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Post War Fletchers

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  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Saturday, October 31, 2020 10:30 AM

If I'm reading your question literally, you are thinking to get scale screws cast from brass. 
Ive had a few over the years, and read a bit from other modelers who buy them. 
I don't think they are worth it.

limited selection, mediocre casting quality. And like brass cannons, the actual material finish of the model part is not close to accurate.

Im happy with 3D printed ones. They come in a wide variety of sizes and blade counts. They are easy to clean up.

And per Ed's suggestion, PE ones are somewhat surprisingly successful.

My Midway has four- inboard pair are five bladed left-right; outboard are four bladed left-right. They were cut from a big selection on Gold Medals Revell Carriers 1/540ish sheet. You set the twist direction and pitch and shape a little curve into each blade. Cut the cone from the plastic kit parts or just make some up.

Hopefully your audience will spend time admiring all of the detail you put on the deck mounted stuff and not on the underwater stuff.

 

Bill

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: Mansfield, TX
Posted by EdGrune on Saturday, October 31, 2020 8:46 AM

Per the Floating Drydock Fletcher Plan Book, the props are three-bladed, 11' 6" diameter.    Only one of the two props is shown, but comparing pictures and plans in the FD book and in Raven's Fletcher class book, the props are the same.   Right hand twist.

There are a set of PE prop blades included in the Flagship Models 1:350 photoetch detail set.  Cut apart the hub and insert the flat blade piece.   Twist as desired.

I have found an effective way to replicate bright brass on plastic without the over scale metallic particles showing is to first paint with a Molotow chrome marker (ink based).   Then go back and overspray with Tamiya clear yellow, perhaps adding a tad of clear orange.

Naval screws are not really brass. That are a bronze alloy.   I use Reaper MSP Old Bronze paint on my props where I don't really want the bright brass effect

  • Member since
    September 2020
Posted by MarvinK9 on Friday, October 30, 2020 7:20 PM

Sorry again was taking time out to get my house ready for winter. While I'm waiting on a reply from the veterans administration can someone point me in the right direction. I'm thinking on getting some brass screws to put on this model but I'm having no luck in finding anything. I know that I need one of each right hand and left hand but again I can t seem to find anything also which side would they go on, remember you are talking to a submariner , we only had one screw and the number of blades and pitch are classified. I know that they should be  bladed, but other than the l.h. and r.h. not sure on then size.

Thanks again for every ones help, I plan to record the build and take photos so ill post them when I get done.

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: Mansfield, TX
Posted by EdGrune on Sunday, October 4, 2020 4:35 PM

Black Cat Models out of France said today that they will be adding a set of twin 3"/50 guns to their offerings of 1:350 scale 3D printed armament.   These will be just the things needed to go into the waist gun tubs.    

If you have not seen what Ben @ Black Cat is doing you need to head over to blackcatmodels.eu and check them out

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Formerly Bryan, now Arlington, Texas
Posted by CapnMac82 on Saturday, October 3, 2020 12:51 PM

It's what we do here, both in this forum, and a model ship builders.

We pour over photos, compare details, collect esoteric sources, buy books.

Part of that is in the nature of ships, even when built to a standard, they are never identical, and the differences are significant, sometimes minor, M4A3 versos M4A3E2; sometimes more major--JagdPanzer IV versus Panzer IV.

Which is no helped by some of the kit manufacturers offering us a Hurricane and calling it a Spitfire.

Shared knowledge is in creased, which makes us all better.

  • Member since
    September 2020
Posted by MarvinK9 on Friday, October 2, 2020 10:15 AM

Thanks this helps slot, I didn't know all that and when I looked at the funnels I only saw the uptake vents and thought that is what was being discussed. I now know better. And that's coming from a bubble head(submarine), the only surface ship I was on, or crossed over, was the tender. So thanks for the information and explanation that was very helpful. Now I just have to wait for parts to come in and make sure I have all I need before I start the build.  Again thanks to everyone who has helped on this.

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Formerly Bryan, now Arlington, Texas
Posted by CapnMac82 on Thursday, October 1, 2020 7:42 PM

Funnels are complicated beasts.  We tend to focus on the outstide--which is only natural.

Funnels often include the intake trunking to the boilers, which hleps preheat the air being pumped in.

There are various steam and similar exhausts run up the inside of the outside structural shape we see.

The actual "chimney" part of the boiler exhause is only a tit more than 25%  of the stack volume.

Starting in the 20s, the naval fashion began to be that stacks were self-supporting, eliminating the need for guy wire rigging.  In Naval use that structure became a place to mount more things, like platforms, masts, antennae and the like.

Once you assemble the stringers and purlins and the like to support the stack, the skin of the outside can be about any shape.  When USS Fletcher was designed, USN ships were meant to be streamlined, aerodynamic, anythign to coax another knot of speed out and comply with the various Washington Naval Treaties.

So, Fletcher (and the Tamiya kit) have the poly elliptical plan form funnels.  The "round" bridge reall isn't, it's actually elliptical, too.  Per the naval architect for Fltech that shape was worth something like 1.5kts for top speed.  And presented no delay in peacetime paced building schedules.

Bethlehem's layout team looked at the number of Fletchers needed and the expected delivery times and made a number of suggestion for streamlining construction time.  Not all were accepted, but the scheme to use almost parallel sides on the funnels ant radii only fore and aft was accepted, on both East and West coasts.

This meant bending fewer plates and having to cut fewer curved stringers and frames, too.  Also, the forward intake louver could be made flat, and not curved, and the after intake to a single curve radius, and not a double radius.

Bethlehem estimated this took two weeks off the building time for a Fletcher.

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: Mansfield, TX
Posted by EdGrune on Thursday, October 1, 2020 9:12 AM

This is a 3D printed aft funnel for an early Fletcher, in 1:48 scale.   The forward will be similar, with differences to the platform (if any) and external piping.   The platform configuration is largely dependent on construction/refit period and yard.

There are uptake vents on either side of the funnel.   On the Tamiya kit they are separate pieces,  on The Sullivans they are molded as part of the funnel.    The Tamiya look the better of the two,  IMO.  There should be a rectangular casing at the bottom of the funnel which attaches to the superstructure, and the rectangle blends to an oval shape.

The discussion has been 'slab side' vs round.   There were some minor construction yard differences to whether the funnel would have a flat panel on either side or would have a more rounded shape.   The external shape differnces are minimal and indistinct in 1:350 scale and smaller (IMO - YMMV).

Since you have the Tamiya Fletcher as the base kit, use their funnels and fill the platform slot(s) needed for the early searchlight platform.   Add a new postwar searchlight platform to the aft funnel for the single light.   

  • Member since
    September 2020
Posted by MarvinK9 on Wednesday, September 30, 2020 11:52 AM

There was a question about the funnels, something about there shape I was looking at a bunch of photos and the picture on the box for the USA Fletcher and I think the flat areas on the funnels are some type of filter or screen of some type. What do you all think.  I have seen things like that when I was in and had to cross over the tender.

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Formerly Bryan, now Arlington, Texas
Posted by CapnMac82 on Saturday, September 26, 2020 6:00 PM

Took the 1954 photo, and clipped out some usefull detail.

Using my Mk 1 Eyeballs, that looks like a clipped edge above the liferafts, so the kit platform will probably be correct.

Note how the bridge has been given "windows"--per my father--, those are plexiglass panels set in sheet metal frames which rattle and sway in the wind.  They have joint between that admit spray and rain, too.  The cover above varies, on some ships it's a metal frame with a canvas dodger stretched over it, on some ships simple sheetmetal went over the frame.  The wisdth matches the front face of the bridge combing.  It's open at both sides, too.

Note, too, than only Mount 51 has the "cubby" for the gun captain, will wager that Mount 55 matches that.

Perhaps this will help

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Formerly Bryan, now Arlington, Texas
Posted by CapnMac82 on Saturday, September 26, 2020 5:40 PM

MarvinK9
One thing I see is how to fix the 01 level to take in the Hedgehogs, and finding some ready service lockers, as well as the other items to detail it. still need to find out about her stacks since their was a question on that.

The 20mm mount platform was circular, with a flat outboard to keep it from projecting over the side.

On some ships upgunned to dual 20mm mounts, the platform were--sometimes--made round to allow better footing for the additional ammo man.

When the hedgehogs were introduced, the generally just dropped on the base for the 20mm.  Sometimes the deck was made round, sometimes left square.  You need dockyard photos to know.

From just memory L'Arsenal makes a nice hedgehog with a RS box in 1/350; there are other makers (cannot remember if Model Monkey has an edition of this).  The Hedgehog was quite small, and the reload box was similarly small. 

At General Quarters, the HH was only manned by a talker and a rating (who might be anyone on the ship, really).  So, it did not need a lot of room.

Twinning was built by Bethlehem, and Bethlem, east and west, used that flattened section to build the stacks faster.  Bath and the various Navy Yards stuck to the Navy plans wit hthe mostly-elliptical stack plan (aerodynamics were a big "thing" in ship design when Fletcher was first designed, that's why they started with round bridges).

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Formerly Bryan, now Arlington, Texas
Posted by CapnMac82 on Saturday, September 26, 2020 5:28 PM

EdGrune
... and the photos posted by Rick Davis for you on Modelwarships show MK9 streamlined depth charges both on the stern racks and at the waist

Pretty much, after '55 or so, all DC ought to be streamlined--Mk 9s are easier to source than some of the exotic Marks (like the 23 Mod 1) which are virtually the same shape (until you get to 1/96 or 1/72 or larger).

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: Mansfield, TX
Posted by EdGrune on Friday, September 25, 2020 7:02 PM

... and the photos posted by Rick Davis for you on Modelwarships show MK9 streamlined depth charges both on the stern racks and at the waist

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: Mansfield, TX
Posted by EdGrune on Friday, September 25, 2020 10:30 AM

I will refer you back to Captain Mac's posting of 9/22.   His third photo is after the 51 refit during which she received the tripod mast, among other changes.   She had 1 quintuple torpedo mount without the crew protection shield (tuna fish can).  This was on the after portion of the midship deckhouse, forward of 5"/38 mount #3 (mount 53).    His second photo (color) is after a later refit which lost the quint torpedo mount entirely, and added triple torpedo launchers P&S at the waist, replacing the 3" guns.

  • Member since
    September 2020
Posted by MarvinK9 on Friday, September 25, 2020 10:16 AM

Just a couple of questions did she have the Mk6/7 or Mk9 depth charges after her refit in 51. And how many torpedo tubes did she have then.

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Thursday, September 24, 2020 9:00 PM

We live for this stuff here.

 

Bill

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    September 2020
Posted by MarvinK9 on Thursday, September 24, 2020 6:39 PM

Sorry for taking so long to get back to everyone, digging up information on my dad. I remember him telling me a story about taking out a gun enplacement in wonson harbor. Which if I read things right that was sometime after coming out of the yards in 51 but by 52. So that will be the time frame I'm setting on. So with that in mind I need to start focusing on that and get photos of the end of the yard period and after she went back to sea. So help in that time frame would be appreciated. I also want to thank those of you that have shared with me, that was a big help. One thing I see is how to fix the 01 level to take in the Hedgehogs, and finding some ready service lockers, as well as the other items to detail it. still need to find out about her stacks since their was a question on that.

Tags: 1951 time
  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Formerly Bryan, now Arlington, Texas
Posted by CapnMac82 on Wednesday, September 23, 2020 5:15 PM

EdGrune
His first is dated 1950 in the caption on NAVSOURCE

And, naturally, a couple days late the Navsorce link is blanked out--sigh.

The guns were Mk 22 "50 in Mount Mk 32, they features two rotary auto-loading magazines per each, with a quick reload rack at the base of the platform.  Each mount needed 10 sailors, but one of thouse manned the Mk 52 Director.  Each twin mount had a circular radar dish which was used to track the outgoing PX fused shells into the director-designated target.  Pointer and trainer were only really required for anti-boat surface-to-surface fires.

That had the same basering diameter as a quad 40, but weight over runs during development meant they could only be a replacement on a 2 for 3 basis.

Far more of a success than the Weapon Able ASW that was used in LantFlt so much.  It was just a hugely over-sized hedgehog, and was a source of much grief and misery (apparently no one thought to test them being covered in North Atlantic Ice, and needing to be de-iced with hammers adn the like).

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Formerly Bryan, now Arlington, Texas
Posted by CapnMac82 on Wednesday, September 23, 2020 5:04 PM

ddp59

CapnMac82, you certain about the "slab side" funnels & the hedgehog platforms?

http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=8105&start=1940

 

 
Yep.
See the group of sailors there on the 01 deck--Mount 52 is to one side and the port hedgehog is on the other.  There will be another on the starboard side.
 
It's hard to see, but those stacks are not eliptical in section, they have a "flat" tangent to the fore and after radii.
 
She will have a pair fo Mk 32 3"50 mounts with Mk 52 directors between the funnels.  As a five-turret Fletcher, she does not have the third Mk32 on the after deckhouse (hard to tell what is up there in this photo).  The Mk 32 replaced quad 40s on a 2 for 3 basis, so it was a question of keeping the fifth 5" or havign the radar-guided 3" mount.
 
Zoomin in, there are six K guns down the side, and (probably) two stern tracks (in the late 50 refit which mounted the Mk 28 triple torpedo tubes replacing the 5x21, deleted the K guns, the starboard stern rack would be the retained one--the port would be removed for a towable sonar unit (which was not always installed).
 
This phot is more clear about the after portion of the ship.
 
Note that shadow on both stacks wher ethe profile goes flat.  Note that the turrets retain their deck gray top painting, which was something of a WesPac tradition for a while.
Note that there is only a reload rack for the starboard stern rack.
That after deckhouse may have  aMk 52 director in it, but, it's hard to tell in the photo.
 
This image is probably of USS Boyd, one of about 5 Fletchers converted into "Squadron Leaders" with a Commodore's cabin replacign the starboard whaleboat.  My father served on Boyd, so I'm passing familiar, and Floating Drydock published the USN plan set.  Boyd got the full anti-kamikase refit, three Mk 32, dropping mount 53, rebuilt sternhouse, commodore cabin and the rest.  In 1958 Boyd got the ASW refit where the 5x21 torpedo tubes were deleted for dual triple Mk 28, all the K guns deleted, and only the starboard stern rack.
 
  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Wednesday, September 23, 2020 9:53 AM

Navsource had her listed for a refit at Mare Island from March to June 1951. Then again in late 1952 where according to Mr. Davis she received the tripod mast, per DDP's link.

That lands later in the War, your father's service could be before, during, after or a combination of the above. You of course would know.

 

Bill

 

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    April 2005
Posted by ddp59 on Wednesday, September 23, 2020 9:35 AM

CapnMac82, you certain about the "slab side" funnels & the hedgehog platforms?

http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=8105&start=1940

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: Mansfield, TX
Posted by EdGrune on Wednesday, September 23, 2020 5:33 AM

There's much to look at in the Captain's photos.  

His first is dated 1950 in the caption on NAVSOURCE.  Pole mast, 21" torpedo tube mount with tuna fish can, two sets of DC tracks

The third picture is captioned mid to late 50s.  Tripod mast, 21" torpedo mount without can.  Looks like it may still have the twin DC tracks or one may be swapped for a towed countermeasure station. .   Bet you there are 3"/50 (or is it 3"/70) guns at the waist

The second picture is later.   Hedgehogs with reload boxes present. Tripod mast. 21" toroedo gone. Triple torpedo tube mounted on waist. Towed CM station present.   Second DC track is iffy

This shows some of the problems of photo interpretation.    You need to pick a date and reference and work from that.  With luck there may be several pix which are close together, like the refit pix on Navsource which you can cobble together some assumptions

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Formerly Bryan, now Arlington, Texas
Posted by CapnMac82 on Tuesday, September 22, 2020 6:38 PM

Twinning was a west coast Bethlehem build, so, she needs "slab side" funnels--these are not called out well as AM items.

Those funnels can be spotted down to 1/700 scale

She appears to have lost seachlight platforms for the dual quad 40 mountings, at least in 1944. 

In post war guise she was a 5 turret tripod mast ship

 

Hedgehog launchers go on the 01 deck where the forward 20mm mounts were installed.

Nice write up of WWII service:  http://www.destroyerhistory.org/fletcherclass/usstwining/

In the 50s:

  • Member since
    October 2019
  • From: New Braunfels, Texas
Posted by Tanker-Builder on Monday, September 21, 2020 12:35 PM

Whoops!

       Remember this . Those were retractable. The Kidd's was!

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Monday, September 21, 2020 9:34 AM

In which, she is listed as undergoing a major refit from 3.03.51 to 6.07.51 at Mare Island.

Several good dockside photos there. 

 

Bill

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    April 2005
Posted by ddp59 on Monday, September 21, 2020 9:25 AM
  • Member since
    September 2020
Posted by MarvinK9 on Monday, September 21, 2020 6:58 AM

She was the USS Twining DD540

  • Member since
    September 2020
Posted by MarvinK9 on Monday, September 21, 2020 6:55 AM

The ship my dad was on is the USS Twining DD540 I know she was sold after korea then sunk.

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: Mansfield, TX
Posted by EdGrune on Monday, September 21, 2020 6:24 AM

MarvinK9

Thanks everyone, I have checked out model monkey and picked up a lot from them. The only thing that I was not able to pick up was the square bridged funnels,not sure if they are different or not.  


Thats where the kit mingling comes in. The early round bridges had a searchlight platform on the aft funnel    Square bridges, and round bridge refits with guns at the waist, the platform was moved to the forward funnel to improve firing arcs    

Swapping them is possible, but the piping is different as are the platform shapes    (Although platform shapes varied by builders yard - check your references)   IIRC, the grills on the sides of the Trumpeter kit are soft & indistinct    Sand them & replace with the grills from Tamiya   Kit-mingling    

 

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