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A Tale of Two Ships .

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  • Member since
    June, 2014
  • From: New Braunfels , Texas
A Tale of Two Ships .
Posted by Tanker - Builder on Sunday, March 12, 2017 7:44 AM

Hi;

 Do you have two ships the same . In poor repair . Specifically the The C-3 ship Known as the Dr.Lykes or the Hawaiian Pilot ?

 Did you see or have you seen a picture Don Posted one time of a great Lakes Whaleback freighter ? Did you know those two ships can become one of the Whalebacks ? 

   The information and pictures are available and there plenty of parts to work with . Are you Game ? It's a neat way to have something different in your ship collection .

 This is what I do with a lot of builds that get damaged as they age . Have you ever thought about doing something like this ? Tell us what you have come up with .  T.B.

  • Member since
    July, 2014
Posted by Nino on Saturday, March 18, 2017 12:24 PM

 Tanker-Builder, that sounds like a fun idea.

 I have seen reports that the old Heller Roman Bireme kit is too short. The recommendations were to get two kits and combine them to make one Bireme of the proper length.

I happen to have 2 of the smaller Heller Bireme 1/225 scale versions to practice on and I think I would like to give it a try to turn these two "Biremes" into a Trireme or at least a Bireme of a proper length. Is this the type of "A Tale of Two Ships" you had in mind? 

There seems to be too many Ideas on the internet of what a Romen Bireme/Trireme looked like. I suspect I would need a bunch of reference material to figure Where to cut and mate the hulls for proper length plus Making a new deck (ie: should it be a solid deck or maybe a long opening in the center or??)  And, I could need 180 oars!  It will be awhile before I can try this but I sure would like to.

Thanks for posting the idea.  Jim.

Has anyone actually tried to make a Trireme or maybe a "better" Bireme out of the Imai:Academy-Minicraft-Aoshima-Modelist-BUM or Aurora or Heller Roman warship kits?  

  • Member since
    June, 2014
  • From: New Braunfels , Texas
Posted by Tanker - Builder on Saturday, March 18, 2017 1:14 PM

Hi ;

   Well , I was waiting for someone to get in on this . I do modern ships , but I don't see a problem here . Now on that score the Old Aurora Viking is a simple one .

   Stretching it makes it more like the bigger ships used to go plundering . At least 40 plus the captain and navigator .

 The ship you chose could be done . A little more work but many of those had sixty oars to a side and the rest were the men with bows and boarding pikes .

     The biggest thing to remember if you add another deck is this .You need to figure the higher the deck , the longer the oars .    T.B.

  • Member since
    November, 2005
  • From: Formerly Bryan, now Arlington, Texas
Posted by CapnMac82 on Saturday, March 18, 2017 3:09 PM

Tanker - Builder
.You need to figure the higher the deck , the longer the oars .

There's some academic debate on that.  one school of thought is that the upper deck oars were out-riggered over the lower tiers, so that the oars could all be made to the same length.  (There being limits to just how long an oar can be handled by human hands.)

Where that school gets all snarky is on putting mutlple oarsmen on a single oar.  This, becasue it starts driving the hull dimensions.  Three hands per oar is six across.  But, it's the arc for the inboard end of the oar that gets tricky.  If we posit a 6'-0" oar with three men on it, and the middle one having a sweep of 30" (±15"), the outboard oarsmen only has ±13" and the inboard of ±26"--or a 54" swwep, which cannot be accomplished on a single seated position. 

If we presume slaves chained to benches, then inboad might sweep 30"; middle only 12", and outboard a rather pointless 6"  Which suggests that hte banked roaman ships had either one man or at most two men per oar.  Or, so goes the academis debate.

  • Member since
    June, 2014
  • From: New Braunfels , Texas
Posted by Tanker - Builder on Sunday, March 19, 2017 10:58 AM

Ah Capn Mac ;

 You could be very right .I never really got into that debate .I do know on some Drawings found the ships had Porches .I.E. Maybe outriggers off the main hull . T.B.

  • Member since
    July, 2014
Posted by Nino on Monday, March 20, 2017 9:42 AM

Thanks for the replies Guys.
My initial conception of a Trireme was to have 1 lower deck giving access to the 3 tiers of oarsmen and a Main deck which would be above the Top Tier of Oarsmen.
 
Stone carvings and pottery show Galleys with outriggers. 

2nd century BC warship with outrigger:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f0/Nike_di_samotracia_00.JPG
 
     I will presume a single man per oar otherwise, as CapnMac82 indicated, Multiple rowers on a single oar might dictate a very different Hull then what I envision using          ( Heller Bireme kits).
    Now my issue would be where is the best place to cut the 2 kit hulls to get the right length to support the rowers and match the hulls. (The plastic hulls are not Straight but  bow out a bit amidships.) Based on where I might attach the hulls, I expect an OA length of  130’ or at 1/225 scale about  7”.  Also, based on the existing layout of the combined hulls this could enable  approx 23 oars in the top tier, 21 in next and 21 in the lowest  giving a total of 65 per side,  130 total... 
     I did see a few posts and builds on FSM regarding the Bireme/Trireme. I will read those and my Reference materials which so far include only The Ship (Landstrom)  the and the proverbial Internet. I have ordered the Age of The Galley ( Conway’s History of the Ship) and hope I can glean a better interpretation of the Bireme/Trireme.
Thanks again for the ideas.  
                                          Jim.
 
P.S. I read the top speed for ramming could be in excess of 15 km/h. In that case each ship would need a Bow lookout, 2 steersmen, a Captain and a Ski instructor (LOL)
(Tks JTilley!)
  • Member since
    April, 2016
Posted by Staale S on Monday, March 20, 2017 10:42 AM

CapnMac82

Where that school gets all snarky is on putting mutlple oarsmen on a single oar.  This, becasue it starts driving the hull dimensions.  Three hands per oar is six across.  But, it's the arc for the inboard end of the oar that gets tricky.  If we posit a 6'-0" oar with three men on it, and the middle one having a sweep of 30" (±15"), the outboard oarsmen only has ±13" and the inboard of ±26"--or a 54" swwep, which cannot be accomplished on a single seated position.  

We know that the last galleys, ca 1700, definitely had preposterous numbers of men per oar, up to seven on the flagship galleys such as the French "La Reale". It has also been calculated that probably the sixth and certainly the seventh man added to an oar was a dead loss when you consider the extra propulsive power he brought to the party in relation to the extra weight of his body and his water and food supplies! 

Yes, yes, they were rowed a scaloccio, single-banked and multi-manned oars, a very different oar arrangement than the classical multiremes, but even so, the mechanics of an individual oar are much the same. Only one guy can possibly row with optimal performance, all the others are in some way output-limited by inefficient ergonomy. And it gets worse for each extra rower you add to an oar.

The guys at the inboards positions had to row standing up, kicking off against the bench in front of them. The only way to get a long enough pull, and to reach high enough to grasp the end of the oar. Hard to see this being practical on a multi-banked galley.

The Greek Navy's trireme "Olympias" has oars all of the same length, does she not? She only has one man per oar, of course.

 

  • Member since
    March, 2013
  • From: East York (Toronto) Canada
Posted by over47 on Monday, March 20, 2017 5:34 PM

Hi, I am currently working on the Academy Roman galley kit @1/72, I am assuming the old Aurora molds. I am converting it to an early simple Greek galley using only one bank of oars as they only supplied 26 oars in the kit.

With the kit in front of me I don't know if two kits can be joined to make a longer model due to the curve amidships stated earlier.  Possibly three kits can be joined to minimize the bowing effect.  That would also require a lot of sanding to remove the strakes under the galley unless one makes a waterline model. One would welcome all those extra oars. I cheated in my frist build of the Aurora kit by using skewers.  I placed the skewers in such a way as it apperared as the oars were submerged in the water.  I placed the second original set above and cut the blades on an angle to apper as they were partly in the water. 

I know this thread is about joining two kits but I though that I would throw this in. I wonder if it is necessary to stretch the kit at all to replicate a bireme.

The kit states that it is a bireme even though they only supply one set of oars. Two rowers can occupy the same bench so logically if we found another set of oars we could mount them and call it a bireme.  I have purchased a few boxes of the Orion Roman rowers to populate the kits and it apperas to work.

In doing some very quick research I am not finding too much on actual measurements of Roman galleys. Bjorn Landstrom also states many things about Roman galleys but again with no fine measurements. He provides the following about Greek galleys, Greek biremes were 65 feet long, 8 feeet wide and had 56 oars.  Later they became up to 80 feet long  and 10 feet wide but with only 50 oars.  During these eras technology did not change as fast as our last century so I hope that one can make some assumptions that the Roman galleys could be similar.

If that is the case the Academy galley measures from stem to ram almost 14 inches,  1 1/2 wide on deck, pushing it to 3 inches with the outriggers. At 1/72 if you scale out 65 feet it measures 10.83 and 80 feet becomes 13.33. 10 feet becomes 1.66 inches. Pretty darn close to Bjorn's numbers.

If we try to model a trireme all bets are off on measurements. Will really have to hit the books on that. I am unsure if the galleys were as luxurious as portrayed in Ben Hur but definetly more space is required than provided in the Academy kit. So even with two or three kits to make a longer trieme, I see a great difficulty in providing the room for a third oar per side and of course our good friends, Mr. Oversearer with his sidekick the Mr. Tom Tom player.  Not to forget the ski instructor on weekends.

On the bench; 74 gun Heller kit, HMS Sutherland; Bomb Ketch, HMS Harvey

  • Member since
    July, 2014
Posted by Nino on Monday, March 20, 2017 8:05 PM

Over47,
     Re”… assuming the old Aurora molds”.  The Academy kit is actually the OLD IMAI mould. A really well produced kit. They did use the same lower hull for Greek and Roman Warships !
 
     The Academy/IMAI hull curve amidships is why I am trying the Heller kit.  The Heller  Hull and outrigger are almost straight. I expect I may have to sand down the outrigger as it could still show a Curve.
 
     At the 1/72 scale your Skewers are a perfect idea.
 
    For future kits I think you could just add a second set of Kit oars and it would be a fine Bireme.        Buy another kit for the oars ( IMAI /ERTL 1/45 or Minicraft 13.3"  or Academy 1/72 (sometimes listed as 1/250-it's really 1/72), or Modelist or BUM(Barcelona Universal models). All seem to be the same mould. (Actual scale may be closer to 1/80. And some suggest 1/100!)
 
    I hope I have my length specs for a Trireme pretty close. So far, I expect to be at a scale 131.25’ long- With Ram, or 124’ without. However, I measured the existing Hull width to equal  approx 15 scale feet! (22’ with Outriggers) .  Could be I might need an additional kit and then re-evaluate the Scale to "increase" the width.  And you are right, we need more information.
 
    My existing layout of the combined Heller hulls could enable approx 23 oars in the top tier, 21 in next and 21 in the lowest  giving a total of 65 per side,  130 total, 1 man per oar.    If we allow 3 feet per rower that requires 18' so my hull would be too narrow. However, I suspect the rowers , being on different levels could overlap as far as width of hull needed. See the following link(s)below
 
By Eric Gaba (Sting - fr:Sting) -

 

       Whatever I decide on final dimensions and layout I think I may wait to claim if it is a Greek or Roman or what Era, until I build it.
 Thanks.
              Jim. 

 

  • Member since
    July, 2014
Posted by Nino on Monday, March 20, 2017 10:44 PM

Tanker-Builder,Capnmac,and Staale S

     Multiple Rowers per oar requires a lot more investigation and interpretation.  I decide on a single-man-per-Oar otherwise I figured I’d need a wider Hull. Thanks for the Math and the “Standing room only” observation. Jim

  • Member since
    June, 2014
  • From: New Braunfels , Texas
Posted by Tanker - Builder on Tuesday, March 21, 2017 12:10 PM

Yeah ;

 I saw one movie and the main guy ( Charleton Heston ) Was on the top row and had an oar all to himself .But you know Hollywood .

  • Member since
    July, 2014
Posted by Nino on Tuesday, March 21, 2017 12:34 PM

Heston was way too tall to fit in there. No doubt they had to do a big refit for the Star. Raise that top deck 5 inches and there goes your Center of Gravity- Vasa all over again LOL.

  • Member since
    July, 2014
Posted by Nino on Tuesday, March 21, 2017 3:22 PM

Thought it would be a good idea to try to Post Pics of what I discussed so far...

(1st try using Photobucket)

The box above, the Two Ships below.

 

1st Cut based on compromise of estimated length needed and Hull curvature:

2nd cut to match up the two ships into a decent "Tale":

 

Alingment with spare sprue:

 

Initial fit ( not good- needs some realingmnet and sanding.):

 

After fixing  A bit better.   OA Length at 7" ( ~131 feet at 1/225)  

Temp fit of a possible lower deck:

Next Post will be awhile as I am Waitin' On The Man to deliver some books!

  • Member since
    June, 2014
  • From: New Braunfels , Texas
Posted by Tanker - Builder on Thursday, March 23, 2017 11:58 AM

Oho !

 I like it ! More , More ! Please ?  T.B.

  • Member since
    July, 2014
Posted by Nino on Wednesday, March 29, 2017 9:05 AM

     I received The Age of the Galley- Conway's History of the Ship.   Started reading and now it's Information Overload.  My ideas for the deck and Outrigger could need to be changed. The Hull below the waterline on the kit(s) is also probably wrong. However, I do not plan to change the hull.

Note: Yesterday I bought another Heller Roman Bireme Imperator in 1/225... In case I need the oars.

     Jim.

  • Member since
    July, 2014
Posted by Nino on Tuesday, April 04, 2017 4:06 PM

Sorry for the delay to update this "two-ship" tale. I have been a bit preocupied with Taxes and Family issues.


     The Reference material helped but I am still left with my vison of what this model should look like. ( It'll never be a replica- but will be fun).


Some pictures of my paper and plastic test deck(s):   Center Gangway, a Double Gangway (will require a re-thinking of the Scale), and a Fully covered deck. 

On the open decks I plan to included a "bridge" to facilitate movement of Marines.  

   The overhang of the paper deck over the hull/outrigger  was my interpetaion of Fabric/Leather coverings to protect the top tier rowers but still allow some air.  Close-up below:

 

My last Pic as I contemplate my next move :

Note that one of the 2 "Tents" is a Straw.  Guess from where.

I did not let the left over Bow and Stern go to waste.  The perfect pieces to practice on. Popcicle-stick deck, left-over plastic hull, a bunch of Bondo and...an instant Roman Liburna-maybe.

I am leaning toward an Open gangway down the center. The lower deck and supports are temporary- used for height adjustment.

I think My Castle may be too small for the intended scale. I will make a larger one.


The small upright piece at the stern is a Platform from which the "Fearless Leader" can stand and oversee the ship and be somewhat protected from "Pointed Sticks".       So now, "...I have a Plan"...                                                                         

             I will probably not keep the platform as I can't find references to one. And, I couldn't help the Rocky and Bullwinkle, Monty Python, and Dr. Strangelove tribute.
     

      Jim.

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