HMS Surprise conversion--back on track

Charles;

I have been glancing at this today and can only say this . Darned good job But !  Remember, in the first O'Brian book the origins of Surprise , is , as a war prize captured from the French . I may be wrong on this ,It's been almost twenty years since I read the books.

The French vessels of the time had a fairer forefoot and entry than English ships  .That's why they were faster and sometimes more sea kindly. You're doing great Commodore! Break out the Claret !    T.B.

Thanks TB!  I take your point about O'Brian's Surprise (in both the books and in real life, the Surprise was the ex Unite) . . . for my purposes, since I'm doing a conversion, I'm targeting (mostly) the version of the ship that appeared in the film, which was originally the HMS Rose.

To be candid, given how much I'm still learning about this craft, I'm toggling back and forth between the refreshed Admiralty draughts in Brian Lavery's book The Frigate Surprise and all the reference photos I can get my hands on for the HMS Surprise/Rose, currently in San Diego.  I'm trying to pick those elements that will look best to my eye, and allow me to proudly point at the finished product and say comfortably, "Gentlemen, THAT is the dear Surprise."

Make sense?  Thanks for peeking in, and feel free to offer additional feedback and suggestions as they occur to you.  I'm learning as much from the comments provided by others as I am my own experiences in building this lovely little ship.

Charles

PS--edited in because I forgot to mention that I am indeed fairing in the beakhead of the Lindberg kit.  I've begun that work already, and will tackle the completion of that task after I'm done with the stern.  I haven't posted any shots (that I can recall) of that work in progress, but I'll post some when I have things in a good place.  

So, I've spent the last week or so wrapped around the axle on finishing up the molding assembly that sits under the windows on the transom and quarter galleries.  I tried a number of approaches, most of which I won't bore you with, but they involved first tracing and cutting a profile of the quarter gallery molding at its sternmost point:

To get this, I first held a sheet of thin styrene behind the profile, and traced/shaded with a pencil.  Then I trimmed with a #11 blade and tested for fit, which is shown above.

I tried transferring this onto a piece of styrene strip by scribing and then filing, but had a really hard time getting it right.  I also faced the challenge of ultimately joining this piece onto the model, with the complicated mitering that is called for to get the pieces to match up.

I considered laying up some putty or milliput, and scraping the profile across until I got the shape I desired, but I really hated the downside of not getting it right on the first throw.  ALso, I figured Tamiya putty would pretty much immediately start degrading the profile piece AND i've never worked with milliput so wasn't sure how it would work out if used in situ.

So, I decided to try dragging the profile across some miliput off-model, and see if I could get a workable piece.  First I put together a "rider" for the profile:

Then I rigged a fence over a secured sheet of styrene:

Spread out some milliput, and spent a frustrating bunch of minutes dragging the profile across water-softened milliput.  I ran about a 7 inch length, knowing that I only really needed an inch or so of decent output to make this work:

After letting this set overnight, I trimmed and lifted that workable stretch at the top left, peeled it from the styrene, and then sawed and trimmed to fit.  I laid down a small bed of milliput on the model where I needed to place this piece and firmly pressed it into alignment, squeezing out the excess milliput.  I trimmed and discarded much of this, but used a wetted toothpick (or ten) to attempt to mold the excess at the miter joint.  Here are a couple of shots showing what this looks like (I've done some mild filing at this point, fyi):

Lots of fine-tuning remains (and I have to do the starboard side, of course), but I think I'm on the road to getting this sufficiently close so that the paint job will clearly delineate all of the angles and pieces.

Would love to hear comments and feedback on all of this.  Thanks!

Charles

Looks great to me, but I'm worried about one point. I'm a huge fan of Milliput; it's great for all sorts of modeling jobs. And smearing a little water on it with a fingertip does make it easier to work with. The trouble is that if the water actually permeates the Milliput, the adhesive quality is affected. I've seen watered down Milliput powder and come loose when it dried. If you just rubbed a little water on the surface, though, you should be fine.

One thing that does seem to help, if you're sticking Milliput to styrene: brush a little mild styrene solvent, like Testor's liquid cement, on the plastic. That seems to make the stuff stick better - and quicker.

Great stuff. I especially like the long drying time of 3 or 4 hours. When it's freshly mixed it works like modeling clay. For the last half hour before it hardens off, it has the consistency of hard wax. In that state, the only limiting factor is the modeler.

I bought my first package of Milliput on my first trip to England, in 1978. I used it extensively on my Hancock model. At that time Milliput was almost unknown in the U.S. I talked my boss at the hobby shop to start stocking it. Those were the days. Nowadays lots of mail order houses sell it, and if I'm willing to drive 35 miles I can gat a package at Hobby Lobby.

Professor--

That's very good insight into Milliput.  I wasn't aware of the water-permeation issue, and it's good to know.  I should be fine, thankfully.  For the molded piece, I only used water on the surface to soften it, plus I let it completely set and cure overnight.  

For the mounting/bed underlayment, I put it in dry and only used water at the miter joint.  

And it in indeed great stuff.  I suspect I'll be using it quite a bit between now and the finish line on my little conversion project here.  

Charles

Minor update, plus a sneak preview.

I got much of the work done on the starboard side.  I forgot to take any process shots, so here are a couple of photos of where I am right now, first from the side:

Then, from abaft and underneath:

Still plenty of filling and filing, but I like what I'm seeing.

Now, I wanted to show off some items that I'm miles from needing yet, but I'm greatly looking forward to reaching the point where I can deploy them  The background is this--I've been in touch with John from scaledecks.com, initially to get some of his wood decking.  We corresponded on having him run some blank sheets, with the planking drawn on (i.e., no cutouts, etc., since this project is a conversion and not an existing kit).  But then, it got interesting.  

First, here are a couple of shots of the deck sheets:

As you can see, he ran a couple . . . one with heavier plank lines on them.  Here's a closer in view:

How about that, huh?  I'm looking forward to laying this in once I get to the point where I've scratched in the new spar deck and re-configured the gun deck piece.

To me, though, the really cool part of this developed when John and I started corresponding about the gratings.  The pieces that come with this kit are visibly out of scale, and I haven't had any luck uncovering a brass mesh alternative, since K&S and others seem to have discontinued their products in this category. John decided to give this a try, using the technology and tools at his disposal, and here's what he came up with:

This piece, which is roughly 2" x 4", will provide more than enough material to get the job done on this project.  It's crafted from the same 1/100" stock that John uses for his decks, and, to my eye, it looks terrific.

But this is still a ways off . . . next up, I need to finally fashion the quarter gallery window pieces, and then glue everything together so I can finally close off the stern.

Thanks!

Charles

Really glad to see that John came through, and then some (no less than I would have expected from him) on the decking for your build, which I am ardently following. Can't wait to see the final results for the stern mods!!

Wow.  Sat again: Wow.

Are the grating piereced right through, or is there still some backing there?

If through-and-through, they'd probably need mounting on clear sheet; if not, then a dark substrate would probably be wanted.

Arnie--thanks for tuning in!  And thanks for suggesting I reach out to John in the first place. He's a pleasure to work with.

Cap'n--thanks for your comments, and the grating is cut through and through. My simple notion thus far is that I'll trim to fit, then glue in place on all four sides, which should hold everything level and stable.  Interested to hear more about your substrate comment. Unless I'm thinking about it the wrong way, adding a layer underneath would seem to defeat the purpose of having actual openings in the grating.

Thanks!

Charles

Nice grating there.

One thing to note Charles- if the deck is sweeping fore and aft or has camber across it, the gratings sit flat. So whatever coamings you make up has shape to meet the deck, but should be truly level and flat on its surface.

I'm afraid have to disagree with GMorrison. I've seen plenty of gratings with camber built into them - top and bottom. I wouldn't go so far as to say MOST of them were cambered, but in contemporary plans and models that's what I'm used to seeing. Sometimes the camber is quite pronounced.

Many modelers - and manufacturers - seem to have a misconception of how real wood gratings are usually (I won't say always) made. The "egg crate" arrangement (interlocking notched strips) is unusual. More typically, only the thwart ships members would be notched - and have the deck camber cut into them. The fore-and-aft members would be simple slats, nailed into he notches.

On a small-scale model, of course, all this is irrelevant. It only starts to matter when the scale gets up to 1/64 or 1/48.

By the way, there's no question of whether the deck has camber - at least in the eighteenth century. It does. Whether the kit manufacturer knew that is another question. Quit a few plastic ship kid have flat decks.

If the grating material is 0.010" thick, it's not going to span very far without wanting to be contrary..

Especially whuile spanning over an open hatch opening.

Laminate the material to some clear sheet stock, and you have no problem (and could add camber, too, if needed/wanted).

I was thinking a dark substrate only if the gratings were not perforated right through, and you wanted away to may the thin bits darker.  Laminating to a dark wood or plastic also give strength and something to camber (again, if that was needful).

My other thought was to those gratings where there is nothing to see through to at all.

Like our esteemed Professor, I too have seen gratings built in all manner of ways.  I've generally put most of those down to expediency and/or a lack of knowledge of traditional ways.  Among the latter was the schooner that had off-centerline gratings where the lattice was rectilinear, not square.  The athwartships members matched the deck camber.  The fore-and-aft battens wher half the thickness (only 2.25-2.5" deep) and beved to match the dovetail cuts in the athwartships members.  Quite an intricate bit of wood work, but some spoilt by having a 1/2 thickness treenail (or dowel)piercing the battens.

Capn--

Thanks for clarifying that for me . . . I understand you completely now.  Sounds to me like the clear sheet stock is a solid option.  I'll have to think thru the right glue and method to laminate the grating to the stock, since the glue will likely have a tendency to well up in the openings.  Maybe simple yellow glue, which can be wiped with a wet cloth, and which dries clear anyway?

Thanks to all for the terrific background on camber, etc.!

Charles

Greetings, all!  I've been following this build, and appreciate the kind words from Charles and Arnie.  The wood is about the thickness and stiffness of a business card - more or less.  So if the openings are small, as they would be on this build, the material can easily span that space - particularly if you put a camber into it.  If you secure all four edges, when the glue dries the stiffness will keep the perforated piece in place and in the right shape.  It is backed with fleece fibers (imperceptibly thin and clear, but incredibly strong) that keep the wood from splitting on the grain - so you can actually even put a fair amount of tension on it if you wanted to.

I can't wait to see it in place.  If it works out well, I'll add a variety of sizes to my product line.  In the mean time, if you want an "experimental" piece like Charles, just let me know and I could hook you up!  I'd just need to know if you wanted it in light wood or teak (Ooh - Charles!  Do you want a darker wood grating in TEAK?) and the size of the openings.

I made two differently sized sets for Charles - the finest has 32 holes per inch (meaning the holes are about 1/64 of an inch square, with 1/64 inch strips between them) and one with about 20 holes per inch (holes smaller than 1/32).  I can't go any finer than 1/64 in terms of detail, or the wood gets too brittle from the burning process.

What I really like about the open hatch is that if you have a large opening in the top deck in addition to the hatches (like in the HMS Victory), you'll be able to see the little squares of light coming through the shadows and being cast on the underlying deck.  Coolness!

-- John D. --

John--

Thanks for peeking in!  I didn't even know about the fleece fibers until now. How neat!

And, um, yes please, I'd love a set of the <1/32 grating in teak!  Let me know via email how you want to handle that, but I think darker would work better here.

Thanks for your thought partnership in this, John.

Charles

Indeed, I seconf the commendation for John D. for advancing the state of the art for ship modeling.

Fair enough. Skylights versus gratings. Yachts versus battleships.

The big gratings on the gun decks on both Constitution and Victory, the only remaining original Napoleanic ships I'm aware of- are pretty flat.

Segmented too.

Here's a very quick update.  After weeks and weeks of staring at (fun, necessary) arcana, this was kind of a fun moment--test fitting, and preliminary glue-up of the outboard element of the transom:

The masking tape is there to hold the curve while the glue sets (I've only glued up the central glue points for now, and will glue the outer points later.

FYI, I'm leaving the piece largely untrimmed to that I have maximum freedom as to how I finish up the taffrail, as well as join to the quarter galleries.

Charles

Still doing a LOT of test fitting and prototyping, so that I can make mistakes OFF the model rather than on.  But I did want to share one more picture that put a smile on my face:

Thanks!

Charles

This is becoming like the 1/96 Nimitz build log on here, I simply can't wait for new installments to marvel at the craftsmanship and attention to detail!  That stern looks great from here, very nice work on the windows!

Groot

Well Groot . . . you couldn't have paid me a higher compliment than that.  You're very kind.  I'll point out that the big difference is that Jaguar is clearly an old and accomplished hand at scratchbuilding, and I'm still figuring things out.  

That's the main reason progress is so slow right now . . . I've literally come up with--and discarded--what feels like a dozen or more ways to get all these pieces to fit together on the stern.  Given that, I'm going slow and trying not to make any irreversible decisions along the way until I'm SURE i'm on a workable path.

FYI, my plan is to paint the windows/muntins assembly BEFORE gluing it up, since that'll give a very clean reveal and offset look once it's all together.

Thanks again, Groot . . . I appreciate your words and your interest.  Cheers!

Charles

Finishing up the quarter galleries, so it's back to the "tuning fork" phase of things:

These little guys end up being the balusters between the windows:

I'm doing it the same way I did the transom, which is to trim the top at the correct angle to join the top cap (already in place), then I glue in another strip on the bottom to close the rectangle.  When those are all done, I'll trim uniformly at the bottom and add the bottom cap.

You can also see in the pic above the inboard assembly, on which I'll install the muntins.  I've put one coat of paint on top of primer here to test the color.  Honestly, the color on the HMS Surprise/Rose in San Diego looks a little more orange to my eye, so I may change this up.  Not sure yet, since it may deepen with a second coat.

Here's a look at what one of the prototypes looked like with muntins:

Charles

Charles,

 I have not attempted any type of scratching beyond adding a wire here and there, and popping a resin ejection seat in a cockpit certainly doesn't count, so I certainly find your endeavor initimidating, but I"m learning a ton from you, so thank you!

Groot

Groot--

You're very kind, and I'm delighted you're learning from this project.  Here's one bit of advice for you to try on for size--just buy some stock styrene (strips, sheets, rods) and look for things on your next project that you think you can improve upon.  For me, once I had the stock in hand, it was easier to visualize and start moving  And styrene's cheap, so go for it!

So, I have a few quick update shots.  I've been continuing the work on the entire stern assembly, and experimenting with paints, both on and off the model.  Here's a shot of the starboard quarter gallery, which is almost completely painted (with some touch-up yet to come):

As a comparison, here's a tight crop of the reference photo I'm working from:

And work continues of trimming the transom to size, and layering in additional bits of finish trim.  In this shot you can get a good feel for the outward "bulge" of the transom:

in case you're wondering, there ARE two shades of dark yellow on the piece.  I started out with one color, and then added one I liked better on top.  I'm trying to be consistent, so all of the pieces will get an undercoat of the "wrong" color and a final coat of the approved color.  

Thanks!

Charles

Looking great!  Your cut must have been perfect, because the hull pieces look 100% flush, a perfect fit!  

Super kudos, man.  As previous commenters have said, kudos for getting it right.  Honestly, this is the kit I would love to make, more than any other.  The Surprise from the movie- or the Rose, if you prefer.  I lack the patience or know-how for such an undertaking, but I admire your build greatly.  

Sounds like you've got a great plan, and I certainly look forward to seeing your next steps!

-Brent

Oh wow I was commenting on the wrong page! Lol.

The stern gallery is looking awesome!  Honestly, that's my favorite part of the Surprise- and it looks just great!  I can practically hear Killick's voice chiding Aubrey!

Thanks Brenticus!  I appreciate the kind words. And my advice is don't be daunted--if you have a ship in your mind that you want to build, then just get started. Treat each detail as it's own model and take your time moving thru each step.

Bump.

One of the best threads I can remember with John's input and knowedge.

GMorrison

Bump.

One of the best threads I can remember with John's input and knowedge.

Concur.

The strangest things trigger memory, too.  Ebay recently offered up an item based on my search history.  It was a Navy hard hat (construction style of the type used during UnRep, Anchoring, and the like).  Except the seller had decoraed it for fans of ECSU, our late professor's employer.  Such are memories.

Interesting project!I made mine straight out of the box and painted it to resemble the Surprise.