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A Tale of Two Ships .

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  • Member since
    July, 2014
  • From: Philadelphia Pa
Posted by Nino on Monday, July 31, 2017 9:10 PM

Yes, Oars are only white glued. Plan on making oars closer to scale. The plastic oars are a bit brittle and, so far, trimming'em down is a pain. Sanding not easy and Scraping only slightly better. Looking for other alternatives .Might try Brass rod and flatten the the end into an oar shape... that's 130 oars. Good experiment for planning the 1/75 kit.

  • Member since
    June, 2014
  • From: New Braunfels , Texas
Posted by Tanker - Builder on Tuesday, August 01, 2017 8:34 AM

 Based on this .

 The picture from above with the oars on is odd .The oar blade doesn't seem any wider than the shaft . I know that is odd .That being the case Why not use fine Skewers made from Bamboo ? I have used those for even masts on all kinds of ships .

 They can be sanded and will take paint well .

  • Member since
    July, 2014
  • From: Philadelphia Pa
Posted by Nino on Friday, August 11, 2017 8:06 PM

Tanker - Builder

 Based on this .

 The picture from above with the oars on is odd .The oar blade doesn't seem any wider than the shaft . I know that is odd .That being the case Why not use fine Skewers made from Bamboo ? I have used those for even masts on all kinds of ships .

 They can be sanded and will take paint well .

 

 

 I found that .020" rod seems to be correct size for this scale. Crimping the end seems to give it an "oar" appearance.  At this scale any wood material would (Pun intended) just be splinters. 

 I did not continue with the build as I was not in the mood after hearing of Dr John Tilleys passing.

  I guess I missed the Professor by a few days as I had finished a cute little Glencoe Viking ship (3.5" or maybe 1/250 -1/400?) and I put Horns on the figurehead with the intent to Give him a laugh or be corrected on Viking facts as regards a Replica. He sure gave this site respectability.

      So, here it is,  a bit too late. ( That's gonna bother me for a long time...)

A Ship that should not be built-like this

  • Member since
    June, 2014
  • From: New Braunfels , Texas
Posted by Tanker - Builder on Tuesday, August 22, 2017 10:10 AM

Nino;

 The best way to honor John Tilley and all you learned from him , Is to keep building away . He would NOT want you to stop on the account that he went on an Eternal Voyage .

   Now that said , do your best and yes , John would've gotten a kick out of your Horns , I know I did ! T.B.      P.S. Is that the ship fielded by the " Texas Longhorns " when they first played ? LOL.LOL.

  • Member since
    July, 2014
  • From: Philadelphia Pa
Posted by Nino on Friday, September 08, 2017 3:00 PM

         I'm back. Much of my delay is due to so many varied interpretations of Roman Warships. It's Tough to pick out what seems reasonable/probable. I was also completing an old Pyro Racing Yawl that was missing parts and deciding the best thing to do with a Pyro USS Monitor that has its Turret in the wrong spot.

             I did a bit of work on the hull by sanding down the outrigger extensions. I felt they overhung the hull by too much. I based this on my reading of John Coates work and other references in Conway's The Age of the Galley, Landstron's The Ship, and Pictures of Sculptures, Carvings, and Coins that depict Roman warships. A lot of variation in all these depictions. I also plan to work on the Keel a bit. Kit version looks too wide.

     I got a replacement Camera and have been testing it out.. Works Great. Much better for Macro focusing.

Overhead view with Outriggers reduced:Trireme overhead view

      Once I get the basic layout done as far as Deck "Furniture", Hull size, Oar size/placement and little details such as the Hypozomata (undergirding to prevent hogging), Outrigger covering,  and paint color, I can use this model as my Reference for that 1/75 trireme.

     There's a bunch of little things I'd like to correct on my scratch building but after all, this is only a test.

  • Member since
    June, 2014
  • From: New Braunfels , Texas
Posted by Tanker - Builder on Friday, September 22, 2017 12:58 PM

Hmmm;

 Well , what's the problem ? This ship looks good at this point .Thanks for the picture .T.B.

  • Member since
    July, 2014
  • From: Philadelphia Pa
Posted by Nino on Friday, September 22, 2017 1:20 PM

 

     I stripped the "test" paint off and I picked up a very inexpensive airbrush to learn on. Currently I'm planning to add a few details under the deck. They won't be seen but it's good practice and they may be visible on a larger scale.

      I took a bit of a break to finish up a 1/700 Arleigh Burke. Replaced the cheap Rigging I originally used with Streched Sprue. Thanks Jim Baumann!

I discovered some extra inspiration:

Check the March 3rd, 2017 entry.

   Nino.

 

  • Member since
    December, 2017
Posted by Hondamax717 on Wednesday, December 20, 2017 7:26 AM

Nino
I discovered some extra inspiration:

Check the March 3rd, 2017 entry.

   Nino.

Nino,

That's my "work in progress", based on joining two of the Zvedza Greek Triremes.  I'm using the work done by Coates and Morrisson as my basis.  From the left over bits I think I can make a Trihemiolia.  I need to get some paint inside before I start on the next level.

Max

  • Member since
    July, 2014
  • From: Philadelphia Pa
Posted by Nino on Thursday, December 21, 2017 1:08 PM

Hi Max,

   Yes, I really liked what you are doing. That is terrific detail on the ships internal bracing and seating structure and must be very time consuming I am sure.

     I have multiple Roman and Greek Bireme/Triremes in my stash including a Zvezda Greek kit.  As you can see I have determined that the old Heller Biremes can be made into Triremes and I'm sure the IMAI (ERTL,Aoshima, Minicraft) version can be also as per John Tilleys recommendation to just add oars. However, I rather suspect the IMAI Greek kit can be made to look like a better Roman Warship of pre-100B.C. than the IMAI Roman version.  I too am deep into the same authors you mentioned. My references now include several other books but also pictures of Roman coins and artwork as well as the usual carvings.

   My intent is to first get better at kit building and painting so I'm going a bit slow. I do plan to convert that 1/75 Heller Roman Imperator into a Trireme once I practice doing some small modifications to the IMAI versions. As I mentiond I do have the Zvezda Greek Warship and I hope to duplicate what you have done regarding the Fantastic hull work.

   Recently while getting our old Christmas decorations from my second attic, (it's a big house),  I re-discoverd a bunch of unbuilt kits. There was a really old kit of an Aurora Roman Bireme and a Aurora Viking  kit w/rowers. It's ashame these kits do not much resemble the current conceptions of those warships but perhaps they can be turned into something else from another time period.  I mention these kits because The Aurora Viking Rowers seem to be usable for the Revell Viking kit. They are pretty poor castings but maybe after an X-acto workout and some sanding and painting they may be okay. I wonder if anyone noticed this possibility since the Aurora and Revell Viking kits are listed at about the same scale. Using these Aurora figures on the Heller 1/60 Drakkar versions could be possible too.

     I bet you can make another small ship from the Zvezda left-over "bits". It would be a fun exercise. I kind of did the same.  Here's that picture of my Trireme hull in front with the left-over bits making a small single oar-banked Liburna. Note that the original 1/225 Heller Bireme kit fits exactly in between these 2 as to size. You get a Liburna, a Birreme and a Trireme out of just 3 kits!  (You will need more oars!)

 

Happy Holidays to you Max.  I hope to see more of your inspirational build soon.

      Nino. 

  

 Edit:    If anyone is interested in the old Aurora Viking kit figures, the rowers appear to be about 1/64 in scale, I believe that Smer, Atlantis and Modelist have used the same Aurora molding and these kits have the same figures.  (The Modelist kit figures are pretty good- no flash. whereas my very old Aurora Famous Fighters Viking ship figures have flash!)

  • Member since
    September, 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Thursday, December 21, 2017 2:45 PM

Umm. Those Vikings are pretty fat little fellas. I long ago tossed that model, but I think they’d be big for the Revell kit.

The geometry would be hit-or-miss as the Aurora rowers sit in wells in the deck, on benches flush with the deck. In reality and if using the Revell kit, the rowers sat on their sea chests and were quite a bit higher in the boat.

But I think the helmsman and other standing sailors might be useful. When I looked around for a crew for my ship, I found some wargame stuff, but it ran to money and they weren’t really right.

So I made some out of Sculpey.

  • Member since
    December, 2017
Posted by Hondamax717 on Thursday, December 21, 2017 5:02 PM

Nino,

Thanks for the response.  I too have a selection of the various old galley kits, including all of those you have named.  My intention was to take each one in turn and see what could be reasonably created from it in 1/72 (ish) scale.  I am aiming (eventually) to be able to show a series from Penteconter through to some of the larger Polyremes.  I think I can do Quadriremes and Quinqiremes using the Zvezda hulls as a basis, as they are all essentially the same model (whether sold as Carthaginian, Roman or Ancient Greek), just with different bows, decks and fittings and sterns.

Seeing your post (via another blog) has given me the impetus to get some paint on the inside, which I need to do before I can do any more of the internal structure.  Plus I have a load of double curved supports for the top rowing whale and the deck to fabricate.  I intend to try and display it in a shipshed, so propped up under cover.

Have you seen the Dusek 1/72 scale wooden Trireme and Bireme kits?  The Trireme seems to be very faithful to Morrisson and Coates.

I will post here when I've got some colour on the inside.

Hope you have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

Regards,

 

Max

P.S.  I have several boxes of the Orion Roman Sailors which I was going to use if I had decided to show the Trireme manned.  There are some figures that "might" work as Vikings, bearing in mind that they wouldn't necessarily be armoured, etc. if they were rowing.  Have you had a look at them?  

Some of the Orion Roman Sailors

  • Member since
    July, 2014
  • From: Philadelphia Pa
Posted by Nino on Friday, December 22, 2017 3:12 AM

 

Max,

     I picked up a box of the Orion Roman sailors last year. The set is terrific. The seated rowers could easily be Greek or Roman.  I suppose a few could pass as Viking but I think the Vikings would be more completely dressed. I suppose we could put a horned Helmut on'em and call it done-LOL...

     The Dusek 1/72 kits seem to be very nice.  Their Trireme looks out of my league but their Greek Bireme seems doable for someone of my limited experience.  Add a metal Ram and it would be a perfect model.  They sure look to be the most accurate kit replicas of ancient warships so far although Dusek dating these kits to represent the 500BC time frame seems wishful thinking. I would like to try their Bireme but I only have experience with one wooden kit so far and that one is not completed yet. I would buy their kit for a future build but I'm not ready to collect more kits as I cannot afford a divorce. 

     I like the 1/72 scale so these kits could be displayed with an IMAI (Academy, Ertl, Minicraft) warship so you could have a 50BC-31BC Roman Bireme from an IMAI mold and a 6th century BC Greek Bireme by Dursk. If the Zvezda Kits got some corrections they could be used to fill in the Trireme/Quadrireme /Quinqireme kit voids.  The Heller Imperator and Aurora Roman Bireme kits need more extensive fixing I suspect.

     The various iterations of the Roman Polyremes is hard to imagine. Hundreds and Hundreds of rowers on vessels so long you'd think they would hog so bad they'd fold up amidships. Too bad we seem to have so many stylized versions in coins and stone, although some of the Stone Carvings seem very believable and compare favorably to the IMAI Roman warship.

      I have a few other sources I have been reading. Although only partially complete, they are quite detailed histories of Rome and cover the War at sea quite well.

Greek and Roman naval warfare; a study of strategy, tactics, ...    Rodgers, William Ledyard, 1860-1944
 
And for those who want to try their hand at a plastic Roman warship the following kits may be available:
 
Academy 1/250 (actually 1/72ish)  (IMAI mold  13.3" long)
Academy 1/72  (IMAI mold 13.3" long) Same as above.
Aoshima  no scale listed  (1/144 to 1/250) (IMAI mold 6 ¾” long)
Aurora  1/80 Roman Bireme  11 1/4" long
B.U.M  1/72 (Barcelona Universal Models)  ) (see "Edit" below)
ERTL  1/45  (actually 1/72ish)  ( IMAI mold 13.3" long )
ERTL  1/90 ( possibly 1/144 to 1/250)  (IMAI mold)  6 ¾" long
Heller  1/75
Heller  1/225  7.4” long
IMAI  no scale listed  1/72ish  13.3” long
IMAI no scale listed ( 1/144 to 1/250 suggested)  6 ¾ “ long
Minicraft  1/72ish   (IMAI mold 13.3” long)
Modelist  1/72ish   (copy of Aurora.)
Zvezda  1/72   
 
     Nino.
 
Edit:  The BUM version I had beieved to be an Aurora copy but box art could depict an IMAI mold kit. I am hoping to see the parts and will update this post accordingly.
Edit:  BUM is Aurora copy!
  • Member since
    June, 2014
  • From: New Braunfels , Texas
Posted by Tanker - Builder on Friday, December 22, 2017 8:15 AM

Hi;

 Here's a little info that seems to have evaded everyone . The longer the ship the more she could Hog .They DID have hardware in place for that .It was usually out of sight beneath the first deck .And , NO , the Vikings did NOT wear horns on their helmets . That was some romantic notion from somewhere to make them look firecer !

  • Member since
    December, 2017
Posted by Hondamax717 on Friday, December 22, 2017 1:55 PM

Not sure where the idea of "evaded" came from.  The Triremes and in fact all the different ancient war galleys (and probably most of the other ships of the period) had a hypozomata (a so called "undergirding") which was run bow to stern and placed under tension to counter-act hogging.  It was a critical part of the ship.

 

  • Member since
    July, 2014
  • From: Philadelphia Pa
Posted by Nino on Sunday, December 24, 2017 9:22 PM

Max,

     That Hogging effect convinced me to install a couple of thicker "Threads" under the top deck. I had posted the Picture below some months back.  I added the bottom picture so the cable is more noticable. I figured at this scale I would only put it in for "show". On the Heller 1/75 kit I will try to install it in a more believable manor.

  Hey, TB.  You've been around awhile.  Where did they belay the ends of the Cable and how did they adjust tension? 

    Nino.

 P.S.  And Merry Christmas Fellas.  Thanks for keeping me on my toes.

P.P.S.  Just kidding Gary.  I think the Roman galleys were a bit before your time. But that's not to say you wouldn't know...

  • Member since
    June, 2014
  • From: New Braunfels , Texas
Posted by Tanker - Builder on Wednesday, December 27, 2017 6:01 AM

Oh My;

   I am not that old , But here goes my best Marine Engineer take . The Cables would've been fed through an eye built into the stem near its meeting point with the keel .Then another fitting in the keel itself . On both ends .

 These would've been brought together like a triangle . This then would've been twisted somewhere midships with a pawl and winch like assembly . Not big remember . But it would've been tensioned and then a wedge hammered in to lock it in place . After so many voyages I assume it would've been replaced

    I think we need to cogitate here a moment . Hmmm , Lemme see . We did do that on the Ark , more than once in forty days and nights . It was all the weight of all those animals you know .

  • Member since
    July, 2014
  • From: Philadelphia Pa
Posted by Nino on Thursday, December 28, 2017 12:08 PM

Thanks TB.

      I thought you were on the Tanker that supplied the fuel for the Ark.

     It's a shame no Historian chisled out some pictures of the inner workings of their ships. These anchient Ship builders must have been smarter then us since they apparently built great sea going vessels consistantly, and without plans. Now, we've got plans and we've got the ships that break in half  (insert photo here), ya know..."best-laid plans of mice and men often go awry".

 Regarding the Tanker Builders for the above ship...

  Quote: "But it would've been tensioned and then a wedge hammered in to lock it in place ".

I guess they forgot their "wedgie"...

       TB we all love ya.  Please post more pictures.

     Nino

  • Member since
    September, 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Thursday, December 28, 2017 12:39 PM

  • Member since
    September, 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Thursday, December 28, 2017 12:40 PM

If memory serves, the sloped deckhouse of the CSS Virginia owed as much to containing a fore-aft hogging truss as it did ballistics.

EDIT: I must be thinking of another ship. Virginia had centerline cannons fore and aft and a single centered stack, so that suggests no major structure on the centerline, unless considering the casemate itself. . Curious now which ships I'm thinking of.

  • Member since
    July, 2014
  • From: Philadelphia Pa
Posted by Nino on Thursday, December 28, 2017 1:24 PM

GM Thank you. That's the perfect picture to depict early anti-hogging.  Is that an Egyptian representation?

  And Thank you for the inside info on the CSS Virginia (Merrimac to you Lindberg kit builders).  I am learning more and more about the designers/master builders of wooden ships.  It was most definately an art (with a bit of science and trial and error).

    Nino

 

  • Member since
    July, 2014
  • From: Philadelphia Pa
Posted by Nino on Friday, January 05, 2018 9:48 AM

An update..

    My wife has a health issue that requires us to make daily Hospital visits. Those visits have now started and are 8 hours long so my posting will diminish accordingly. I will, however, be reading all those books I'd picked up from recomendations on the Ship forum so maybe I will be able to make up for any missing posts with an over-abundance of research updates. (I'll try to keep'em short, for a change.)

     We have had a difficult time since August so my model building took a big back seat.   There is good news in that all will be well by the end of January after this last Therapy.

      Jim.

 

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