something was a rope until it had a purpose/ was attached to something, etc.- at which case it became a "line."  I wonder where the distinction is drawn?  Is it in diameter or use perhaps?  Or maybe it's just one of those (seemingly many) arbitrary terms with a few (random) exceptions?  

Lol confusing indeed (line made of chain).  But I appreciate all the info.

@CapnMac and generally regarding the hawseholes etc:

I have done some research regarding the frigate La Flore and the hawseholes, anchor cable, etc.  In most pictures I have seen of the more intricate/famous models (like the one in the JFK Library), the anchor chain just sort of seems to disappear into the ornamentation of the bow.  In none of the models I've seen are the hawseholes readily visible, as you can see on the example below.

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And from another model (Amati) here:

i57.tinypic.com/2ymg6sn.jpg

This is good news for me, since I am too scared of messing something up to drill hawseholes (had a lot of trouble getting the bow ornamentation to sit right...and it still doesn't quite sit where it should).  Given this, I think I'm going to just kind of cheat and hide the anchor cable by having it feed up into the bow and maybe disappear at the appropriate place- as it seems to do in the pictures above.

Also, after some delays in waiting for things like waiting for silkspan (which has now been replaced with Modelspan, though not on the website...was in a note from Bluejacket), etc. I have returned to my model.

Last night, I was able to paint all of the yards (troublesome things at this scale, if one intends to paint the studdingsail yards a different color, which I believe was the norm), and make my first sail.

I used Blue Ensign's (from Model Ship World and Pete-coleman.com) method for the most part, cutting out the shape of the sail from cardboard and using a paint/glue mix over the sailcloth over the jig so that it can sag and keep shape.  Though to be sure, I did this to a lower standard of accuracy than he did (no clues, reef points, etc.).  I did add one thing to the process though: while I was letting the sail dry over the cut-out area of the cardboard, I added some small weights (jelly beans) to stop it from returning to shape.  This seems to have worked well, and the sail has just a little concave to it, but is still very tight, as I have seen it in many videos of square-riggers- not quite as billowy as the vacuum-formed sails, but probably a little more accurate (correct me if I'm wrong).

I probably won't be able to work on the ship again until next week, but I'm glad I kept progressing with it...I don't want to (and can't) let it sit.  I'll hopefully have most of the sail and YARD-work (ahhhhhh!  get it?! lol ok yeah that was pretty bad...) done soon and will post pics.

And thank you, Capn, for the tips regarding hawseholes.  Though it looks like I will not use it on this build, I'm sure I will on one of my next ones.   Much obliged, sir!

Your definition of "line" vs. "rope" is a good one that's given in plenty of sources. It says just about what I did in my earlier post.

Nautical vocabulary is eccentric and sometimes ridiculous. (How about the topsail - which in most ships isn't on top?) And yeah, the use of the word "rope" in such terms as "footrope" and "toprope" is indeed an exception to a general (though not terribly specific or consistant) rule.

The Lindberg kit appears to be based on the old French model now in the JFK Library. Quite a few years ago Jean Boudriot, the dean of the history of French sailing ship architecture, did a lengthy article for the Nautical Research Journal in which he sorted through the various French frigates named La Flore (there were quite a few of them) in an effort to establish just what ship the model represented. He concluded that no ship quite like the model actually existed. Apparently the model was based on a proposed design that never actually got built. The Lindberg kit is, quite literally, a model of a model. Here's a Forum thread from 2008 that discusses the Boudriot article: http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/modeling_subjects/f/7/t/94708.aspx?sort=ASC&pi240=1 .

I strongly advise against using photos of a model built from an Amati kit as a source of information. Amati's kits vary considerably in quality (the "Victory Models" series of British warships looks really good), but essentially Amati is a HECEPOB company (that's Hidously Expensive Continental European Plank-On-Bulkhead). Its products in general aren't to be taken seriously as scale models.

A set of plans apparently taken from the JFK Library model is available from the Friends of the Musee de la Marine (the French naval museum); they can be bought through www.taubmansonline.com. (The price is pretty staggering; I think the plans can be had more reasonably through some French sources.) Those plans, and the photos of the old model, are about the best sources available for the Lindberg kit.

Good luck.

In general, the hawse holes pass through a block of wood thicker than the side planking, but not so thick as the wale planking.  Ther would be a quarter-round bit that would make the transition from wale to hawse block.  That latter would be given a radius at the bottom to ease the transition to better allow the anchor rode to pass over.

All of which is a bit beyond the scale of the present kit--but might be appropriate for la Flore.

At this scale you could just apply a rectangle of thin plastic for the hawse pipe block, then drill it out for the hawse holes.  At this scale all you really neeed is a hole not much bigger than th eline you indent to use for the rode.  Which ought to look better than an eye or blind hole in the hull.

For la Flore, when you get to her, the way anchor rodes are brought aboard might be illustrative.  The anchor rode might be a yard in circumference (about 12" in--lumpy--diameter.  This would make it far too stiff to wrap around a capstan or windlass (rule-of-thumb is to 5 times diameter minimum radius for natural fibre line).  

So, to take the anchor in, you use a smaller line, say 12 to 15" circumference line, and splice that together in a loop.  Which would be passed three turns around the capstan, and through a block in the opposite end of the ship from the capstan (aft capstan, block in bow; forward capstan, block aft.  

To use this line, known as a messenger, short whips of marline or rope ends were tied around both the messenger and the anchor line at intervals along the pair's common length.  As the crew turned the capstan ,the messenger  line would move and the  whips would bite, or "nip" the anchor line , carrying it back to the cable tier.

As the whips neared the capstan, the ship's boys, would loos the whips, and run them to the other end of the messenger to keep the same number of nips going.

Life at sea under sail could be a hard existence.  If the boys felt a sailor stationed on the capstan had wronged them, they might snap the whips off the messenger and rode to smack the sailor about his feet and calves.  Which part of hoe lil' nippers might be whippersnappers.

Hey , Brenticus !

Inside the Le'Superbe is a wonderful tool for creating your own ratlines ! Use it carefully and they'll come out beautiful .You just have to continue to do the great job you're doing .So There ! T.B.

@jtilley,

Well, I'm glad I had some sense of the word, at least :)

I had read in the logs of others that the muse de la marine offered plans for La Flore, though I also had read that it costs a pretty penny.

However, I had NOT read that La Flore was never built, that she is a model of a model of a ship that wasn't built.  Very interesting!

I think I've given up on the hawses though, and the anchor cables.  I think I'm just going to haul them and lash them to the hull unattached to the cables for a long atlantic crossing, which I have read was done (I'm told the hawseholes would be plugged up so as to make her more seaworthy).

Thanks for all of the info again, jtilley!

CapnMac,

Now, here's another thing I had no idea of.  As the eminent landsman Dr. Maturin (or really a lot of people at the time I geuss) would say, "You astonish me, sir."

That is a really interesting process!  I am constantly amazed by sailors' ingenuity, and the complexity of the old tall ships, which- grand as they may be- seem small to contain so much.  Whenever I read about it all, it seems like there isn't anything a sailor can't take care of so long as they have some wood and a bit of rope.

As I mentioned to tilly, however, I think I'm just going to haul the anchors in and lash them to the hull unattached to the cables for a long atlantic crossing, which I have read was done (I'm told the hawseholes would be plugged up so as to make her more seaworthy)

Though I am torn, as cable always looks good on a ship.

Second opinions about whether or not I should have the anchor cables visible or not, anyone?

Regardless of the question of anchors and cables, I have continued to make progress on my model in other areas, I am glad to say.

I have finally finished making the sails, simple though they are with no clues or reef points, etc.  I figure that's probably ok at this scale, but I'm not sure.  I certainly like how it looks, especially the color.  I sewed the sails to the yards as per the instructions, a method I would give mixed reviews but is easy if nothing else.  Anyhow, here is what I've got :

i57.tinypic.com/5p0jro.jpg

i60.tinypic.com/sbpw2a.jpg

i57.tinypic.com/5esn4z.jpg

Do let me know how the sails look, if you would.  I like their looks, but I'm a bit afraid might be too plain.

I actually made one with lines down it, but the lines were too dark.  Anyway, feedback would be appreciated.

(deleted to repost/reformat)

Oh, and I made the stand myself, sort of.  I had a trophy shop make me the base, ordered the brass parts from Bluejacket, and put it all together- including the terrifying experience of drilling holes in the bottom of the ship in order for it to be secure (the keel was too small for the stands).

I think it looks pretty good

Brenticus--

Looks like solid work to me, my friend.  Congrats on taking this one across the finish line, and in fine style at that.

And I agree with you on how horrifying it is to drill into the keel, when you have a nearly finished model in your hands.  (On my current project, I'm going to drill well ahead of that, basically as soon as I've finished up some work on the stern, and I'm finished with the paint work on the exterior of the hull.  That way I can drill fro the inside if necessary as well, since the decks will still be on the sidelines, waiting to be called into service.)

Anyway . . . take a moment to be proud of your work, you've earned it!

Charles

Thanks, Charles!  I appreciate it!

By the by, does anyone know how to make images visible without having to click on them?  What am I doing wrong?

Thanks,

Brent

Brent--

First thing you have to do is click the "Use rich formatting" link.  That opens up a wide of array of options, one of which is embedding an actual image.  The toolbar looks like this:

To embed an image, just copy the image URL from your photo hosting service, and then click on this button in the toolbar:

That'll open up a small window into which you paste the URL.  Paste, then click the "Insert" button, and there you have it.

Charles

It's finished!

I missed my deadline, but only by a few days.  The finished product- not without its flaws- is below. Some of the lines sag, and I did my best to fix this, but sometimes I just couldn't get it to stay tight- particularly when it's fixed to something as flimsy as that modelspan.  I applied superglue to keep it rigid, but it just wasn't straight enough.  Next time, I'll know to use wire.

I took a few liberties with the anchor and with the lines from the corners of the sails running aft

Here is another place where I changed the configuration from that of the instructions, which insisted on fixing the lines coming from the sails be attached to the side of the ship at the lower part of the gundeck.  That seemed an awfully long way down and a huge trouble in the case of changing sail, so I looked at some more pictures.  Most of these showed the same lines being fixed to the ship much higher, so I tried to emulate that.

I was short on time, but I had to find time to at least add the lines going from the main yard to the stern.  But, believe it or not, this wasn't in the instructions.  So I looked at some pictures of other models and of the Surprise/Rose and made my own approximation with one of the extra pieces from the kit.

The kit also didn't specify that the corners of the topsails should be fixed to the main yards, though this was evident in pretty much every picture I saw.  So I fixed that too- it took little enough time.  

This is probably the weakest part of my model, and close examination will show that one side is slightly different than the other in the way the foremost anchor is lashed to the ship.  I was having trouble finding a definitive source on how this should look, and again I was out of time.  So I took an illustration from A Young Officer's Sheet Anchor, which seemed minimalistic, and added a couple more lashings as I had seen in many other pictures of models.  The result is probably somewhat dubious, but I doubt the recipient will notice or care, thankfully.  Next time, I will definitely have to do more research, though.  Oh, I did add puddening though!  Something I had not been familiar with.

All in all, I am thrilled with my model, flawed (very flawed, though that is mostly due to the instructions) rigging and all.  I thank everyone here for their advice and encouragement, and I can't wait to push myself a little further and try something more in-depth (and maybe on a larger scale lol) that will have more detail and be more accurate.  

And any critiques are welcome.  As we in training (my current profession) say, "feedback is a gift."