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USS Arizona Paint Help...

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  • Member since
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  • From: Mooresville, NC
USS Arizona Paint Help...
Posted by piflo1 on Friday, August 31, 2007 2:33 PM

I posted this in the painting section but haven't gotten a response so I thought I would post here. 

 Hello All,

In the link below is a model of the Arizona built by Louis Carabott. Does anyone know how this was achieved? I really like the look of it.

http://www.bismarck-class.dk/shipmodels/american_models/arizonacarabott.html

  • Member since
    January, 2006
  • From: Sarasota, FL
Posted by RedCorvette on Friday, August 31, 2007 3:19 PM

Don't know how he did it, but it's way too grungy for my taste, especially when compared to any photos I've ever seen.  Maybe skillful weathering, but it just doesn't look right to me.

Also, I thought the upper gun deck was painted steel, not wood.

Just my $0.02

Mark

FSM Charter Subscriber

  • Member since
    August, 2005
  • From: Mansfield, TX
Posted by EdGrune on Friday, August 31, 2007 4:09 PM

Its painted to represent a 5-D Dark Gray Measure 1 camouflage.   But the base color looks too light to be 5-D,  most likely he used Gunship Gray or similar.  Once it was painted he went in and applied a dark wash to make shadows.  Then when that was dry he went back with an extensive drybrushing with what looks to be Neutral Gray. 

Effective,  it makes the details pop. 

Yes the steel decks should be 5-D also.

  • Member since
    December, 2002
Posted by Dreadnought52 on Friday, August 31, 2007 4:16 PM
 piflo1 wrote:

I posted this in the painting section but haven't gotten a response so I thought I would post here. 

 Hello All,

In the link below is a model of the Arizona built by Louis Carabott. Does anyone know how this was achieved? I really like the look of it.

http://www.bismarck-class.dk/shipmodels/american_models/arizonacarabott.html



While this is an extremely interesting interpretation of the paint/color of Arizona it is not accurate for the time. Arizona had recently been repainted (here's where it gets hairy though as there are two schools of thought on WHAT color she was repainted in dark 5-D gray or a very dark blue). In either case the paint would have been fresh. Pre-war battleships were very well maintained in all the navies as they were prime assets of their navies. The wear and tear indicated on the model in the photos would have been exceptional.

It would appear from just looking at the photos posted that the technique utilized shading with oils or pastels along with drybrushing. This is easy to overdo in the small scales that ship models are usually built in. These techniques are widely used in armor and aircraft modeling but less so in ship modeling as many choose to make their ships as new or as built. However, in dioramas, such weathering is essential to make the scene convincing. Countershading will help to reveal detail along with drybrushing on even a builder's model. WS
  • Member since
    June, 2006
  • From: Michigan
Posted by ps1scw on Friday, August 31, 2007 5:14 PM

She is not underway, the National Colors should raised on the fantail not aloft and the Union Jack should also be raised.  Her lines are singled-up but the call for "underway - shift colors" does not get sounded until all lines are cast off.

A little un-squared away for the peacetime Navy.

  • Member since
    February, 2016
Posted by alumni72 on Friday, August 31, 2007 8:11 PM
I'm no expert (and the diorama looks great - if not historically accurate) but I was thinking the figures seemed to be a bit large for the scale of the ship.  I've seen photos of men inside the barrels of 16" guns - the Arizona's were 14" but that wouldn't have been that much smaller - but what really made me think that the figures are too large is the idea that they would never have been able to fit into the 'office' of the boat crane - it's way too tiny for the figures being used.
  • Member since
    March, 2007
  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Saturday, September 01, 2007 3:10 AM
Piflo1 this is a model probably built by a tank modeler- its an old technique called drybrushing that makes sense at their scale (1:35), although IMHO its been superceded, but does not translate to something ten times smaller, or navy subject.
  • Member since
    April, 2006
  • From: denver, colorado
Posted by waynec on Saturday, September 08, 2007 11:09 PM

according to new findings released 07dec2006, she was mediterannean blue with red turret tops to signy the float plane squadron

http://starbulletin.com/2006/12/07/news/story04.html

i will be at nautical research guild convnetion next week and one of the talks is on the arizona color scheme.

"Nikto ne Zabyt . Nichto ne Zabyto.

"No one is forgotten. Nothing is forgotten."

 

  • Member since
    February, 2016
Posted by alumni72 on Sunday, September 09, 2007 1:15 AM

Thanks for the link to that article, Wayne - it was very interesting.

It makes one think - all the things you see every day that you take for granted, and afterward can't remember the obvious.  Like the building you drive past every day for years, and a month after they tear it down you have trouble remembering what business used to be there.

I know that personally, without thinking about it, I find it hard to believe that such details as ship ant turret-top colors wouldn't be remembered by any number of folks.  You think about how many swabbies had to paint those colors on, and undoubtedly griped about doing it, and you find it hard to believe that none of them would remember it later on.  I know that a good number of those poor souls liost their lives on Dec. 7th, but there were thousands of others who lived to a ripe old age.  It just goes to show that such things get pushed to the side to make room for more important concepts, and then comes the fog of old age to create confusion and just plain forgetting.  When you discuss it in a forum like this, however, the variety of viewpoints help to make it clear that there are any number of reasons why such relatively minor details are lost to time.

I remember this topic was under discussion late last year when the new information was released - just before I joined the forums.  It was interesting then, and it's still just as interesting now.  And it makes me want to build the entire battle line just to see that rainbow of turret-tops all lined up.  That must have been some sight.

I also think that - now that it's getting much too late to do anything about it - it would have been interesting to interview Japanese pilots who were there to see what they remember - those colors must have made very nice aiming points.  I'd imagine the Japanese would have remembered those turret colors, if not the main ships' colors, if only because they probably weren't expecting to see such a rainbow when they arrived at Pearl.  I know at least one survived the war - Mitsuo Fuchida died in 1976, and I would imagine that at least one or two other Pearl Harbor aircrew survived the war as well.

  • Member since
    March, 2005
  • From: West Virginia, USA
Posted by mfsob on Sunday, September 09, 2007 1:45 PM
*shakes head in amazement* You'd think after 60-plus years ... but it is nice to have a piece of paper to hang your hat on when making definitive statements. If only there had been ONE color aerial photo taken at that time ...
  • Member since
    March, 2004
Posted by Gerarddm on Sunday, September 09, 2007 2:02 PM
I have never been a fan of weathering for weathering's sake. Techniques that MIGHT look good on armor don't translate well to ships. The model is nicely done in terms of craft, but craft that serves no purpose vis a vis representing what the 1:1 ship might have looked like.
Gerard> WA State Current: 1/700 What-If Railgun Battlecruiser 1/700 Admiralty COURAGEOUS battlecruiser
  • Member since
    April, 2006
  • From: denver, colorado
Posted by waynec on Sunday, September 09, 2007 5:00 PM

to don

haven't you seen all the japanese pictures of pearl harbor. all the ships are grey <grin>. there were different color tops for different ships. i too am amazed this didn't come out sooner. i know there has been discussions on how many bombs hit. the current number is two, one starboard aft off no. 3 turret into the quarterdeck and the bomb hit forward. if you read enough books on pearl harbor you will find eyewitness accounts of a torpedo hitting arizona, going under vestal and a bomb going down the stack. i think i read one hostory of 5 or 6 bombs hitting. and a bomb hit did not cause the foremast to collapse forward as it did.

320-240-ps-arizona-rising-sun-kanji.jpg 3D The Last Sunrise picture by waynec_kits

"Nikto ne Zabyt . Nichto ne Zabyto.

"No one is forgotten. Nothing is forgotten."

 

  • Member since
    April, 2006
  • From: denver, colorado
Posted by waynec on Saturday, September 15, 2007 11:19 AM

update from nautical resaerch guild convention 151100sep07 cst.

just finished hearing talk on arizona color schemes from don pruel. he built the new model at the arizona memorial museum first displayed on 07dec2006. in early 41 she was 5D dark gray with 5L light gray tops. 5D dark gray is almost black. she was repainted in late 1941 when the navy got rid of 5D dark gray. on 07dec41 she was 5S sea blue with 5L tops, a black boot and antifouling red bottom. the tops of nos. 1, 2, 4 gun turrets were insignia red.

apparently the sailors called 5S sea blue mediterranean blue. floquil has a mediterannean blue but that is a british color and very blue. the color blue on the sited newspaper article is too light and too blue. i believe his article will be published in the nautical research guild journal next month.

"Nikto ne Zabyt . Nichto ne Zabyto.

"No one is forgotten. Nothing is forgotten."

 

  • Member since
    June, 2006
  • From: Michigan
Posted by ps1scw on Saturday, October 27, 2007 4:15 PM
 waynec wrote:

according to new findings released 07dec2006, she was mediterannean blue with red turret tops to signy the float plane squadron

http://starbulletin.com/2006/12/07/news/story04.html

i will be at nautical research guild convnetion next week and one of the talks is on the arizona color scheme.

What squadron did the Pennsylvania belong to?  It looks like She also had the turret tops painted.  Too bad it's impossible to identify colors from this photo, you could argue both dark grey or dark blue.

  • Member since
    April, 2006
  • From: denver, colorado
Posted by waynec on Saturday, October 27, 2007 4:42 PM

it looks like pennsylvania is still painted in the early'41 coloor scheme of 5D dark gray, which apparently faded somewhat quickly.

New color scheme pearl harbor ships (and i don't remember where i got this)

BATDIV 1 -- Red (solid)

BATDIV 2 -- White (Solid)

BATDIV 3 -- Blue (Solid)

BATDIV 4 -- Black (Solid)

BATDIV 5 -- Yellow (Solid)

CRUDIV 2 -- Yellow (Double stripe)

CRUDIV 3 -- Red (double stripe)

CRUDIV 4 -- Blue (single stripe)

CRUDIV 5 -- Yellow (single stripe)

CRUDIV 6 -- Black (single stripe)

CRUDIV 7 -- Green (single stripe)

CRUDIV 8 -- Black (double stripe)

CRUDIV 9 -- Green (double stripe)

Light Cruisers

USS Detroit & Raleigh -- Blue (double stripe)

USS Richmond -- Red (double stripe)

USS Augusta and Omaha -- Red (single stripe)

In addition,  battleships and cruisers were to paint the top of their after turret or enclosed mount to correspond with the section colors of their embarked aircraft.   The colors were red, white, blue, black, green, and yellow for the first, second, third, fourth, fifth, and sixth sections (respectively).

Commander in Chief, U.S. Fleet
    Admiral Husband E. "Mustapha" Kimmel

Battle Force (Task Force 1)
    Vice Admiral William S. Pye

  Battleships, Battle Force
    RADM Walter S. Anderson

   Battleship Division 1
    RADM Issac C. Kidd
    BB-36 Nevada (Nevada Class)-Captain Francis W. Scanland
    BB-38 Pennsylvania (Pennsylvania Class)-Captain Charles M. "Saavy" Cooke, Jr.
    BB-39 Arizona (Pennsylvania Class)-Captain Franklin Van Valkenburg

   Battleship Division 2
    BB-37 Oklahoma (Nevada Class)-Captain Howard D. "Ping" Bode
    BB-43 Tennessee (Tennessee Class)
    BB-44 California (Tennessee Class)-Captain Joel W. Bunkley

   Battleship Division 4
    RADM Walter S. Anderson
    BB-46 Maryland (Colorado Class)-Captain D.C. Godwin
    BB-48 West Virginia (Colorado Class)-Captain Mervyn Bennion 
 

"Nikto ne Zabyt . Nichto ne Zabyto.

"No one is forgotten. Nothing is forgotten."

 

  • Member since
    June, 2006
  • From: Michigan
Posted by ps1scw on Saturday, October 27, 2007 4:45 PM

So the Penn is dark grey with light grey tops.  Looks like Yellow or White on Her turret tops.

Do you have a link or a list of all ships with thier cooresponding colors?

  • Member since
    June, 2006
  • From: Michigan
Posted by ps1scw on Saturday, October 27, 2007 4:53 PM

Found this link: Order of Battle

http://www.navweaps.com/index_oob/OOB_WWII_Pacific/OOB_WWII_Pearl_Harbor.htm

According to this I was mistaken, looks like the Pennsylvania would have RED tops.

  • Member since
    April, 2006
  • From: denver, colorado
Posted by waynec on Saturday, October 27, 2007 4:56 PM
 ps1scw wrote:

Found this link: Order of Battle

http://www.navweaps.com/index_oob/OOB_WWII_Pacific/OOB_WWII_Pearl_Harbor.htm

According to this I was mistaken, looks like the Pennsylvania would have RED tops.

that's where i got the ob info posted abve

"Nikto ne Zabyt . Nichto ne Zabyto.

"No one is forgotten. Nothing is forgotten."

 

  • Member since
    August, 2005
  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Sunday, October 28, 2007 12:27 AM

Hi Guys. I'm one of the researchers that worked on the Arizona paint scheme, although I was more ancilatory... the true "Blue Crew" was originally Don Montgomery and Steve Wiper, with Don Preul and Ron Smith working on it when Don was hired to build the model and asked Ron to keep his eyes open as he researched.

That said, the "med blue" term came from one of the Kingfisher observers who was familiar with aircraft colors such as those of the RAF more so than the surface ship paint.

Regarding the comment about the "gun Deck" color; if you're referring to the deck above the main deck that the boats and open mounts are on, this WAS wood and was not painted at any time in Arizona's career. Otherwise, metal decking (such as those on levels above this) were to be painted 5-D or 5-S, depending on time frame.

 I've got a couple other links of use for you.

The first will show you the turret markings. Arizona is a fluke in some regards as all of hers are the same color, but most of the others were not. The first two turrets denoted the division, and the #4 turret denoted which ship in the division it was. This way, spotters could tell which ship was theres when directing fire. Pennsy had two whites and a red. Cruisers did not have solid colors and the research on this has not been finished yet. Lines, squares, and circles were some of the patterns that were used in the same colors.

http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Ships/S19-7/PearlHarborBatDivMarkings.html

The second link is a bunch of Navy Ship camouflage documents I've scanned in and posted as HTML (Including Pearl Harbor ships), so if you want to do some more reading feel free; I'm adding to it as I can: 

http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Ships/S19-7/

 

Tracy White Researcher@Large

  • Member since
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  • From: Michigan
Posted by ps1scw on Monday, October 29, 2007 11:48 AM
How different was the very dark grey vs. the very dark blue color?
  • Member since
    August, 2005
  • From: Mansfield, TX
Posted by EdGrune on Monday, October 29, 2007 12:20 PM

 ps1scw wrote:
How different was the very dark grey vs. the very dark blue color?

Using the close-enough is good-enough color chip call-outs from the Pennsylvania thread

The 5-D is the color cited for the long-standing Measure 1 color callout.   Comparing this chip with my Mk1 eyeball and the Snyder & Short color chip - I think its too blue in chroma but the tone value (i.e. darkness) is about right.  5-D was a very dark blue-gray.

The 5-S Sea Blue is a much less dark tone, more of a mid-range.  Again, this chip is not the standard S&S chipset and is only close-enough for discussion purposes.

The whole kerfuffle is whether the Arizona was in 'standard, traditional' Measure 1 with 5-D or if she had been painted into a 'non-standard' Measure 1 with 5-S.   Remember that the mast tops were still Light Gray (5-L).  The 5-L in the first chip is totally bogus.

  • Member since
    August, 2005
  • From: Mansfield, TX
Posted by EdGrune on Monday, October 29, 2007 12:29 PM

 ps1scw wrote:
How different was the very dark grey vs. the very dark blue color?

Using the close-enough is good-enough color chip call-outs from the Pennsylvania thread

The 5-D is the color cited for the long-standing Measure 1 color callout.   Comparing this chip with my Mk1 eyeball and the Snyder & Short color chip - I think its too blue in chroma but the tone value (i.e. darkness) is about right.  5-D was a very dark blue-gray.

The 5-S Sea Blue is a much less dark tone, more of a mid-range.  Again, this chip is not the standard S&S chipset and is only close-enough for discussion purposes.

The whole kerfuffle is whether the Arizona was in 'standard, traditional' Measure 1 with 5-D or if she had been painted into a 'non-standard' Measure 1 with 5-S.   Remember that the mast tops were still Light Gray (5-L).  The 5-L in the first chip is totally bogus.

  • Member since
    June, 2004
  • From: Detroit City Baby!
Posted by ScaleModelingByChris on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 3:17 PM

Here's how I did my Arizona, Went with the new color turret tops.

 

 

NEVER FORGET 12-7-41 & 9-11-01 http://www.smbchobby.com http://usscimarron.com
  • Member since
    February, 2016
Posted by alumni72 on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 4:43 PM

I like the way that looks.  You get tired of seeing the same old thing time after time - Arizona in dark gray or Arizona in light gray.  This gives it more color, and in addition to being more accurate historically, it gives it a touch of the more colorful 30's schemes found on aircraft.  It just seems right.

Of course, it also looks different enough that we'll need to get used to it.  But it's a change for the better.

  • Member since
    June, 2006
  • From: Michigan
Posted by ps1scw on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 6:32 PM

That dark grey looks great, what color did you use for that?  I like the turret tops as well, I'd love to see somebody do a battleline with the different color turrets.

http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Ships/S19-7/PearlHarborBatDivMarkings.html

 

  • Member since
    November, 2006
Posted by 65 air cav vn on Friday, November 02, 2007 11:52 AM

What color red was used on Arizona's turret tops? Thanks Hank

Support the Troops  Garry Owen

  • Member since
    February, 2016
Posted by alumni72 on Friday, November 02, 2007 12:01 PM
If I had to guess I'd say Insignia Red, which would match the red used by the air units, which the turret top colors were intended to aid.
  • Member since
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Posted by 65 air cav vn on Friday, November 02, 2007 4:59 PM
where on the aircraft from arizona would the red paint be placed? Thanks Hank Support the troops   Garry Owen
  • Member since
    February, 2016
Posted by alumni72 on Friday, November 02, 2007 9:09 PM

I'm hoping two things -

1: that this helps, and 2: that this pic isn't too big ...

 

For the BBs the vertical and the horizontal tail surfaces would be painted in the division's color.  I don't have a list of division colors handy, but I think there was one earlier in this thread.

From the illustrations I've seen (mostly photos) both the upper and lower horizontal surfaces were painted the division color, as well as the entire fuselage from the rudder hinge back.  If you want me to post a photo as an example to clarify that, I will - but I'd rather not because the binding of my copy of Navy Air Colors is weakening from the strain of flattening it out on the scanner bed.

  • Member since
    August, 2005
  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Saturday, November 03, 2007 12:09 AM

The aircraft wouldn't have had the colors painted on them at the time of the Attack on Pearl Harbor, but they might have earlier in the year when the OS2U-1s were attached to the BBs.  A February 1941 directive canceled the colored tails but I'm not sure how quickly it was applied.

You can see photographs of Arizona's Kingfishers in September '41 on this Navsource's BB-39 page about 3/4 of the way down.

Tracy White Researcher@Large

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