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I need help! I dont know what i did wrong

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  • Member since
    February, 2016
I need help! I dont know what i did wrong
Posted by lowfly on Monday, April 08, 2019 10:28 AM

I am hoping someone can help me.  I am currently building the Revell 1/48th scale B-25 and have run into a snag.  I have painted the base color with Vallajo Model Air Acrylics. I than did 1 coat of Testors Gloss Lacquer (https://www.ebay.com/p/Testors-Spray-Lacquer-3oz-Glosscote-1261/2254495571?iid=202237232440&chn=ps) and applied my decals and than applied a second coat of the Testors Spray Lacquer. 

 

I wanted to try a couple of weathering techniques for this kit so i tried a normal wash with Windsor & newtons oils and turpintine to clean it off.  The wash went on fine but when i went to clean it off with the turpintine it melted my base color paint job down to bae plastic!  

So, Then i tried Tamiya's panel line accent as a pin wash and Testors Enamel Thinner to clean it off and got the same results. 

What did i do wrong? i like the resluts of these weathering techniques but it didnt work for me. I can fix the paint job as i did it on a part of the model that isnt really seen.  Any help will be appriciated!

  • Member since
    November, 2018
Posted by oldermodelguy on Tuesday, April 09, 2019 1:30 PM

How long has the various steps been allowed to cure before the wash went on and turp ?

  • Member since
    March, 2007
  • From: Northeast WA State
Posted by armornut on Tuesday, April 09, 2019 3:01 PM

   I think OMG is on the right track, ya have to let each coat dry completely before adding more coats.

    It sounds like you have the layering sequence correct, ie, enamals over acrylics, visa versa, so drying time between steps appears to be next logical variable.

we're modelers it's what we do

  • Member since
    March, 2003
  • From: Western North Carolina
Posted by Tojo72 on Tuesday, April 09, 2019 3:39 PM
Could be that the turpentine was too hot

  • Member since
    November, 2008
  • From: Central Florida
Posted by plasticjunkie on Tuesday, April 09, 2019 5:49 PM

You cannot use a solvent type wash over a solvent finish. You need a barrier coat as in a clear acrylic so the solvent wash will not affect it. Caution here cuz the acrylic needs some curing time. I’m exrTra  cautious and wait several days to let things cure. No need to rush and ruin your work. Just my .02. 

I recommend Flory Washes. They are water/clay based and safe over anything.

 
 

 GIFMaker.org_jy_Ayj_O

 

 

Too many models to build, not enough time in a lifetime!!

  • Member since
    April, 2003
  • From: USA
Posted by keavdog on Tuesday, April 09, 2019 9:13 PM

I use turpenoid for oil washes

Thanks,

John

  • Member since
    February, 2016
Posted by lowfly on Tuesday, April 09, 2019 10:41 PM

The base coat was allowed to dry for at least three days.  The gloss coat was allowed to dry 24 hours for the first coat and 2 days for the second. i think the turp was too hot. I am gonna stick with an acrylic based gloss coat and acrylic based weathering washes.  

Thanks again for all your help. i will be resanding, priming and repainting the affected area and will keep you all posted. Again...thanks for the help

 

  • Member since
    August, 2005
  • From: Sydney, Australia
Posted by Phil_H on Tuesday, April 09, 2019 11:47 PM

lowfly
tried a normal wash with Windsor & newtons oils and turpintine to clean it off

What sort of turpentine did you use? 

If it was a "natural" (gum) turpentine distilled from wood sap, it would likely eat through pretty much anything. It also tends not to dry cleanly, leaving things sticky for quite some time.

Mineral turpentine, mineral spirits and odorless mineral spirits are much more suitable for this purpose. As noted above though, these solvents over an enamel finish will eat through it.  

  • Member since
    July, 2013
Posted by modelmaker66 on Wednesday, April 10, 2019 12:25 AM

I se acrylics for paint, seal with future, weather with oils and use a little lighter fluid for cleanup.

  • Member since
    May, 2013
  • From: Indiana, USA
Posted by Greg on Wednesday, April 10, 2019 8:25 AM

lowfly
I am gonna stick with an acrylic based gloss coat and acrylic based weathering washes.

No, you don't want to do that. As PJ said above, you don't want to use a solvent-based wash over a solvent based gloss coat. Same applies to Acrylic....you don't want to use acrylic wash over an acrylic gloss (unless you wait a month to cure then you can do almost anything)

Dissimilar layers. Water-based (or acrylic) wash over solvent based gloss, or solvent-based wash over water-based (or acrylic) gloss.

-Greg

  • Member since
    February, 2016
Posted by lowfly on Wednesday, April 10, 2019 5:58 PM

Ok...from what i am seeing this is how i should go .....

 

1. Acrylic Base color

2. Lacquer Gloss (before and after decals)

3. Acrylic based washes

4. Lacquer Matte

 

Is this right?

 

  • Member since
    February, 2016
Posted by lowfly on Wednesday, April 10, 2019 5:59 PM

Phil_H

 

 
lowfly
tried a normal wash with Windsor & newtons oils and turpintine to clean it off. I believe that is WAS from wood sap. I think the turpintine i bought was too hot.

 

What sort of turpentine did you use? 

If it was a "natural" (gum) turpentine distilled from wood sap, it would likely eat through pretty much anything. It also tends not to dry cleanly, leaving things sticky for quite some time.

Mineral turpentine, mineral spirits and odorless mineral spirits are much more suitable for this purpose. As noted above though, these solvents over an enamel finish will eat through it.  

 

  • Member since
    November, 2008
  • From: Central Florida
Posted by plasticjunkie on Wednesday, April 10, 2019 6:34 PM

lowfly

Ok...from what i am seeing this is how i should go .....

 

1. Acrylic Base color

2. Lacquer Gloss (before and after decals)

3. Acrylic based washes

4. Lacquer Matte

 

Is this right?

 

 

 

Yes but why gloss lacquer? Using Lacquer over acrylics is safe.......as long as you let the acrylic cure at least several days. Then spray light clear lacquer coats so they dry quick.

You can use Alclad Aqua Gloss which is acrylic and is safe to continue the next day. It sprays very smooth and is VERY tough. I use it or Future for glossing my finishes in prep for decals and pin washes.

Just remember to let the acrylic cure at least 2-3 days before spraying clea lacque otherwise the acrylic will crack.

 GIFMaker.org_jy_Ayj_O

 

 

Too many models to build, not enough time in a lifetime!!

  • Member since
    February, 2016
Posted by lowfly on Thursday, April 11, 2019 12:33 PM

I usually do let it cure for several days (I dont work on the model everyday) and the Testors lacquer products because they are cheap and available in my area. I have had good results with them. I dont mind using acrylic bases weathering washes as long as the Lacquer coats wont melt with the thinnners for acylics. Guess i need to do some testing. 

 

 

  • Member since
    May, 2013
  • From: Indiana, USA
Posted by Greg on Thursday, April 11, 2019 12:45 PM

lowfly
as long as the Lacquer coats wont melt with the thinnners for acylics.

They won't.

edit: they shouldn't!

Just FYI, lots of folk don't care for acrylic washes and prefer to work with oil or solvent-based washes (in which case, an acrylic clear undercoat or the typical "Future coat" would be appropriate. I think that might be why PJ asked about the lacquer clear coat.

Though I have little experience with acrylic washes, I'm a user of Flory washes (water and clay based), so I too use Lacquer clear gloss quite a bit. You're not alone.

-Greg

  • Member since
    February, 2016
Posted by lowfly on Thursday, April 11, 2019 8:32 PM

So, After fixing the offending underwing. I think im gonna switch to Acrylic clear coat. I am noticing little imperfections with the Lacquer clear coat that i havent noticed before (Cracking, lifting off with tape that sort of thing) I have heard good thing about this product

https://www.ebay.com/p/SC-Johnson-Pledge-Floor-Care-Multi-Surface-Finish-27-Oz/710117324?thm=1000&chn=ps

 

Can the above product be sprayed through an airbrush safely?

 

So the below should now be the order? 

Acrylic base coat

Acrylic gloss clear (Before and after decals)

Oil based weathering 

Acrylic Matte Coat

 

Sorry for all the questions but i am seriously confused by the results i am getting. I didnt expect these results and i dont want to ruin 3 months of work

  • Member since
    November, 2008
  • From: Central Florida
Posted by plasticjunkie on Thursday, April 11, 2019 9:20 PM

You have the order correct. Future can be sprayed or hand brushed. I hand brush it all the time. It dries fast and levels leaving no brush marks. Remember to let it cure 3-4 days.

 GIFMaker.org_jy_Ayj_O

 

 

Too many models to build, not enough time in a lifetime!!

  • Member since
    February, 2016
Posted by lowfly on Friday, April 12, 2019 8:33 PM

Ok so i found this product

https://www.pledge.com/en-us/products/pledge-floor-gloss

It seems to be what i am after for a gloss coat. I have some questions about it. 

 

1. What products CANNOT be used with this IE Turpintine, Tamiya X-20A Etc Etc

2. Can i used it over my existing gloss coat which is the Testors Lacquer. 

3. What products do i use to do a pin wash or a sludge wash and what products do i used to clean up said washes?

 

Im sorry to be asking so many questions but this subject has always confused me

Thanks again for ALL the help. It is much apprciaited!

  • Member since
    November, 2018
Posted by oldermodelguy on Saturday, April 13, 2019 4:05 PM

lowfly

Yes, in a word. I shoot it straight as it comes from the bottle. Make sure your color coat is well cured first. I've shot Pledge with even a .25 needle/nozzle on test pieces, though I usually use a larger one for broad coverage. Straight up, no thinner for "imo" best results.

Edit: make sure it's the one with no lemon ( lemon is marked on the front of the bottle, if you don't see it it doesn't have it). Secondly that isn't the best price in that link you supplied, my local super store ( Stop and Shop grocery store with pharmacy and hardware) has it for under $9.

  • Member since
    January, 2013
Posted by BlackSheepTwoOneFour on Saturday, April 13, 2019 8:28 PM

lowfly

Ok so i found this product

https://www.pledge.com/en-us/products/pledge-floor-gloss

It seems to be what i am after for a gloss coat. I have some questions about it. 

 

1. What products CANNOT be used with this IE Turpintine, Tamiya X-20A Etc Etc

2. Can i used it over my existing gloss coat which is the Testors Lacquer. 

3. What products do i use to do a pin wash or a sludge wash and what products do i used to clean up said washes?

 

Im sorry to be asking so many questions but this subject has always confused me

Thanks again for ALL the help. It is much apprciaited!

 

 

Since you’re a beginner, let me dumb it down to make it easy for you. Ditch the turpentine...... for now.

Start using the paint brand’s thinner to your paint brand you’re working with to start. Meaning use Tamiya thinner when using Tamiya acrylics, Testors Universal Acrylic (green bottle) for Testors Model Master acrylics, Testors regular thinner for their enamel line, Mission Model brand thinner when using their line of acrylics and so on. 

Gain a bit of experience before using generic alternative thinners. Learn which ones are hot and which ones are safe. My go-to clearcoat is Rustoleum brand (enamel based) in rattle can.

If you insist on using alternative thinners, do test it on a mule kit first. Keep in mind lacquer is the hottest of thinners. ALWAYS test first on a mule kit. This way you can see how it reacts to different paints. If it’s too hot, use something else. Like I said, use the paint brand’s own thinner. Don’t get obsessed in using lacquer as your only go-to clearcoat. You will find some paints don’t play nice with lacquer clear. 

Washes and pin washes are best if they're solvent or water based over enamel clearcoat. My go-to is usually Testors Black Detail Wash. There are others I want to try. I’ve heard of using shaved chalk sticks with water as a wash. Flory wash is another I want to get. I prefer washes be water based due to easy cleanup. Some folks use artist oils but it depends on whether they’re oil based or water based. 

  • Member since
    February, 2016
Posted by lowfly on Sunday, April 14, 2019 7:38 AM

Ok.....Thank you. That helps out a lot. i know these are dumb questions but i am trying to learn. Thanks for all the advice. 

  • Member since
    March, 2012
  • From: Corpus Christi, Tx
Posted by mustang1989 on Sunday, April 14, 2019 9:05 AM

lowfly

Ok.....Thank you. That helps out a lot. i know these are dumb questions but i am trying to learn. Thanks for all the advice. 

 

Hey there lowfly. You shouldn't do that to yourself. No such thing as a dumb question despite what some folks will try to tell you. I have found in my experience to do as much research on any given product or what I'm working with ahead of time but we all need help. That's why we're here. Looks like these guys have you pointed in the right direction. Hang tight bro. Cool

P.S. You got a thread on that B-25?

                   

 

  • Member since
    November, 2018
Posted by oldermodelguy on Sunday, April 14, 2019 1:01 PM

lowfly

Ok.....Thank you. That helps out a lot. i know these are dumb questions but i am trying to learn. Thanks for all the advice. 

 

Actually no they aren't dumb questions at all because there a few ways to attack what you want to do. Just because someome has a routine they like and preach on doesn't mean that someone doing it another way likes it or got the same result. They may prefer another way.

If these guys saw how my wife does washes on her ceramics they probably wouldn't agree. But there is no denying the end result which is 100% acrylics from the base coat to the top coat of varnish I spray them with. She does her washes with thinned down transluscent acrylic stains, then wipe them down to the look she wants. The key is dry time between coats, it's gotta be more than luck cause she's been at it too many decades lol.

Edit: Oops, my wifes stain washes are done with Duncan transluscent oil/water stains. Oil based water wipe down and clean up. I had to ask her to make sure I was right, well I was wrong. Anyway the product line is Duncan and they are transluscent stains. Sorry about that ! These are for antique look not model weathering, though some might work out fine, never tried them.

  • Member since
    January, 2013
Posted by BlackSheepTwoOneFour on Sunday, April 14, 2019 1:21 PM

Even if you don't have a lot of mule kits to use as a test base, there's always plastic spoons to use. Cheap and economical. Scrib a few lines in them for washes and pin washed. Try using different paint brands with different thinners. This way, you'll have a pretty good idea what works, what doesn't with what. 

  • Member since
    February, 2016
Posted by lowfly on Monday, April 15, 2019 5:50 AM

Again, Thanks for all the help.  It really is all apprciated. I do not have a build thread for the B25 but my next project will have one. Again thanks for all the advice it really was helpful.

 

  • Member since
    January, 2014
Posted by Silver on Saturday, April 20, 2019 2:37 AM

Not s good mix.Try the gloss from the same line of acrylics.Not enamel/ or lacquer Base.

  • Member since
    February, 2016
Posted by lowfly on Saturday, April 20, 2019 8:14 AM

Just wanted all to know i have switched to the Acrylic base coat - Pledge Floor Shine gloss coat. THe results are better than i could have ever expected!  Thank you all for the advice and help. It was apprciated and put to good use. When i am down with the model i shall post pics. 

 

Thanks again

 

  • Member since
    November, 2008
  • From: Central Florida
Posted by plasticjunkie on Saturday, April 20, 2019 9:50 AM

lowfly

Just wanted all to know i have switched to the Acrylic base coat - Pledge Floor Shine gloss coat. THe results are better than i could have ever expected!  Thank you all for the advice and help. It was apprciated and put to good use. When i am down with the model i shall post pics. 

 

Thanks again

 

 

Can’t  go wrong with Future but remember to let it cure  at least 4 days before using any washes or decal setting solution applications. 

 GIFMaker.org_jy_Ayj_O

 

 

Too many models to build, not enough time in a lifetime!!

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