Future woes

pathvet9 wrote:

I sprayed with Tamiya Flat Base but the areas that had the Future stand out and are not flat (plus I did not wash the decals enough after they dried and I have white soap marks, but that is another story!).

The Tamiya X-20 is not meant to be sprayed by itself. Read this post.

If you do a search on "Tamiya Flat Base", it will yield hundreds of posts with similar advises.

I have not seen those posts but was using the recommendation that I read from THIS forum, saying use 25-50% Future mixed with Tamiya Dull Cote. Is this now been discredited?

pathvet9 wrote:

I have not seen those posts but was using the recommendation that I read from THIS forum, saying use 25-50% Future mixed with Tamiya Dull Cote. Is this now been discredited?

No idea what you are talking about and whatever you did!! There is no such thing as "Tamiya Dull Cote". You can spray "DullCote" directly over Future and should not get what you described.

The Testors Dull Cote is a "Crystal-clear, flat overcoat for altering glossy surfaces or protecting decals". It comes in either a 3-oz spray can or an 1-3/4 oz bottle. It is a Lacquer paint ready to use.

Pure Future is gloss. Did people use Testors Dullcote to make it flat? Possible? But I don't think that it is good idea to mix acrylic (Future) with Lacquer (DullCote). Give a link to what you read. We may be able to tell you whether it was good or bad advice.

I'm not sure that what you're seeing is actually "soap" residue or white haze from excessive Tamiya flat base.

The ratios which you have quoted (25-50% Future) seem a bit off - normally it's around 25-30% Flat base (actually I'd go less than that - start at perhaps 20% Flat Base).

At the mix that you're currently using, it will more than likely create a translucent white haze over the areas sprayed. Some people have reported being able to "kill" the haze by overcoating with straight clear gloss/Future.

Be wary of "patch" spraying a clear gloss/Future over some colours as it will appear to darken the base colour, highlighting those patches. It's not really darker, but you are altering the reflectivity of those areas, giving them the appearance of being darker. Overspraying the "darkened" areas with a clear flat will cause those areas to appear lighter, but in some instances may not restore them all the way to their original appearance.

I cant comment on a fix, but as for the future...  I have had success using Tamiya clear Gloss (x-22) as a base prep for the decals- not a complete coat but only spotted where the decal is going, then a complete coat of Future once the decals are on, then a complete coat of Rattle Can Tamiya Flat TS-80.

Granted, I've only done 3 projects like this but they have come out fine!

No, I meant Tamiya Flat Coat and from the other responses, I would think that I #1. did not clean the model well enough before starting, and #2. did not mix the Flat base properly in %, and #3. did end up with areas of changed texture as Phil_D pointed out with patch use of Future.

I am learning and thanks for all the responses.   

Phil - I have now gone back and done some fine wet sanding, washing and re-coating both with thinned flat black (XF-1) and then oversprayed lightly 2 coats of Flat Base (X-21) and Future at 25-75 ration and things look much better.

I think you are correct about some colors and I now realize that Flat Black as this Stealth fighter is supposed to be is THE WORST!! Not only for texture variations but also showing and holding every little piece of lint/dirt/fiber/whatever. Remind me never to use that color again! 

K.I.S.S.

There are many clear dead flat straight from the bottle finishing products in acrylic, enamel and laquer. Why do people continue to insist on making their lives difficult by mixing an inherrently flawed and poorly labeled with improper directions* product, Tamiya Flat Base, with other products to reach the same result as a single product that gives consistent results without having to attempt to reach a magic ratio of Flat base and floor polish?

* If you can still find usage instructions for flat base, they are the same as any other Tamiya paint with instructions on how long to wait between coats but nothing about needing to mix this with another paipnt to be useful.

ajlafleche wrote:

Why do people continue to insist on making their lives difficult by mixing an inherrently flawed and poorly labeled with improper directions* product, Tamiya Flat Base, with other products to reach the same result as a single product that gives consistent results without having to attempt to reach a magic ratio of Flat base and floor polish?

Because people read too many internet chat boards / magazine articles / reviews where Future is toted as a miracle product that has magical properties to make models look amazing.  I tried using Future as a gloss coat and went back to using lacquers.  The only true use I have for Future is for dipping canopies after they have been sanded / polished.

Bronto wrote:

ajlafleche wrote: Why do people continue to insist on making their lives difficult by mixing an inherrently flawed and poorly labeled with improper directions* product, Tamiya Flat Base, with other products to reach the same result as a single product that gives consistent results without having to attempt to reach a magic ratio of Flat base and floor polish?   Because people read too many internet chat boards / magazine articles / reviews where Future is toted as a miracle product that has magical properties to make models look amazing.  I tried using Future as a gloss coat and went back to using lacquers.  The only true use I have for Future is for dipping canopies after they have been sanded / polished.

Couldnt agree more...  while I do like future as a decal prep and sealer, to try to use it in ratio with a flat base seems insane.  Improper ratios lead to opaque finishes lead to attempting to fix the mistake lead to potentially lots of extra hours of work!  Just use the flat base alone and be done with it!

MikeS71 wrote:

Bronto wrote:  ajlafleche wrote: Why do people continue to insist on making their lives difficult by mixing an inherrently flawed and poorly labeled with improper directions* product, Tamiya Flat Base, with other products to reach the same result as a single product that gives consistent results without having to attempt to reach a magic ratio of Flat base and floor polish?   Because people read too many internet chat boards / magazine articles / reviews where Future is toted as a miracle product that has magical properties to make models look amazing.  I tried using Future as a gloss coat and went back to using lacquers.  The only true use I have for Future is for dipping canopies after they have been sanded / polished.   Couldnt agree more...  while I do like future as a decal prep and sealer, to try to use it in ratio with a flat base seems insane.  Improper ratios lead to opaque finishes lead to attempting to fix the mistake lead to potentially lots of extra hours of work!  Just use the flat base alone and be done with it!

Flat Base, the Tamiya product named as such,  CANNOT be used alone. It will turn your model milky white. It's not paint but a flattening agent to be added to gloss paint to turn it flat. Again, lack of proper instructions from the manufaturer has bitten modelers on the backside for over 20 years. I still have no idea why Tamiya never changed the labelling/instructions to indicate proper usage. Maybe it's the same reason they still prodice two handled jerry cans from 35 year old molds.

I guess if I had known this from all before, I would not be

Thanks! ..  for the next project

Mike - just a quick question? Since I STARTED with Tamiya Flat Black and then put on Future to set the decals, then tried to use Base and Future and found textural/shade changes that I could not mask----

I am wondering how the rattle can worked? Did you have any shade changes noted? Or is Flat Black just a B---- of a color to blend easily?

I have had no problems with the Tamiya flat Clear (TS-80).

Someone can correct me on this if I am wrong but, using the flat black then going over it with a gloss coat like Future negates the original flat...  essentially, if you are going to apply a protective coat of future once done painting, it makes no difference if you used gloss black or flat black.

The problem with mixing the flat base with Future is that if you dont know what you are doing and get a bad ratio, you end up with an opague finish (as you experienced).  For my purposes, a LIGHT coat of the flat clear achieves the same result-flattening the gloss of the future- without the risk.

Just one question- when you say you used the Future to "set the decals" you did apply the future BEFORE the decals right?  Making sure you didnt decal over the flat paint.

Right - I used Future to coat over the flat black only where the decals were going but I was not careful and thus ended up with many shade variations which subsequent coats of properly mixed (1:4) Flat Base:Future did not settle down and thus I am ending with lots of variations in shades of "flat black". Not so good on a Stealth Fighter but  ...... I am learning!

Now I can say, "been there, done that"!   

 Thanks for all the inputs.