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Wooden Ship Kits?

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  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Wooden Ship Kits?
Posted by David_K on Tuesday, August 28, 2012 10:43 AM

Hello all-

So, looking to the future, and I'm wondering if I should consider getting my feet wet in the area of wooden kits?  What are the popular views on wooden kits?  Any advice?

I've read about Jtilley's contempt of the HECEPOB kits.  Much of his disdain seems to stem from the commonly-found inaccuracies of these kits, and he has said that while they may be of quality, they are designed by those who know little or nothing of how a real ship works (totally paraphrased)...

Those who are familiar with my (limited) experiences building model ships, might know that I care little for *authenticity*...my current build of the Black Swan will testify to this (the encapsulated mast-capstan remains!)...

So my main question is:  Are there good wooden kits out there, HECEPOB or otherwise, that are somewhat budget-friendly, and fun to build?  Or are they mostly a pain in the butt?  Would I need special tools/skills to even think about trying one? Any specific brands or types that are recommended?

I've been looking at some Mamoli kits, and would most likely go for a cheap, smaller one with simple rigging.

Any insight into the realm of wooden kits?

Thanks again!

David

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  • Member since
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  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Tuesday, August 28, 2012 11:45 AM

I have built both solid hull and plank-on-bulkhead kits.  There are good ones out there but do your research first about the ship that interests you.  There are also some horrible kits.

Many people argue that you should start with a simple kit and work up to more complex ships. I disagree; in my opinion you should start with a ship that captures your imagination and learn the skills while you work. You are far more likely to complete that ship instead of a simpler one that you are bored with.

I love the Caldercraft/JoTiKa kits in the Nelson's Navy line.  They are quite accurate meaning they actually depict the real ship, and they are easier to build. And, you can find ships ranging in price from the $200's on up.  Model Shipways kits are also quite nice, as are Bluejacket's. I have Corel's HMS Bellona, which is okay, and am working on Constructo's HMS Pandora (which is not so okay).  Unfortunately, the building materials of most companies is less than adequate, particularly with their use of plywood that tends to delaminate when you use it.

I love building these ships, and have developed skills and techniques that help get around some of the errors of the HECEPOB companies. Therefore, I recommend that you try it if you are interested.

Bill

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: Twin Cities of Minnesota
Posted by Don Stauffer on Wednesday, August 29, 2012 9:06 AM

For getting your feet wet with wooden ship models, it is hard to beat the Midwest kits.  These are smaller craft, largest two masts.  But the instructions are super good, and virtually all the wood is precut.  No tricky measuring for tapering planks and fairing lines.  Start with something simple.  The Midwest kits build into very nice looking boats/ships. Most of the models are hard-chined vessels with simplified planking, and the planking is die-cut.

Keep in mind that the imported kits are much more difficult.  Planking is not an easy skill to acquire, and do not choose a kit that requires too much rigging- stay with one or at the most two masts.  There are two daunting jobs in building a plank on bulkhead sailing vessel- the planking and the rigging.  Either task is daunting to a novice, and these tasks lead many to abandon projects. I have seen estimates that the majority of such kits are never finished.

While there are not many solid hull sailing ships left, if you can find one this is another route to getting started. It at least eliminates one of the two major challenges.  If you do insist on a planked model I'd hold out for Model Shipways.

Don Stauffer in Minnesota

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Wednesday, August 29, 2012 9:48 AM

Thanks, guys...it seems there's a lot to consider in the area of wooden kits....

maybe I'll just keep my eyes open, and try to learn what I can about brands, techniques, pitfalls, etc., in regards to wooden kits...

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  • Member since
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  • From: Longmont, Colorado
Posted by Cadet Chuck on Wednesday, August 29, 2012 10:29 PM

My first and only experience in building a wooden ship goes back to my high school days, starting in about 1955.  I finally finished her after graduating from college in the late 60's.  It came out to be a decent model, but as far as I am concerned, took far too much time and fiddling around with nasty little bits and vague plans, basically just a big drawing of the thing.  About ten years ago, I finally threw it out after it self-destructed of old age.  Today's kit ships are probably much nicer, and more expensive, but I do not feel inclined to try another at this stage of the game.

Gimme a pigfoot, and a bottle of beer...

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Thursday, August 30, 2012 2:32 PM

Yeah, from what I understand, that's a typical wooden kit experience, Chuck!  Seems the complex kits, especially the Imported ones, become a huge pain, and people often find them too tedious, or too inaccurate, or just plain screwy, with nonsense instructions, or parts that don't fit.....

Nonetheless, I happened across a craigslist ad today, a gentleman selling an old Corel Berlin 1:40 scale, for a pretty good price....that kit is selling at Model-expo on sale for something like 800 bucks (which seems inflated to me, but anyway)...and he's agreed to sell it to me for $50.  Seriously.  So, it's a good enough deal for me to meet up with him after work, and see how it looks....but for 50 bucks, it's kinda worth it just to try one out, and I happen to dig the Galleon-looking style of the ship.

Now for the bad:  Yes, it's a HECEPOB!  He has done some work to it already, some of the planking has been installed on the hull, but he gave up soon after starting, so there could be some re-do work.  Also, he bough the kit some 20 years ago, and it's been in storage almost all of that time, so the materials could be in bad shape, though he assures me it has held up just fine over the years....

So, I guess I'll see what's what in a few hours, and I'll let you guys know how it goes.

I mean, come on...fifty bucks is fifty bucks, but it's worth taking a look, right?

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Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

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  • Member since
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  • From: Miami, FL
Posted by Felix C. on Thursday, August 30, 2012 2:47 PM

^^Bargain and Corel has nice fittings.

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Thursday, August 30, 2012 10:15 PM

Yeah....it was a great deal!  I bought it.

It definitely needs some re-work...he did a bunch of the planking, and it looks really sloppy, with lots of gaps, and some of them are cracked where they bend...I tested the glue-points, and they can be removed easily.  But I'm going to have to look around for some replacement material so I can re-plank it.

Also, a few pieces of the frame have been broken off at the upper corners.  It's obvious the semi-planked hull has been sitting around for awhile!  But, I think with some planning and a little elbow grease, I can get the planks off and repair the broken frame corners.  And it shouldn't be too hard to find some new planks, right?

Aside from that, everything else is brand-spanking-new!  Plans, instructions, lumber, sails, hundreds of fittings and accessories.... it's all still sealed in original bags...I can't believe the sheer number of fittings, rigging cord, nails, brackets, etc.....it's a HUGE kit!  And the metal pieces are really cool-looking!

I'm in the throes of a pretty serious build right now, so I can't really begin to think about working on the Corel Berlin, but I'll see if I can find replacement planks and keep my mind turning around the possibilities for repairing the frame parts....

Maybe I'll put up a few pics, and see if I can get any advice/feedback...

I can tell you this:  When I decide to get working on this thing, it's going to be a very long project!

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Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
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  • From: Longmont, Colorado
Posted by Cadet Chuck on Thursday, August 30, 2012 10:40 PM

David K- good luck with that build, and please keep us updated on your progress!

Gimme a pigfoot, and a bottle of beer...

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Friday, August 31, 2012 8:54 AM

Certainly....it will be awhile before I can start in on it, but I'll be doing a lot of planning and LEARNING in the meanwhile....which brings me to my next query:

Who can recommend a couple of good books for wooden ship modeling?  

The instructions for the kit are seriously vague and unclear (no doubt because of the poor English translation)....and regardless, it would be pure foolishness to undertake a model like this without doing a ton of reading to gain some understanding of the processes, techniques, tools, sequencing of parts, etc....

Plus, I'm considering just using the plans to scratchbuild the frame that the previous owner started....there are actual-size templates of all the parts, I might as well just make them myself and start from the beginning, instead of deconstructing his shoddy work and trying to repair it.....

Lofty ambitions!

I'm looking at getting Mastini's Ship Modeling Simplified, but there must be some other books that are good and especially in the dept. of planking???

Thanks, guys!

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Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

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  • Member since
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  • From: Twin Cities of Minnesota
Posted by Don Stauffer on Friday, August 31, 2012 9:02 AM

There was a thin paperback by Richard Mansir that was okay on planking, but it is long out of print.  Title was A Modeler's Guide to Hull Construction.   You may be able to find it from an online used book dealer.

Problem is, model ship books don't seem to stay in print that long, except for a few classics.

Don Stauffer in Minnesota

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Friday, August 31, 2012 9:12 AM

Thanks, Don!  I'll look into it!  I get the feeling that planking is part of the reason so many people don't finish their first wooden kit!  It's obviously a major task, and if done incorrectly, could make a person very discouraged....my intent is to learn as much as I can in the next few months, and try some practice runs on a jig (it worked well for my ratline education!)

Also, I know you recommended that a beginner to wood start with something simpler, and I understand the philosophy of it....but for the price I paid for this kit, I just had to do it!  Now let's hope I don't screw it up!  haha

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Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

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  • Member since
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  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Saturday, September 1, 2012 7:09 AM

David,

Model Shipways publishes a nice booklet called "Planking The Built-Up Ship Model; A Technical and Procedural Guide For Modelers Building All Types of Plank-On-Bulkhead and Plank-On Frame Ship Models From Scratch or Kit" by Jim Roberts.

Also, I emphatically disagree with the simpler is better approach for first-time sailing ship modelers.  There was a story once in a ship modeling magazine about an elderly woman who built the Constructo HMS Victory as a first ship experience. She did a fantastic job.  In other words, go for a ship that interests you; you a far, far more likely to finish it.  If you can rig one line, you can rig a thousand.  If you can rig one set of shrouds and ratlines, you can do so for any ship.  Just learn as you go and don't get discouraged when you make a mistake. Even experienced modelers make them.

Bill

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Saturday, September 1, 2012 11:26 AM

Thanks, Bill!  I just bid on a copy of the book you mentioned on eBay, we'll see if I get it.

I'm hopeful I can make a good-looking subject of the Berlin kit....I'm certain it will take a long time, and I have a lot to learn.  But I've been fortunate enough to have the advice and help of the many knowledgeable modelers here, and I'm expecting to ask a lot more questions as things progress!

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   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
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  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Saturday, September 1, 2012 4:19 PM

Here's a couple of photos of my new Corel Berlin 1:40 kit...I really think I may make the already-assembled bulkhead/frame parts from scratch (if I can!), and try to order some new walnut strips to re-plank it...then I can begin from the ...well, the beginning! All the other stuff is still sealed in original bags... $50 bucks, heckuva good deal, since I've seen this kit for sale ranging anywhere from $500 to $1200.... IMG_0371 IMG_0369

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Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
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Posted by Elroy on Saturday, September 1, 2012 6:41 PM

Hi David K. I agree with Warshipguy in that starting off with an easy kit, whatever that is, might work for some, but if you find a ship that takes your fancy, you will enjoy the experience.

In all my years, I still don't know what the difference is between an easy wooden kit and a difficult one. They all require lots of patience.

I actually like Artesania kits because some are almost a scratch build because of the very ordinary instructions. So a lot of planning and a little woodworking  is required, which is okay if that's what floats your boat.

As for historical accuracy, there are so many variables that even the so-called expert modelers cannot agree on what is 'correct' in most cases.

Take opinions with a grain of salt because we all differ on what we find good or otherwise with model brands. For example, I don't mind building some Revell ship kits even though I find the quality of the kits very poor, whereas others think they are brilliant. To each his own, really.

It all boils down to what you fancy and the biggy...patience. Lots of patience.

So, find a ship you like and then chase price and brand.  

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Sunday, September 2, 2012 10:53 PM

As it turns out, I really like the style of the Berlin, and I'm glad I found it...especially at such a great price!  Truth is, I likely would never be able to justify paying retail $$ price for something like that, so I definitely feel fortunate that I have the opportunity to build the kit!!

I have VERY little woodowrking experience, though...so I'm certainly hoping I can do it justice!  I've just bought a couple of books, Planking the Built-up Ship model (recommended by Bill), and Ship Modeling Simplified (seems like a good basic introduction!)...I'm still wokring on my latest plastic kit, so in the meanwhile I can do some reading on wooden techniques, and maybe start accumulating some tools...I'm looking at a scroll saw for Xmas!  Think it'll be handy for making parts!

You can bet I'll have a WIP build log for it once I get started!  Thank goodness for online forums, and for modelers with experience I haven't yet gained!

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Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
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  • From: Twin Cities of Minnesota
Posted by Don Stauffer on Monday, September 3, 2012 8:30 AM

David_K

As it turns out, I really like the style of the Berlin, and I'm glad I found it...especially at such a great price!  Truth is, I likely would never be able to justify paying retail $$ price for something like that, so I definitely feel fortunate that I have the opportunity to build the kit!!

I have VERY little woodowrking experience, though...so I'm certainly hoping I can do it justice!  I've just bought a couple of books, Planking the Built-up Ship model (recommended by Bill), and Ship Modeling Simplified (seems like a good basic introduction!)...I'm still wokring on my latest plastic kit, so in the meanwhile I can do some reading on wooden techniques, and maybe start accumulating some tools...I'm looking at a scroll saw for Xmas!  Think it'll be handy for making parts!

You can bet I'll have a WIP build log for it once I get started!  Thank goodness for online forums, and for modelers with experience I haven't yet gained!

While I do have a fair amount of woodworking experience, I find the most useful skill for models that I get from previous woodworking is making a nice base.  What I mean is, at least for planked hulls, very little normal woodworking skills carry over.  If you do a carved or bread & butter hull from scratch, then you do use a lot of woodworking skills, but for the normal plank on bulkhead kits, not so much.  Skills for those kits are pretty unique, so don't let a lack of previous woodworking bother you.  Also reason why so many of us recommend a pretty simple kit for the first couple of projects.

Don Stauffer in Minnesota

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Monday, September 3, 2012 8:48 AM

David,

There is another excellent book published by Model Shipways called "The Ship modeller's Jackstay".  It goes over other issues with building wood ships.  It is frequently found on eBay, but can be purchased on the Model Expo website.

Bill

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, September 3, 2012 3:19 PM

The full title of the book Bill referred to is The Neophyte Shipmodeler's Jackstay, and the author is George Campbell.  He was a fine writer and draftsman; we've talked many times about his superb plans of the Cutty Sark, and he made the drawings for Longridge's Anatomy of Nelson's Ships.  Campbell's book, China Tea Clippers, is also excellent - and he drew the plans for several nice Model Shipways kits, along with those for the Smithsonian's model of the Constitution.

The Jackstay was published by Model Shipways back in the early '60s, as sort of a general-purpose instruction manual for the company's solid-hull wood kits.  It's one of my favorite ship modeling books.  Some of the references to materials and techniques are sort of antiquated now, but the basic information is perfectly sound.  I can think of few books that cram so much information between two covers - at such a low price.  The information about the history of sailing ships and the basics of rigging is just as valid as it ever was.  A person who learned everything in this book would be well on the way to becoming knowledgeable about ships and ship modeling. 

Highly recommended.  Here's a link:  http://www.modelexpo-online.com/product.asp?ITEMNO=MSB110 .

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Monday, September 3, 2012 7:16 PM

John,

Thank you for the correct title; I had just awaken when I wrote my post.  By the way, has anyone seen Model Expo's price for the Berlin?  They are charging almost $1,300.00! David made an excellent purchase!

I also checked the price at The Age of Sail, an eBay store.  They are selling the Berlin for $649.00, or half the price as Model Expo.  I have compared their prices often; Age of Sail beats Model Expo hands down in pricing!  But, I wonder at the huge disparity between their respective prices.

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Monday, September 3, 2012 10:16 PM

Yes, that is a very wide margin between pricing!

I'll tell you, though...even at 649.00 the Berlin is an expensive kit, by my budgetary standards!  I'm very excited to have gotten such a great deal, even if I do have to retrace a few steps made by the original purchaser...definitely looking forward to the build!

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     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Formerly Bryan, now Arlington, Texas
Posted by CapnMac82 on Monday, September 3, 2012 11:13 PM

Wooden kits are very tactile.  You wind up making a bunch of things that  would be just parts in a plastic kit..

You quickly learn that every seemingly round thing is actually square.  Anything seemingly straight is tapered.  And everything else has a curve to it (and there's a formula or rule-of-thumb for those curves).

Research can be your undoing, too.

Suppose you take on a nice quarter-inch kit, say the Roger Taney.  This is a nicely fitted kit with lots o' stuff (including sailcloth--if a scale 3" thick).  The hull parts are sturdy and well engineered, and go together nicely.  Even has decent wale planking.  After planking out the deck, you are sorting out the deck appliances and houses and the like.  There's an odd box at the stern next to the flag flag staff.  But, it's nothing but a bid blob of wood--which looks as wrong as a 1/48 panzer turret with no hatches, ports of lifting eyes.   Further, that deckhouse has lovely great big windows and skylight--all of which give a good view of the deck inside--this cannot be right.

So you do some research.  Maybe buy a set of the MS Roger Taney plans.  While waiting on the plans, you knock the deckhouse sides loose, and cut a hole in the deck to give some depth in the cabin.  this requires a bit more surgery to the frames, but, it's all good.

Plans come in, and the other plans solve a dilemma--how to the after pair of guns recoil?  Well, they do if the deckhouse is only half as wide as the kit's.

Oh, the blob?  It's a combination, it's the Officer's head and the flag locker., and yes, it should hang over the stern..  So, the hull is a mess.  But the masts look pretty good, the rake is actually closer to the MS plans than the kit's--a good thing since the cheeks and trees and the like will look peculiar not level to the waterline.  

This is the nature of wood kits.  You can decide to add the sheaves to hoist the top[masts up, since the material is solid.  Even better, you started with a nice bit of square stuff, and made it octagonal, then 16-sided, then honed it round where it needs to be.  You learn  to really love treenails to fasten parts together, too.

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Tuesday, September 4, 2012 9:29 AM

I just ordered a copy of The Neophyte Shipmoders Jackstay, by Cambell...5 bucks...I like eBay!

So anyway, I've got a few volumes on the way to help in my comprehension of shipmodeling.

Thanks for the recommendations, guys!

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     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Tuesday, September 4, 2012 2:12 PM

Since several vague references to me and my opinions have come up in this thread (and some more specific ones in other recent threads), I think I'll take this opportunity to state my opinions on the subject once and for all.  (Those who've already read my posts in other threads, and those multitudes who couldn't care less, can stop reading here.)

I would never suggest that anybody pick a model subject that he/she doesn't like.  But it's an indisputable fact many, many people buy big, elaborate kits and fail to finish them.  (The dealers will tell you that the vast majority of such kits never get built.  If that weren't the case, the dealers would go out of business.)  Building a Victory or a Constitution requires some skills that newcomers, by definition, don't have; they have to learn such skills as they go along.  And as they acquire those skills their work gets better - to the point where the things they did to the model six months ago don't look satisfactory any more.  That's a recipe for discouragement (if not clinical depression), and one of the biggest reasons why models don't get finished.  My contention is that it makes more sense to start with a model that will take a few weeks.  The builder won't have time to get depressed about it - and when those few weeks are up he/she will have a nice model to put on the mantle, rather than a half-finished mess that gets put in a closet and forgotten about.  If you can find a ship with one or two masts, with six or eight shrouds on each side, you'll find that a much more congenial introduction to rigging than one with twenty shrouds a side. 

I also wonder how many modelers gravitate toward big, elaborate ships because they aren't familiar with the attractions of smaller ones.  My suggestion: don't spend $500 or $1,000 on a ship-of-the-line or a clipper ship till you've taken a good look at a revenue cutter or a merchant schooner.  They're beautiful, fascinating, important ships.

I also agree with Mr. Stauffer's recommendation of the Midwest small craft series.  A fishing dory is a remarkably attractive, ingenious, and important vessel.  Building a model of one on a large scale will teach a newcomer a great deal about ship modeling.  I've never heard of anybody regretting that he bought and built a Model Shipways Sultana or Phantom instead of a Flying Fish or Constitution.  And I have the impression that a far higher percentage of those simpler kits actually get finished.  (Betcha the percentage of Flying Fishes and Constitutions that get finished is less than ten.)  If the idea of building a dory or a skipjack really turns you off, then for heaven's sake don't do it.  But please don't reject the idea out of hand.

I have four basic reasons for despizing HECEPOBs.  One is that, as we've seen in the posts above, they're so outrageously priced.  (I can't blame Dave for pouncing on that Corel kit; the price is at least in the ballpark of what it's worth.)  The second is that the manufacturers pay so little attention to historical reality.  (I can't agree with the suggestion above that the typical, gross errors to be found in kits from the likes of Corel, Mamoli, Artisania Latina, etc. don't matter because experts don't agree on all the details.  There's just no room for argument:  a lot - not all - of those kits were designed by people who don't know anything about ships.  And, in my opinion, an individual who doesn't know anything about the subject has no business designing a kit for sale to the public - and charging hundreds of dollars for it.)  The third is that the fittings and materials in HECEPOBs  are, in general, lousy.  There are, I'm sure, plenty of exceptions, but the vast majority of the HECEPOBs I've seen feature stringy, shoddy wood, materials that are chosen irrationally (making a deck out of plywood makes no sense whatever), and "bronzed" fittings that don't bear any resemblance to reality.  (I once heard a hobby shop owner proudly explain that a HECEPOB kit included stained glass for the stern windows.  Why in the name of all that's holy would anybody ever put stained glass in a window on board a ship?)  Fourth, the plans and instructions in HECEPOB in general (again, I'm sure there are exceptions) are lousy.  It seems, in fact, that the more you spend on a HECEPOB, the worse the plans and instructions are likely to be.  Lousy, generic instructions are a particularly serious problem for the newcomer.

My favorite wood kit manufacturers are Midwest, Model Shipways, Bluejacket, and Calder/Jotika.  (Caveat:  I've never actually held a Calder/Jotika kit in my hands.  The prices are beyond my reach.  But I've followed the firm's development in print, and it looks to me like one of the best.)  Virtually any of the Midwest kits would be a great project for a newcomer; the other three all offer wide assortments of kits in terms of subject and difficulty.

I have to confess I'm a little confused by Cap'n Mac's post about the Model Shipways Roger B. Taney.  The kit was introduced in the late 1940s; it's been off the market for at least twenty years.  (There was a hint in a ModelExpo ad not long ago that the company may bring it back, but there's not a word about it on the company website.)  It was a fairly typical, good quality, solid-hull wood kit of the period.  The plans were based on the original drawings, which Howard I. Chapelle (the dean of the history of American naval architecture) had dug up in the National Archives.  (He later discovered another set with the Taney's name on them; there are some contradictions.  That's another story. The MS kit followed the earlier set.)  The contents of such kits were, indeed, pretty basic:  a machine carved wood hull (your choice of pine or mahogany), some pre-tapered dowels for the spars, and some pine or, later, basswood sheets, strips, and blocks for the details.  (So far as I know, Model Shipways never included material for sails in its kits - prior to its acquisition by Model Expo.)  And a little box of cast lead-alloy fittings, which typically were pretty basic but accurate in shape.  The instructions were pretty basic, but the plans were excellent.  I don't quite follow Cap'n Mac's reference to the water closets.  There are two of them, and the plans show them accurately:  they don't overhang the sides of the hull.  (I'm not quite sure just how they drained; my guess is that somebody had the job of emptying a bucket several times a day.  But it's rare to find a shipboard toilet with any sort of drainage system before the twentieth century.)  The potential was there for a nice model; the amount of detail incorporated was largely up to the modeler.  (That continues to be one of the big attractions of wood kits, to my notion.)  Model Expo is currently bringing back some of those old Model Shipways solid hull kits (with some improvements).  To my notion that's a happy development.

Enough.  Last caveat:  all the above are, of course, personal opinions, with which anybody has every right to disagree.

P.S.  In typing this post I've made an astounding discovery: the spell checker in the FSM Forum's "rich formatting" program seems to have accepted that HECEPOB is a legitimate word.  I'm deeply honored.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Tuesday, September 4, 2012 2:59 PM

John, you can hardly blame people for often referencing you within a forum where you've coined an acronym that has been accepted by the URL spell-checker!  Well done, sir!  You have arrived! haha

I can certainly understand why people (especially ignorant noobs, such as I) would fall in love with a HECEPOB kit, knowing nothing about wood-model-building, start to build it, make some mistakes to the  detriment of a pretty finished product, become discouraged, and pack it away in their garage for a decade or more, to be finally sold on craigslist at a substantial loss.  That's exactly what happened to the Corel Berlin I now have.

What I don't understand is how that same person could pry open their wallet far enough to scrape out hundreds (or thousands?!?) of dollars on a kit of that type??  It boggles the mind.

You're right....I had to pounce on the deal.

Now, instead of a HECEPOB, I have an ASELPCEPOB (Already Started Exceptionally Low Priced Continental European Plank On Bulkhead)...doesn't have quite the same ring to it....

Anyway, I expect to do some learnin' on the subject of POB wooden kits, so that I can hopefully proceed without much relying on the included instructions, and someday get it finished, with acceptable results!

My question now is:  How do these companies get away with charging so much money for the kits, if people know how bad they are?

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    March 2006
  • From: Bangor, Maine
Posted by alross2 on Tuesday, September 4, 2012 7:09 PM

A few thoughts on wooden ship models based on fifty plus years of building them…

I support John’s observations without reservation.

People who regularly build wooden ship models tend to focus on the process rather than the finished product .  For them, it is the journey that brings the most pleasure and some will spend hundreds of hours on a project - by choice!!!  One could argue that, given the length of time it takes to build a wooden ship model, whether from scratch or a kit, the cost is minimal for the hours of enjoyment experienced.  

Not all wooden ship model kits are like the HECEPOBs.  Some manufacturers have kept pace with the times and made their kits more palatable and familiar to the current crop of modelers.  While the demographic has remained essentially the same for decades (white male over 50), the characteristics of the demographic have changed considerably.   We “baby boomers” grew up assembling plastic kits; our parents (mostly our Dads) grew up building wooden kits - very different skill sets.  In order to appeal to the current demographic, prudent kit manufacturers develop kits that are as assembly-oriented as possible, given the primary medium (wood).  For example, while the nature of most of BlueJacket’s kits developed over the last ten years would be familiar  to modelers from the mid-20th Century, they have been considerably upgraded to keep pace with technology.  Where once there were blocks of wood that needed to be shaped for superstructures there are now laser-cut components that tab and slot together.  Fine details that might have been cast (necessarily) overscale have been replaced with often hundreds of photo-etched brass  pieces.  Instructions that typically comprised a couple pages have morphed into 60-70 page manuals with exploded parts diagrams.  Resin components have replaced some of the more basic cast metal ones.    

Wooden ship model kits are not limited to wooden sailing vessels.  There is a wide range of kits of modern civilian and naval vessels  for those of us who like the more modern stuff.  I have a number of the classic Model Shipways and Marine Model kits like HILDINA (fishing trawler), DESPATCH #9 (tug), and SUB BUSTER (83’ USCG cutter), in my stash .  A couple of newer kits that I’ve built are shown below.

i73.photobucket.com/.../IMG_0939.jpg

i73.photobucket.com/.../C01.jpg

Al Ross  

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Tuesday, September 4, 2012 7:29 PM

I, for one, have built HECEPOB kits and strive for historical accuracy.  As I said earlier, I have built the Corel HMS Bellona and was satisfied that I achieved an historic build.  The materials could have been better, but they were workable. I am currently working on the Constructo HMS Pandora, a kit of which I am less than satisfied due to its plywood decking and badly proportioned hull.  I have thrown out the plywood decks and am busy working out more correct hull proportions. But, I acquired that kit from a neighbor for $75.00, so I basically have an inexpensive set of fittings for my nearly scratch-built hull.

It is interesting that we all have our different philosophies about where to start.  I would never build a Midwest kit because their subjects do not interest me. Nor do fishing schooners and small, coastal ships.  In other words, nice models such as Phantom would never get built by me, but small to large warships would.  I knew enough about them to be successful in my first efforts at wooden ship building, and I know of similar stories among other builders.  Basically, if the model does not interest me, I will not finish it; if it does, I will no matter its complexity.

Bill

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Tuesday, September 4, 2012 8:43 PM

Well, I'm afraid the answer to Dave's last question is the obvious, simple one:  most purchasers don't know how bad the HECEPOBs are.  The majority of them, I think, are bought by beginners or near-beginners who are beguiled by the pretty pictures on the boxes and the websites.  Those folks have no idea what they're getting into - and most of them give up long before the model's finished.  (Model Shipways and Bluejacket kits, as Bill and Al well remember, used to come in plain bright yellow and white boxes, respectively.  Both companies have spent a good deal of money developing more eye-catching packaging in recent years.)

A small suggestion:  take a close look at the "bronzed" fittings in that Corel kit, and compare them objectively with the carvings in the Revell Wasa or the Zvezda "Black Swan."  Wipe from your mind the glitziness of the "bronzing," which is just metallic paint on a cheap metal casting, and ask yourself which actually looks more like a real wood carving.  I'd be willing to bet on the answer.

Well, now that I've made it into the realm of website spell checkers, I guess the sky's the limit.  Next challenge:  Webster's.  Then on to the Oxford English Dictionary.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Tuesday, September 4, 2012 9:43 PM

If HECEPOB makes it into Webster's, I'll eat my hat!  haha

Well, the polarity of the above-mentioned style of kit is obvious...

I realize there will be difficulty, frustration, bewilderment, and a steep learning curve, but I believe I'll give it the ol' college try, anyhow.  

Perhaps I can count on the support and guidance of my fellow (if I can be so bold) modelers to help me on my trial???  

I may need to ask a bunch of the same old questions you've all heard from countless *new guys*, and it will be tough to watch a pigheaded novice go through the motions, despite the sage advice of those wiser than he.

I can deal with a few "I told you so"s, but if the popular consensus is that I'm digging a hole I can't get out of with this Corel kit, I fear I may need to keep my head down, go it alone, and screw it up properly!

Also, with many hours left on the Swan, I have time to reflect on my next endeavor....just because I now own a Corel Berlin, does not mean I am ready to begin it.  

But it is likely to be my next build.:)

I wanted to also respond to John's suggestion...while I'll admit to being a bit starstruck by METAL FITTINGS(!) and the like, I don't see my newest kit as the end-all be-all of quality and detail.  I just think it looks neat, and I want to try a wood kit.  I love the detail and styling of my Wasa and my Black Swan!

BTW, I just finished the last ratline on the Swan tonight!  Yay me!  I really thought tying my own shrouds and ratlines was a huge leap, and something I might be incapable of doing well, but now I feel like I've made a real accomplishment in my skill-building journey!

As always, thanks for the input...I appreciate all of your opinions!

Dave

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

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