New Iwata, new problems

Hey Wrinkled,

I've had the Iwata HP-CS myself on a smartjet compressor and find that skills are challenged sometimes just getting paint to behave properly, so you're not alone.  Some stuff goes on well, other paint (like MM acryl schnellbootweiss) just runs like a little kid's nose at an influenza convention.  Getting the right combination of thinner to paint in my experience is a black art that changes with every airbrush you have, but the two most influential factors I'm familiar with are: a) air pressure (I usually use as low a pressure as I can get away with) and b) how clean the airbrush is.  I find that I have to clean my airbrush rather more obsessively than most people recomend or its performance wanes quickly. 

You're best asking more experienced HP-CS users than myself, but in the meantime know that you're not alone.  I'll keep an eye on this thread to see if we can both benefit.

Same here guys. I've got a HP TR1 which wasn't even cheap and it splatters like a cow taking a leak on a flat rock. I've adjusted the pressure all up and down the scale as well as the amount of thinning.

I've tried it with five different brands of paint and thinners to no avail. I ordered a different brand of air brush yesterday and i'll use this one for just base coating because there's just no way you can use it for fine work or touch up, it make a bigger mess than what you're trying to fix.

There has been no mistreatment and there is no question about it being clean.

It sure would be nice if someone out there had a solution.                                                              Tony the Mutt

I have an Iwata HP-CS, HP-BS & HP-BCS and have never had an issue at all.

The first thing I would do would be to take the fluid nozzle apart and clean it and also inpsect it for damage.

If everything looks ok, I would put it back together and gently make sure that the need is pushed all the way forward to properly close the nozzle when the trigger is all the way forward.

The only remaining variables that would affect peformance are:

paint to thinner ratio (assuming paint is new and not going south).

Line Air pressure  (15-20 PSI should be fine).

One final thought is that when I paint I always remove the needle cap and spray with the needle exposed. This way I can see the needle and know if I am getting dried paint built up on the needle--if so, I gently remove it with a thinner soaked cotton swab.

Hope this helps.

Grant--yeah, I have a similar problem at times.  The HP-CS seems to have two settings at times: so thick that it won't flow at all and so thin that the paint runs all over. 

Cbaltrin--I'll check the positioning of my needle from now on.  I clean the nozzle as much as I can, using tiny bottle brushes designed for airbrushes and a tiny needle to scratch out anything that's gone hard, but what's the best method for totally clearing this tiny component out?  I've always used lacquer thinner with the above techniques.

Wrinkledm wrote:

I've been using my Badger 360 for a year or more now and I thought I'd treat myself to a new Iwata HP-CS.  D

I don't have an Iwata, but I'll put my 2 cents in anyway.  The models you all mention seem to have .3mm nozzles.  The medium nozzle of the Badger 360 is .75mm.  I have a 155 which uses the same nozzle and I've measured it.  The Badger can therefore spray thicker paint.  The smaller nozzles need a thinner medium.  

Here's a suggestion:  Try something really thin, like an old bottle of ink and see how it works on some paper towel.  If the problem goes away, maybe you just need a little more practice finding the right thinning ratio.  From what I've seen watching videos, these smaller nozzles do seem to take more coats to build up color.

Then again, I could be all wet.  It wouldn't be the first time.

Don 

I have the HP-CS and to be honest I just throw everything together right there in the cup and start spraying and I've never had troubles. I put the thinner in first so there's no thick paint going through and then put my paint in, mix and spray. I go to around the consistency of milk but I'm really loose with my ratio. I spray at about 12 psi.

I also have a Badger 155 which I use for all my large coverage and anything lacquer or enamel  based where as the Iwata is details and small parts with mainly tamiya acrylic. The 155 is the same needle/head as the 360 and what took me the longest to learn was how very different the trigger control is and it messed me up for a bit. For me I have a completely different approach to how I control each brush. Don't be afraid to open the HP-CS up a little. It's spraying nice when the 155 would be spewing it out. The 155/360 has a very agressive needle tapper compared to the Iwata 

Also keep the needle but especially the trigger well lubed. The trigger has an o-ring in there which can stick a bit so your air will stay on after releasing the trigger.

Edit: Forgot to say that if your brush splatters look at the tip of your needle very closely it could be bent.

Don Wheeler wrote:

Wrinkledm wrote: I've been using my Badger 360 for a year or more now and I thought I'd treat myself to a new Iwata HP-CS.  D I don't have an Iwata, but I'll put my 2 cents in anyway.  The models you all mention seem to have .3mm nozzles.  The medium nozzle of the Badger 360 is .75mm.  I have a 155 which uses the same nozzle and I've measured it.  The Badger can therefore spray thicker paint.  The smaller nozzles need a thinner medium.   Here's a suggestion:  Try something really thin, like an old bottle of ink and see how it works on some paper towel.  If the problem goes away, maybe you just need a little more practice finding the right thinning ratio.  From what I've seen watching videos, these smaller nozzles do seem to take more coats to build up color. Then again, I could be all wet.  It wouldn't be the first time. Don

Don,

I think that you hit the problem right on the head. In addition to the smaller nozzle, the Iwata also has a needle with a more gentle taper. It needs more practice to get the hange of it. But eventually, it gives the user more linear and precise control of what he paints.

I have an Iwata HP-CS as my prime airbrush.

keilau wrote:

Don Wheeler wrote:  Wrinkledm wrote: I've been using my Badger 360 for a year or more now and I thought I'd treat myself to a new Iwata HP-CS.  D I don't have an Iwata, but I'll put my 2 cents in anyway.  The models you all mention seem to have .3mm nozzles.  The medium nozzle of the Badger 360 is .75mm.  I have a 155 which uses the same nozzle and I've measured it.  The Badger can therefore spray thicker paint.  The smaller nozzles need a thinner medium.   Here's a suggestion:  Try something really thin, like an old bottle of ink and see how it works on some paper towel.  If the problem goes away, maybe you just need a little more practice finding the right thinning ratio.  From what I've seen watching videos, these smaller nozzles do seem to take more coats to build up color. Then again, I could be all wet.  It wouldn't be the first time. Don  Don, I think that you hit the problem right on the head. In addition to the smaller nozzle, the Iwata also has a needle with a more gentle taper. It needs more practice to get the hange of it. But eventually, it gives the user more linear and precise control of what he paints. I have an Iwata HP-CS as my prime airbrush.

I had one for a while and sold it to another member on here. I never had any problems except the trigger would stick after sitting a couple of days regardless of how I cleaned and lubed it. Weird. 

Don Wheeler wrote:

I don't have an Iwata, but I'll put my 2 cents in anyway.  The models you all mention seem to have .3mm nozzles.  The medium nozzle of the Badger 360 is .75mm.  I have a 155 which uses the same nozzle and I've measured it.  The Badger can therefore spray thicker paint.  The smaller nozzles need a thinner medium.

Interesting. I use an H&S with a .15 mm nozzle. I've noted it takes forver to get remotely opaque coverage. One of my first models was sprayed 8-10 times with Vallejo Model Air Dark Yellow and I could still see some filler corrections through the paint. Since then I've made sure to cover the model with as dark primer I can get away with, before painting.  

From what you're saying, I would have got coverage in a couple of layers if I had used the .4 mm nozzle that came with the airbrush?

DoC

Dr. Coffee wrote:

Interesting. I use an H&S with a .15 mm nozzle. I've noted it takes forver to get remotely opaque coverage. One of my first models was sprayed 8-10 times with Vallejo Model Air Dark Yellow and I could still see some filler corrections through the paint. Since then I've made sure to cover the model with as dark primer I can get away with, before painting.   From what you're saying, I would have got coverage in a couple of layers if I had used the .4 mm nozzle that came with the airbrush? DoC

I thin ModelMaster enamel 1:1 with lacquer thinner, and never need more than two coats. But I always put a couple of coats of Floquil reefer white under red or yellow.  I do go over an area 2 or 3 times per coat.

I guess what I am suggesting is that a larger nozzle would allow the use of paint that's not quite so thin.  But my experience is limited to one airbrush. 

Why not try the .4mm and let us know if you see any difference?

Don 

Don Wheeler wrote:

Dr. Coffee wrote: Interesting. I use an H&S with a .15 mm nozzle. I've noted it takes forver to get remotely opaque coverage. One of my first models was sprayed 8-10 times with Vallejo Model Air Dark Yellow and I could still see some filler corrections through the paint. Since then I've made sure to cover the model with as dark primer I can get away with, before painting.   From what you're saying, I would have got coverage in a couple of layers if I had used the .4 mm nozzle that came with the airbrush? DoC I thin ModelMaster enamel 1:1 with lacquer thinner, and never need more than two coats. But I always put a couple of coats of Floquil reefer white under red or yellow.  I do go over an area 2 or 3 times per coat. I guess what I am suggesting is that a larger nozzle would allow the use of paint that's not quite so thin.  But my experience is limited to one airbrush.  Why not try the .4mm and let us know if you see any difference? Don

I ran a quick test with the Vallejo Model Air 71078 Gold Yellow straight out of the bottle. Conditions aren't perfect for paintng, as it is cold humid weather. I should probably have thinned the paint somewhat, or added some dishwash liquid, as the paint formed droplets on the surface.

Results:

1. With the .15mm nozzle the paint formed smaller droplets, thus flowing less, being more controllable.
2. With the .4mm nozzle the paint cup emptied in an instant, depositing thick layers of paint that tended to go where they were not suppsed to.

Apart from that, I can't tell any difference. But is seems that one ought to achieve good coverage faster with the larger nozzle when conditions are better and the paint easier to handle.

DoC

BGuy wrote:

Cbaltrin--I'll check the positioning of my needle from now on.  I clean the nozzle as much as I can, using tiny bottle brushes designed for airbrushes and a tiny needle to scratch out anything that's gone hard, but what's the best method for totally clearing this tiny component out?  I've always used lacquer thinner with the above techniques.

I usually clean my nozzle with lacquer thinner and those little dental brushes you can buy inWal Mart next to the floss

I have a HP-CS (thanks Mike!) and it's now my primary brush. My usual brush was a Revolution with a larger nozzle so there was definately a learing curve. I found that the paint must be much thinner so I normally start 50/50 paint to thinner regardless of what type of paint or brand. From here I test the mix off the subject and adjust as required.

A point, if I may. I was having a similar problem with my CS and spent some time looking for problems. After repeated cleanings with no changes in performance, I finally found a flake, one solitary flake of paint stuck in the nozzle. It actually took me several minutes with a light and an Optivizor to finally convince myself that I had actually found something in there, the opening on the nozzle is so small. Then came the task of removing it. Nothing worked. Nothing I used would desolve it, nothing I had could get in there and scrape it out. I finally resorted to using a spare needle to dislodge the offending detrius, after which the brush worked like I expected it should.

My point is that the user may think the AB is squeaky clean. But the AB may have other ideas.

And that sticky trigger thing? Still does it. Don't matter how much I lube or what I lube with. I've removed the valve assembly and cleaned it, lubed it, cleaned out the lube, cursed it, cussed it, nothing will keep that silly trigger from sticking the first time it's pressed. After that first time it's perfect. Go figure.

hkshooter wrote:

And that sticky trigger thing? Still does it. Don't matter how much I lube or what I lube with. I've removed the valve assembly and cleaned it, lubed it, cleaned out the lube, cursed it, cussed it, nothing will keep that silly trigger from sticking the first time it's pressed. After that first time it's perfect. Go figure.

Just goes to show you that the Japanese copies are not any better than the ones made in the good ol' USA!

In a nutshell, it sounds like your paint is too thick, and needs to be thinned.  This can happen by the paint being overall to thick or having clumps of paint that then get stuck.  Alternatively, if your paint starts drying on the tip (dry tip), paint will ball up on the need and 'spit'.  Another reason is that your pressure isn't high enough. 

Ways to resolve these types of probelms:

• mix paint as well as possible, to avoid clumps.  Alternatively strain (I never do this...)
• thin the paint more. 
• Intermittently clean off the tip; easier to do if you don't have the crown on...
• evaluate your air supply.  Increase the pressure (i get spattering, if I go below 5lbs)

If you are getting running because you are getting close, you need to drop your pressure. 

I know this may be hard to conceptualize for many people, because they are used to using brushes that lay down a LOT of paint quickly.  As was observed above, these brushes have very small nozzles and can get clogged for a variety of reasons.  Thinner paints will require more coats, but ultimately will look better.  In addition, once you learn to control the consistency of your paints, air pressure and how to use your brush (i.e. angles you shoot at, how rapidly you move, range/distance, etc.) you can start doing all sorts of effects with a brush (weathering, feathering, panel lines, etc.).  Airbrushing with a new brush/set up can be frustrating.  However, my iwatas are a jewel on my bench,and I love them.  They are workhorses, hands down, so if they are not working, there's a reason. 

You may consider using both brushes too.  I have a number of brushes I use regularly, and each has a purpose.  I use quick releases, and use my brushes on my bench.  I've been playing with an Iwata HP-A+, and love it for doing quick work which I might only need a couple drops of paint, or want to quickly feather something, etc.  It's ease to clean up is nice too.  Alternatively, I'll use a paasche H to spray thick decanted primers (at a both of course...). 

So, I hope this helps.  The CS is a good brush, as are many that are like it out there (tamiya, richpens, paasche's talon, badger's renegades, etc.).  

Hey MickV!  Nice to see/read you again!  Took a hiatus, but now have setted down (new house) and am getting everything fired up again.  I look forward to more sparring over iwata v. other lesser brushes!  (j/k, I hope you know.) 

re: the stick triggers with iwatas.  This can happen for a variety of reasons.  On of the most insidious reasons is that paint/something else has leaked back into the tigger mechanism, and may cause a lot of gumming/friction.  This can happen if you have a faulty Oring behind the reservoir (had a second hand brush that did this... guy didn't take care of it, used lacquers and likely caused drying of the ring...) 

You may have to take it apart and clean out this part of the brush.  Use superlube or something similar and lube up the trigger mechanism.  This type of lube *shouldn't* cause problems with paint, if it happens to get in it.   Some have a post connected to the trigger (i.e. the CS) and others have a pin (i.e. the highline series.) 

Another reason this can happen is a faulty air-valve or the spring, but it easier to just clean out the trigger. 

Inquisitor wrote:

So, I hope this helps.  The CS is a good brush, as are many that are like it out there (tamiya, richpens, paasche's talon, badger's renegades, etc.).

Just a little FYI........The Renegade is in another league from the HP-CS as it is more of a competitor to the Micron series than the Eclipse series, which is a copycat of the Omni and Vega airbrushes. 

MikeV wrote:

Inquisitor wrote: So, I hope this helps.  The CS is a good brush, as are many that are like it out there (tamiya, richpens, paasche's talon, badger's renegades, etc.).   Just a little FYI........The Renegade is in another league from the HP-CS as it is more of a competitor to the Micron series than the Eclipse series, which is a copycat of the Omni and Vega airbrushes.

You can actually get the Badger Renegade Velocity AB for $15 cheaper than the Iwata HP-CS. As for the Iwata Micro Series, the Iwata Custom Micro CM-C Plus will cost 5 times more than the Renegade. ($450 vs. $90)

The Renegade Velocity has a 0.21 mm nozzle and the CM-C 0.19 mm. The HP-CS nozzle is 0.35 mm standard and 0.5 mm optional.

I do not have the Badger Renegade nor the Iwata Micro. I cannot comment on how close are their performance for a 5 times difference in price. I am very interested in an independent assessment on how close Badger achieve their objective in competing with the Iwata Micro. (I don't believe in more expensive is better. But.....)

I posted a link to a study done by an Italian Professor on What is an Iwata airbrush made of?  Iwata uses a nickel based superalloy to make the nozzle of both the Micro and Eclipse series airbrush. The use of aerospace material definitely contribute to the durability of the Iwata AB and the reputation.

keilau wrote:

I posted a link to a study done by an Italian Professor on What is an Iwata airbrush made of?  Iwata uses a nickel based superalloy to make the nozzle of both the Micro and Eclipse series airbrush. The use of aerospace material definitely contribute to the durability of the Iwata AB and the reputation.

MikeV wrote:

keilau wrote: I posted a link to a study done by an Italian Professor on What is an Iwata airbrush made of?  Iwata uses a nickel based superalloy to make the nozzle of both the Micro and Eclipse series airbrush. The use of aerospace material definitely contribute to the durability of the Iwata AB and the reputation. I know first hand that Badger also uses a nickel alloy (but does not hype it as some super alloy - which it could).  Badger's is long time used, and proven successful, nickel silver and their needles are stainless steel.  I do have it first hand that their Renegade and Sotar needles go through a heat hardening and carbide polishing process as well which is unique to Badger.  I guess if you wanted details you could always email ken at kenbadger@aol.com, he's always open and honest about his products. (I do have his OK to post his email in the forums).

The Badger Renegade Velocity was reviewed by Hal Miller right here at FSM last October. It reads like a well balanced assessment with the pros and cons of the AB. It talks about the needle at some length.

There are many nickel alloys. But the superalloy is a different class of material. I will be very interested if Badger can identify the superalloy that they use in their AB nozzle.

The Iwata needle is just plain 304 stainless steel. Prof. Zsolt compared it to the Paasche needle and noted that Paasche used molybdenum dopped steel which is superior to the 304 (much harder). But he concluded that the Iwata needle is the better one and less prone to bending. It is the manufacturing process that makes the difference. Unfortunately, he did not test a Badger needle.

keilau wrote:

There are many nickel alloys. But the superalloy is a different class of material.

Well maybe you can explain the metallurgy to us then? I didn't know you were so knowledgable about the chemistry of metals. 

I will be very interested if Badger can identify the superalloy that they use in their AB nozzle.

Contact Ken as I stated. Don't you think the biggest airbrush manufacturer in the world knows what the competition builds? Yes they do! 

keilau wrote:

There are many nickel alloys. But the superalloy is a different class of material. I will be very interested if Badger can identify the superalloy that they use in their AB nozzle.

This concern with the materials used to make airbrush components seems silly to me.  Who cares as long as the parts function as they should?  The paint surely doesn’t care.  With normal handling, the nozzles and needles of most brands will last a long time.  And when they wear out, or you damage them, replace them for a few dollars.  It’s not like you’re sending a rover to Mars.
By the way, if you look at the site referenced by professor Zsolt, you will find that there are many superalloys, and the main feature they have in common is strength at extreme temperatures.  This is great for jet turbine blades, but I don’t see how it applies to an airbrush.

Don
 

Don Wheeler wrote:

keilau wrote: There are many nickel alloys. But the superalloy is a different class of material. I will be very interested if Badger can identify the superalloy that they use in their AB nozzle. This concern with the materials used to make airbrush components seems silly to me.  Who cares as long as the parts function as they should?  The paint surely doesn’t care.  With normal handling, the nozzles and needles of most brands will last a long time.  And when they wear out, or you damage them, replace them for a few dollars.  It’s not like you’re sending a rover to Mars. By the way, if you look at the site referenced by professor Zsolt, you will find that there are many superalloys, and the main feature they have in common is strength at extreme temperatures.  This is great for jet turbine blades, but I don’t see how it applies to an airbrush. Don

Well said Don. Using terms like, "super alloy" is nothing more than marketing hype.

Don Wheeler wrote:

keilau wrote: There are many nickel alloys. But the superalloy is a different class of material. I will be very interested if Badger can identify the superalloy that they use in their AB nozzle. This concern with the materials used to make airbrush components seems silly to me.  Who cares as long as the parts function as they should?

The nozzles and needles we are talking about here are machined to very fine tolerences.  I wouldn't be surprised if these 'superalloys' are the reason why the manufacturers are able to consitently produce nozzles that stay within specs. One would assume that parts made from 'superalloys' might be more resistant to wear and tear, meaning that such parts last longer than other parts, given the same conditions of use.

In both cases the choise of alloys would be a direct contributing reason why the airbrush works as well as it does, and lasts as long as it does.

DoC

MikeV wrote:

Well said Don. Using terms like, "super alloy" is nothing more than marketing hype.

Here are some explanation of what superalloy is for some non-technical person. Many of the things that we enjoy everyday and take for granted would not have been possible without the invention like this.

The average airbrush user may not care about the detail of the engineering behind the Iwata, but they understand the RESULT of the engineering. There is a reason that "copycat" of the Omni and Vega airbrushes had become one of the most popular brand of airbrush.