good spraybooth?

Hi, Brian

I don't have one of Pace's booths, but I would like to offer an opinion, if I may.  The 24-inch Super Mini booth face (what there is of it---more on that in a moment) measures 24" X 15".  If my math is close, that gives us an area of 2.5 square feet.  Airflow at the face should average about 100 feet per minute (fpm) to provide an adequate capture velocity for the pigments and organic vapors.  In order to get that kind of velocity, you're going to need a motor that has a rating of AT LEAST 250 cubic feet per minute (100fpm X 2.5ft^2).  I say "at least" because the motor is rated without filters and ductwork.  The motor for the booth you're looking at is only rated at 148cfm, which will supply an average face velocity of only 50fpm, which is little more than still air.  Interestingly, the same motor in the booth you're considering (148 cfm) is used on the 20-inch booth and will be underpowered there, as well. 

Once you start adding filters and lengths of ducting you introduce airflow resistance, which equates to duct loss throughout the system.  So what you need is a motor that can provide 100fpm airflow at the face of the booth with a paint filter in place AND provide enough duct transport velocity on the push side of the motor. 

About that booth face: there really isn't much of one.  The sides, top, and bottom of a booth should be extended far enough to completely enclose whatever you're going to paint.  This ensures two things: 1. That airflow is laminar (linear) throughout the spray area, and 2. capture velocities are somewhat constant throughout the booth.  The lack of top and side extensions in the booth you are looking at suggest that the booth will pull air from the sides more quickly than it will from the front where spraying occurs except, perhaps, in the very center.  This may not be as apparent during airbrush use, but with a rattle can you should be able to readily observe where all the overspray is headed.

There are those folks who have Pace booths and are quite happy with them, I'm sure.  However, based on design and fan ratings alone, my hard-earned money would be better served buying something else. 

If you should decide to build your own, please stay away from cardboard boxes, range hoods and fans, bathroom fans, and dryer hose.

Just one opinion,

Gip Winecoff 

I guess my Badger booth is woefully underpowered as well Gip.

Maybe I need to modify it.

IceDragon122 wrote:

I was wondering if anyone has one of these or know if they are any good? http://www.pacepaintbooths.com/pace/  I was aiming for the 24inch super mini. I want to know if anyone here thinks its a good buy for the money.

Brain,

I saw the Artograph 1530 spray booth often mentioned in modeler's site. It is listed by most airbrush vendor for less than $350 and free shipping. It has a downdraft system and a 370 CFM motor. You can find a review of it at the Cybermodeler.

There is a good reference article on spray booth design at Brain's Model Car site.

(No, I don't have a spray booth YET. That's why I spray only acrylic and hand brush enamel.)

Icedragon,

What feature of the Pace booth attracted you? The price is definite high compared to the more established brand such as Artograph.

Looking forward to hear your booth report.

Greetings,

I have the Pace and I absolutely love it.   I originally considered the artograph but was turned off by the expensive filters.  The pace has a removable work tray that attaches to the front and really comes in handy.  The Pace is pricey but worth every penny.  Hope this helps you.

Chuck B. 

cbreeze wrote:

I have the Pace and I absolutely love it.   I originally considered the artograph but was turned off by the expensive filters.

Very good point. Anyone knows of a generic filter paper or household item that can be used in place of the pre-filter?

I like the powerful motor and down draft design of the Artograph. But the long term cost and inconvenience is a consideration. We need some first hand experience from Artograph users here.

keilau wrote:

Very good point. Anyone knows of a generic filter paper or household item that can be used in place of the pre-filter? I like the powerful motor and down draft design of the Artograph. But the long term cost and inconvenience is a consideration. We need some first hand experience from Artograph users here.

Other than long-term cost, what inconvenience are you referring to?

As I understand it, the cost is not in the pre-filter but in the activated charcoal filter.  This filter allows you to use the booth by exhausting air back in the room (ie, recirculation).  The carbon adsorbs the vapor fraction and basically "scrubs" the air clean.  I have a close friend who owns an Artograph, sprays frequently, and hasn't replaced his carbon filter in over a year--and he airbrushes enamels.  Obviously, however, your mileage may vary.

One of the advantages of the Artograph is that it allows the option of recirculating exhausted air, or venting it to the outside via a normal exhaust duct.  If the latter option is chosen, then there's no need to invest in the charcoal filter--so operating expenses should be no more than a "regular" back-drafted booth.

Therefore, "long-term cost" becomes neither more nor less than any other booth.

According to the Artograph web-site, their prefilters are $30 for a 20-pak.  That's $1.50 per filter--which is pretty inexpensive IMO.

Gip

To cbreeze:  Glad you like your Pace booth!

styrene wrote:

Other than long-term cost, what inconvenience are you referring to? As I understand it, the cost is not in the pre-filter but in the activated charcoal filter.

Convenience is in the eye of the beholder. The pre-filter needs to be replaced every couple of models. It does not sound like anything special but a piece of porous paper/cloth. When the user runs out of stock and forgets to re-order ahead of time, does Artograph provide the specification on what can be used as substitute?  I can understand that the mid and carbon filter need to be specially designed to function well. But the pre-filter too?

styrene wrote:

According to the Artograph web-site, their prefilters are $30 for a 20-pak.  That's $1.50 per filter--which is pretty inexpensive IMO.

Artograph dealers are usually art supply stores which are likely not in convenient location. Unless the dealer is a large store in a major city, it is likely that they do not stock spray booth supplies. The cost is not the only issue. How can the user purchase supply is.

Yes, the Artograph has a lot to go for it. When I get around buying one, it may still be my first choice.

keilau wrote:

Convenience is in the eye of the beholder. The pre-filter needs to be replaced every couple of models.

I'm not sure where you are getting your information, but Artograph's website states that the prefilter should be changed "every 90 surface sprays".  Having viewed my friend's booth and spraying habits, one prefilter should last through at least 10 1/35 scale kits--or maybe more.  For me, that's roughly 5 years! 

I've been shopping around for a booth and am about to buy the Pace Super mini (the 24" one) myself since I've had Pace recommended by quite a few happy owners, and this booth seems like a good size for what I build.

I priced the various booths and the Pace booths compare well, being equal or cheaper than many of similar size.

I don't know the first thing about required airflow, and not much about paint booths. The owner of Pace has 35 years experience in HVAC work so I would hope he knows how to set up a vent hood (I said hope, not does, I don't know). I notice all but the most expensive fall short of Gip's recommended 100cfm rating including the similar sized Artograph booth.

Gip, I don't mean to dismiss your statement, just saying many of the other booths also fall short of your suggestion. I definately agree with your comment against cardboard boxes and bathroom fans, many do get away with these booths but it is a hard lesson for those unlucky enough to get the paint fumes and a spark just right.

Aaronw wrote:

I notice all but the most expensive fall short of Gip's recommended 100cfm rating including the similar sized Artograph booth. Gip, I don't mean to dismiss your statement, just saying many of the other booths also fall short of your suggestion.

I am considering a spray booth after I settled the airbrush and compressor upgrades last year. It is important to hear some user experiences.

One of the question I have not seen much discussion is the noise of the booth. I saw noise level quoted as high as 85 dBA or compared to a household floor fan on high. Is it really that bad? All the investment on a "quite" compressor would go out the window!!

You misunderstood GIP's recommendation. He did not recommend 100 CFM rating, which would be quiet weak. GIP said an effective booth needs to have a face velocity of 100 FPM (feet per minute). This seems to be quite well established as the standard for cross drafted design. For downdraft design, mother nature (gravity) helps and the face velocity can be less, like 50 FPM. The fan rating in CFM (cubic feet per minute) is calculated base on the surface area of the filter and the required velocity.

The PACE Super-mini uses a 148 CFM fan in a cross draft design. It seems to be way under powered. The Artograph 1530 uses a 370 CFM fan in a down draft design which seems to be over designed in fan power. I would like to hear from users whether there is practical difference in the effectiveness of drawing out the fume.

I am more inclined to the Artograph because it does not require exhaust to outside of the house. Its initial cost is slightly less than equivalent PACE, but the replacement filter cost is much higher.

Any user comment about the noise of spray booth in general or on particular brand/model?

 Brian, I built my own and you can too for around $150.00 and it will 3times the booth that you can buy at that price. Heres some pic's.I hope that this helps.

                                                                         doc

keilau wrote:

Aaronw wrote: I notice all but the most expensive fall short of Gip's recommended 100cfm rating including the similar sized Artograph booth. Gip, I don't mean to dismiss your statement, just saying many of the other booths also fall short of your suggestion. I am considering a spray booth after I settled the airbrush and compressor upgrades last year. It is important to hear some user experiences. One of the question I have not seen much discussion is the noise of the booth. I saw noise level quoted as high as 85 dBA or compared to a household floor fan on high. Is it really that bad? All the investment on a "quite" compressor would go out the window!! You misunderstood GIP's recommendation. He did not recommend 100 CFM rating, which would be quiet weak. GIP said an effective booth needs to have a face velocity of 100 FPM (feet per minute). This seems to be quite well established as the standard for cross drafted design. For downdraft design, mother nature (gravity) helps and the face velocity can be less, like 50 FPM. The fan rating in CFM (cubic feet per minute) is calculated base on the surface area of the filter and the required velocity. The PACE Super-mini uses a 148 CFM fan in a cross draft design. It seems to be way under powered. The Artograph 1530 uses a 370 CFM fan in a down draft design which seems to be over designed in fan power. I would like to hear from users whether there is practical difference in the effectiveness of drawing out the fume. I am more inclined to the Artograph because it does not require exhaust to outside of the house. Its initial cost is slightly less than equivalent PACE, but the replacement filter cost is much higher. Any user comment about the noise of spray booth in general or on particular brand/model?

I just used the math he provided for the Pace booth, CFM / area of the opening (height x width in ft) to compare with other booths. The Pace super mini and both Artograph booths (1520 & 1530) rate a 63 by this method whether this is CFM or FPM I don't know, I just used the math he gave. It stands to reason if the Pace booth is underpowered then so are the booths he is recommending.

The Artograph 1520 has a marginally larger fan (185 vs 148) but has a more square opening which makes for a larger face than the Supermini, and the artograph booths have more filters to go through.

I used the measurements given by the manufacturer on the appropriate sites, it is possible in some cases these may not be 100% accurate for the opening since only Pace actually includes a dimensional drawing.

The Micro-Lux and Paashe booths rate over 100 using this method.

Updraft, downdraft, cross draft other than knowing it relates to the air movement I don't know how that effects things. I know the Pace booth is popular with those who have bought one, but based on other threads I haven't seen many complaining about the booth they bought regardless of brand.

I don't mean to be argumentative because I don't really understand all the factors involved. I'm simply applying the standards of one to the others.

I'm also not trying to push the Pace over other booths for others. I've received good recommendations from people who own one, so that is the way I have decided to go. It sounds like it fits my needs for a moderately sized general purpose and fairly inexpensive booth. It will be going into my garage so I have no need for the additional filters allowing it to vent into the house. So far I haven't seen anything that would make me think another booth of this size and price would be significantly better for my needs.

doc-hm3 wrote:

Brian, I built my own and you can too for around $150.00 and it will 3times the booth that you can buy at that price. Heres some pic's.I hope that this helps.                                                                          doc

How big of a fan did you go with on that booth?

I have the large Pace booth, for about 2 years now...got it when I returned to the hobby. My opinion on the quality of the pace booth has gone down the more I use it for the following reasons:

 1 - As mentioned earlier, air flow is underpowered... I do get backflow at times. I AB enamels, always have my mask on anyways.

2 - Cheap construction - I am sorry, but the workmanship is amateur at best... the sheet metal is really flimsy, easily bends. The light fixture is shoddily designed and put together.

3. Speaking of the light fixture, the location is all wrong... and the bulbs so close to the sheet metal that it will make it VERY hot in just a few minutes (you WILL burn your hand if you place it on top of the booth on the location of the light fixture). I changed the bulbs to the white type.  In the winter, I swith back to heat up the hood enclosure a bit (booth in an unheated attached garage).

4 - If I had the handyman know how, I would add source of light to the back of the hood , and/or sides.

5 - Filter -yes, its cheaper.. but... I wonder how much it "catches" at times, since it only covers half the back-area of the hood. And it has a tendency to 'slide over" and leave the exhaust opening without filter covering. Again, lazy workmanship, you should be able to design something to hold the filter in place.

Does it work for me? yes I guess... would I buy the same brand again? probably not....

Artograph better? who knows.... the bit of research I did, in order to get a REAL OSHA-type good fume hood, you would have to spend some serious casg ($2,000 or so) to get an 'artist-grade" hood.

Do I recomend a Pace booth? With many reservations.... not a BAd product, but not the panacea that some people make it to be... I guess the bad workmanship gets to me, specially the light fixture.

I DO like the extra switches and outlets, can control the compressor from the hood, no need to bend down or reach for the compressor switch.

Aaron, I believe it is a 430cfm, Dayton motor. It does evacuate paint and fumes. I use a 3 stage charcoal filter which cuts down on the suction.

                                                                          doc

Jmart, thanks, you are the first to give a somewhat unhappy report of their booth (of any brand). I'm looking at the smaller booth as a place to start, but your post stating somewhat sloppy construction and Doc's post with his home built has me back to considering building my own. From what I'm seeing the affordable booths (for my budget) are no better at meeting the stated requirements, and I can cobble together an adequate box (highschool woodshop pays off again ) 

Granger has a couple of 400 cfm + "squirrel cage" blowers in the $100-150 range which would more than meet the 100 fpm requirement for a 24" -ish booth. I doubt the materials and ducting could be more than $50 saving me $35.

Thanks to all who participated in this discussion. I decided after looking at the various booths than none of the commercial hobby booths in my price range met the recommended airflow so I'm building my own.

I got a Dayton 485CFM "squirrel cage" blower for $144 from Grainger (awesome service BTW, I had the fan a day after ordering it).

A 100W clamp on reflector light with a flourescent bulb, $15 +/-

4x8' sheet of 3/8 plywood $13

A couple of furnace filters $3 ea

An 18x24" sheet of plexiglass $8

Misc fasteners, small wood stock etc $10 +/-

With some added time and sweat to put it all together I should have myself a nice spraybooth for a little under $200. I went a bit over capacity on the fan (for the size I'm building it looks like 300cfm would have been adequate) so I have room to grow if I find a 24x24x18 box too small. I figure I can easily fit a 1/72 B-17 in there whole so it should keep me happy for now.