Regarding T2 tankers

I'm looking forward to this Bondo.

I can't help you on the colors.  I know in more recent times MSC ships which were run by private companies were painted grey with only a couple of stripes on the stack (yellow and blue?) but still had printed over their name "US Naval Ship". Whether any of this applies to your timeframe, I don't know.

By the way, it looks to me like all the railings are only two bar. Is that right?

Fred

I wasn't clear on what time frame you will be doing. 1944? Just speculating here, but I would think the painting of T-2s that were operated by private companies during wartime would be similar to the way they handled Liberty ships, for example.

The Liberty ships were operated by various companies, ie Grace Line etc. Mostly they were just all painted gray, no stack decoration and during convoys had their names painted out too.

Have you seen this picture?

http://www.usmaritimecommission.de/pictures.php?code=A1815a

This German site is a goldmine for old ship pictures.

edited link 4-21-09

 Fred

Just wait until '44. There will be no more fun with your deck gun.

onyxman wrote:

I'm looking forward to this Bondo. I can't help you on the colors.  I know in more recent times MSC ships which were run by private companies were painted grey with only a couple of stripes on the stack (yellow and blue?) but still had printed over their name "US Naval Ship". Whether any of this applies to your timeframe, I don't know. By the way, it looks to me like all the railings are only two bar. Is that right? Fred

onyxman wrote:

I wasn't clear on what time frame you will be doing. 1944? Just speculating here, but I would think the painting of T-2s that were operated by private companies during wartime would be similar to the way they handled Liberty ships, for example. The Liberty ships were operated by various companies, ie Grace Line etc. Mostly they were just all painted gray, no stack decoration and during convoys had their names painted out too. Have you seen this picture? http://www.us-maritime-commission.de/pictures.php?code=A1815a This German site is a goldmine for old ship pictures.  Fred

Surface Line sent me the kit instructions, which have a great painting of the ship in a multi colored deception pattern. I like it and will try to see if it's accurate and what the measure is. Any help appreciated.

Bill

"It's interesting because she's sailing west  up the bay.."

Judging by the propeller wash I think she's going astern, probably just turning around.

I have one more T-2 to do. I think I'll do it as this one:

http://www.usmaritimecommission.de/pictures.php?code=A0326a

or maybe this:

http://www.usmaritimecommission.de/pictures.php?code=A2720b

Here's a real nice color shot of one deep loaded and underway. I think that exaggerated wave pattern is because the water is shallow:

http://www.usmaritimecommission.de/pictures.php?code=A1744b

I'm really interested to see how your cambered front comes out.

edited links 4-21-09 

I really like the SS. Lompoc there. Thats the Richmond/ Port Costa area behind, she's moored in the channel that leads eventually to Stockton and Sacramento.

You're right about the Carmel, it looks like she's being turned around. That is a great shot. I'm going to contact the photographer and see if I can get a print.

I dipped into a couple of sites showing ship camouflage, but I don't know where to even start. So my plan is to do a gray paint scheme like the picture.

The name of the Lompoc is vaguely familiar to me. It was probably still running into the '70s. 

re the pic of the Carmel.  Since you are doing a loaded waterline it doesn't matter to you, but I wonder what's the deal with that funny darker patch around the rudder and propeller area?  I notice the same thing on some of the other pictures of the same series.  I can't think why they would put antifouling only on that part of the hull.

One of those mysteries lost in time I guess.

The camouflage you are referring to is from the old John Steel box art.  I will try to send you a bigger print.

 I will also look around for the reference; might have it in my files.

Rick

Look at Navsource page for USS Cimarron AO22

There is a better camouflage drawing than any that I have in my files, an a photo of Cimarron wearing that pattern - Ms 32/13T.

Here's a site I just found that has a fair amount of local history.

http://www.sausalitohistoricalsociety.org/marinship/default.htm

Thanks for the camouflage tip. It's led to all kinds of info, I've expanded my knowledge to a couple of websites beyond steelnavy, which is great, and lots of new stuff. It looks like Measure 32 is the color scheme for the Fleet Oilers, and the patterns so far include 4AO, 5AO, 7AO, 10AD and 13T. Very interesting stuff.

I'm sorry, humor me but I'm like a kid who found the candy shop door unlocked! You know they say the converts are the dangerous ones!

New info is always good info. It seems to me that the fleet oilers are based mostly on T3's. And the photos I found, plus the painting in the instructions, tend more towards the Korean conflict/ early 60"s. And the few photos I can find of Mission Carmel seem to be a simple Light Grey scheme, like Measure 23.

A fleet oiler would be a good project for another day, the additional booms don't look too complicated, hoses etc. I have no idea what a T3 is as opposed to a T2 but that's another project.

So I'm getting started this weekend, first thing is to cut down the hull and remove several thousand feet of cast railings. I glued the deck to the hull about a year ago, so it should be ready for some serious razor saw work.

Thanks again everyone for your info. In my searches I found many interesting things T2's became; container ships, test range radar ships, and a small aircraft carrier!

Anchors hoisted and lashed, sir! Telegraph the engine room for Slow Ahead.

Based on the drawings I got from the National Archives- thanks Fred for the link- I worked out the freeboard. The difference between the draft and the depth is about 10 feet, but I would assume that you add the depth of the keelson to that, so I decided on a freeboard of about 12 feet. That seems to look "right" in photos of laden T2s. And certainly is less than the 20 feet or so Revell gave us. So it seemed a safe call. The black is a primer I sprayed after I taped off the waterline from below. Thats a trick on cut-down projects- mask the discard area, paint the keeper side, pull the tape, saw a 1/16" or so below the paint and sand until the unpainted plastic goes away. She already looks better! Isn't the hull lower piece a pretty shape???

Next step is to carve off the rails and the curved fillets fore and aft of the bridge structure are way too vertical- much more curved and graceful on the actual ship, so thats an easy sheet styrene project. I'll take the plans, which are 1/192 scale, in to the office on Monday and make reductions for patterns.

Looking good! You are right about those 'fillets' being too pronounced.

Fred

Here is an oddball mystery:

http://www.usmaritimecommission.de/pictures.php?code=A0306b

In that second picture of the USS Schuylkill, the stack is moved to just behind the midship superstructure. What is going on there?  Surely the engines stayed aft. Is it just a dummy funnel to make identification difficult?

Note the P-47s on deck in the last pic.

???

edited link 4-21-09

onyxman wrote:

Here is an oddball mystery:  http://www.us-maritime-commission.de/pictures.php?code=A0306b In that second picture of the USS Schuylkill, the stack is moved to just behind the midship superstructure. What is going on there?  Surely the engines stayed aft. Is it just a dummy funnel to make identification difficult? Note the P-47s on deck in the last pic. ???

Jeez it's getting dangerous out there! Think I'll sail WEST! Gonna have to get out the Whitley from the FAA GB, and yes I know it's really RAF Coastal Command, and go hunting U-Boats!

More great pics Fred. Notice how the engine room ventilators all stayed at the stern? No doubt that's what gave away the game to Kapitan Manny.

I'm going to stick to the T2 for this model, but another good one would be the AO series with that GREAT Measure 32 camouflague. Very very busy deck, and some cargo looks good on there too. I would need much more info, so I'm going to start leisurely collecting it. That's what is portrayed on the old Revell box cover, a fleet oiler which Mission San Juan Batista never was. Your picture is interesting, because it's the first AO I've seen built from a T2. The previous ones I've looked at were based on T3's, whatever the difference is I don't know.

T-3s were generally about 30 ft longer, except one version was actually shorter than a T-2.

http://www.usmm.org/tankers.html

Another pic there of a full load of P-47s on deck.

The Revell model measures out, at the stated scale of 1/400, at 520 feet overall, which is pretty close to a T2. So a T3 would be an elongation of 30 feet at scale, or 0.90 inches. That can't be ignored.

The next step in the next ship model project; there, I've declared it, would be a T3 based Fleet Oiler in Measure 32 camouflage, just like the John Steel illustration on the box of the old San Juan Capistrano, which was always a T2 tanker.

Sorry Revell, but I own this kit box top.

I've identified the following scratch items so far:

Forecastle anchor capstan which is a half relief mold in the deck of the kit.

Walkways.

Engine room skylight.

Bridge front all decks, with camber.

It'd be nice to make two of each, in order to ammortize the effort a little.

And it relieves me to stay true to prototype on the T2 Mission Carmel, and pursue the very interesting AO build later.

One last thing- the drawings show a pronounced rake to the masts on the T2, but it's hard to see in photos. Was that rebuilt to vertical?

Next step- T3 drawings! This might take TWO more kits, but I'm good with a razor saw and BONDO!!!

  How come nobody has mentioned the non-plastic T-2 tanker kit at 1/16th scale, released by Bluejacket Ship Crafters of Searsport, Maine ? At $285. without s & h, this kit is a bit expensive, but BlueJacket is known for their quality products.

  Montani semper liberi !     Happy modeling to all and every one of you.

                                            Crackers   

I've re-done two of these T-2 anchor windlasses now, one on the Ideal-x and one on the Houston build. The half molded ones on the kits aren't that bad, but you want to use real chain instead of the stuff molded flat on the deck. (the railings on Ideal-X should have been two-bar. Oh well.) The chain I used is probably a tad too big.

Re the masts, if you click on that first link which I posted earlier to the photos of the Bennington, the second picture down is a nice beam-on view. (I think that is near Port Angeles, WA, with the Olympic Range in the background)  The masts look raked as it shows in the drawing.  By the way, the drawing visible in the picture you posted shows a plain mast, but it seems vent lines were added alongside the masts in nearly all versions, like the kit parts show.

The catalogue of plans from the Smithsonian has two pages of T-3 plans available. One is T3-S-A1 Tanker. The other is T3-S2-A1 Tanker AO conversion.  Bill, I'll be happy to mail you these pages if you want.

According to the catalogue, all these T-3s were built by the Bethlehem Sparrows Point yard in Baltimore.

For the engine room skylight, is the kit's totally oversized? I suspect so.

Crackers, at $285, I think the Bluejacket people will have to make their way in the world without my assistance.

Fred

bondo, why use 2 kits to make 1 ship when it can be done with 1 kit? just cut the model in half on the straight flat part of the hull & put an scratchbuilt styrene insert in between the 2 cut sections. i've done that twice now in converting 2 airfix 1/600 ajax hulls into hms exeter & hms york. had to widen the hulls by 1mm & lengthen the hulls by about 11mm. used 1mm(.040")styrene to make a new lengthened profile of the ship, cut the hulls across the middle then glued them in the correct spots on either side of the profile & enclosed gap in the middle with 1mm plastic plates. once glue dried i then sanded it smooth & just have to make 2 new keel bilges on each ship.

onyx, is it possible to get a copy of the plans, even scanned versions?

Hey Bondoman, you can humor me all you want, love this thread and all the information contained within... look forward to your build! 

ddp59, I've done similar surgery to reduce the length on a hull by cutting a section out and joining the halves again.

The plans are available from the Smithsonian's National Museum of American History, 'The Maritime Administration Collection of Ship's Plans (1939-1970)

You can get the whole catalogue, but it's kind of expensive, about $20 if I recall.  If you PM me I'll copy the page you want and an order sheet and mail them to you. The plans are quite cool and run $10 to $20 or more, generally 1/192 scale, so they are a large sheet. Bondo has one of the T-2 plans and you can see it in the picture he posted earlier in this thread.

Fred