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Spraybooth fan question.

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  • Member since
    February 2009
  • From: Ontario, Canada
Posted by VitG on Thursday, October 22, 2009 1:09 PM

Found one in a surplus store!

Torin blower fan GP-240 5" ontake opening- 35$Big Smile [:D]

Plugged it in... Dissapointment at first - 15 sec later got to full speed - impressiveSmile [:)]

Hopefully will finish the booth by the end of the weekend - and back to modeling!

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Hayward, CA
Posted by MikeV on Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:25 AM
 VitG wrote:
 styrene wrote:
 VitG wrote:

The number of fans is not a problem. One site I found these fans it says that you cannot have a duct at the exhaust. This will burn the motor out. And I got to have at least 1' of a duct to get it out the window.

Interestingly, I actually wondered about that, but couldn't find documentation, so I didn't post my concerns.  Where did you find that information? 

Gip

Here: http://www.bustan.ca/product_detail.asp?menuID=1&SID=13&PID=897

You would need two of the ones on the bottom and for the price you might as well spend a little more and get the one I posted a link to above. 

Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Hayward, CA
Posted by MikeV on Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:24 AM
 styrene wrote:
 MikeV wrote:

How about this baby Gip? Big Smile [:D] Clown [:o)]

http://www.rewci.com/airki36didrd.html 

Well, the wheels are too small.... Big Smile [:D]

Gip

 

Yes but over 9,000 cfm! Doing my best Tim the Tool Man grunt. Ho ho, more power! Laugh [(-D]

Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon
  • Member since
    February 2009
  • From: Ontario, Canada
Posted by VitG on Thursday, October 22, 2009 10:53 AM
 styrene wrote:
 VitG wrote:

The number of fans is not a problem. One site I found these fans it says that you cannot have a duct at the exhaust. This will burn the motor out. And I got to have at least 1' of a duct to get it out the window.

Interestingly, I actually wondered about that, but couldn't find documentation, so I didn't post my concerns.  Where did you find that information? 

Gip

Here: http://www.bustan.ca/product_detail.asp?menuID=1&SID=13&PID=897

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: The flat lands of the Southeast
Posted by styrene on Thursday, October 22, 2009 7:16 AM
 MikeV wrote:

How about this baby Gip? Big Smile [:D] Clown [:o)]

http://www.rewci.com/airki36didrd.html 

Well, the wheels are too small.... Big Smile [:D]

Gip

 

1882: "God is dead"--F. Nietzsche

1900: "Nietzsche is dead"--God

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: The flat lands of the Southeast
Posted by styrene on Thursday, October 22, 2009 7:12 AM
 MikeV wrote:

You need something like this I think. 

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/1TDT7

Good choice, Mike! 

Gip

1882: "God is dead"--F. Nietzsche

1900: "Nietzsche is dead"--God

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: The flat lands of the Southeast
Posted by styrene on Thursday, October 22, 2009 7:05 AM
 VitG wrote:

The number of fans is not a problem. One site I found these fans it says that you cannot have a duct at the exhaust. This will burn the motor out. And I got to have at least 1' of a duct to get it out the window.

Interestingly, I actually wondered about that, but couldn't find documentation, so I didn't post my concerns.  Where did you find that information? 

Gip

1882: "God is dead"--F. Nietzsche

1900: "Nietzsche is dead"--God

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Hayward, CA
Posted by MikeV on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 10:51 PM
 VitG wrote:
 styrene wrote:

You would need three such fans to provide adequate exhaust in your booth. 

Gip 

The number of fans is not a problem. One site I found these fans it says that you cannot have a duct at the exhaust. This will burn the motor out. And I got to have at least 1' of a duct to get it out the window.

You need something like this I think. 

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/1TDT7

Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon
  • Member since
    February 2009
  • From: Ontario, Canada
Posted by VitG on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 10:17 PM
 styrene wrote:

You would need three such fans to provide adequate exhaust in your booth. 

Gip 

The number of fans is not a problem. One site I found these fans it says that you cannot have a duct at the exhaust. This will burn the motor out. And I got to have at least 1' of a duct to get it out the window.

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Hayward, CA
Posted by MikeV on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 12:22 PM
 styrene wrote:
 VitG wrote:

https://www.acklandsgrainger.com/AGIPortalWeb/WebSource/ProductDisplay/globalProductDetailDisplay.do?item_code=GGS6KD76&categorySearch=true

Will that be a proper fan? It says shaded pole...

Well, the fan is quite small (4-11/16"), and is rated at only 107cfm.  You would need three such fans to provide adequate exhaust in your booth. 

Gip 

How about this baby Gip? Big Smile [:D] Clown [:o)]

http://www.rewci.com/airki36didrd.html 

Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: The flat lands of the Southeast
Posted by styrene on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 9:37 AM
 VitG wrote:

https://www.acklandsgrainger.com/AGIPortalWeb/WebSource/ProductDisplay/globalProductDetailDisplay.do?item_code=GGS6KD76&categorySearch=true

Will that be a proper fan? It says shaded pole...

Well, the fan is quite small (4-11/16"), and is rated at only 107cfm.  You would need three such fans to provide adequate exhaust in your booth. 

Gip 

1882: "God is dead"--F. Nietzsche

1900: "Nietzsche is dead"--God

  • Member since
    February 2009
  • From: Ontario, Canada
Posted by VitG on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 10:07 AM
  • Member since
    February 2009
  • From: Ontario, Canada
Posted by VitG on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 9:52 AM

Thanks Gip!

Going to get a new fan, or to get more like this. Downsized the booth size a bit as well...

I looked at the Grainger and Dayton, but I couldn't find any  place that would sell them here.

Found some fans in hydroponicSmile [:)] stores but they are around 250$ for 170 cfm. It's too much for me. To order one from the state, the shipping and fees will be to expensive.

The only shop that carries something like that is a surplus store, but I'll have to fish for the right fan.

Thanks again!

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: The flat lands of the Southeast
Posted by styrene on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 8:35 AM

From what I was able to find, the MB8Z-B3 fan has been discontiued and is no longer offered by Orix. Referring to your remaining specs and measurements provided from your previous post, it would appear the replacement fan is MB840-B.  At 100VAC, 60Hz, and 0.37A, the fan turns at 3150rpm, and provides a maximum of 63.5cfm.

Based on your stated booth size, the fan is woefully underpowered. You would need about 5 such fans to provide adequate air flow.  Even in a down draft configuration, it would take almost 3 fans.

Gip

1882: "God is dead"--F. Nietzsche

1900: "Nietzsche is dead"--God

  • Member since
    February 2009
  • From: Ontario, Canada
Posted by VitG on Monday, October 19, 2009 8:53 PM

Got a plenum chamber made, and the fan bracket... Uh, I suck at woodworkingSmile [:)] 

Sort of everything is ready to be put together. If only I knew the fan specs...

A MIRACLE!!!!

 styrene wrote:

Need to know specifications. 

If you got the Orix fan, did you get the MB series, or the MBD series, and what model number?

Gip

I've got Orix MB8Z-B3, 100V;  50/60Hz;  0.30/0.35A;  2.5μF;  2P

That's what it says on the fan. I've tried to find specs online, but... no sucess.

If you know anything about it, let me know please!Bow [bow]

THANKS!

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: The flat lands of the Southeast
Posted by styrene on Monday, October 19, 2009 7:52 PM

Need to know specifications. 

If you got the Orix fan, did you get the MB series, or the MBD series, and what model number?

Gip

1882: "God is dead"--F. Nietzsche

1900: "Nietzsche is dead"--God

  • Member since
    February 2009
  • From: Ontario, Canada
Posted by VitG on Sunday, October 18, 2009 11:33 PM

I've got another oneSmile [:)]

Is there a difference in sucktion power of a fan if:

Setup1: Fan is attached to the back of the plenum chamber and a duct (1' length) goes out of the window.

Setup2: Fan is attached to the window with a duct (1' length) connecting a fan to the back of the plenum chamber.

It is a lot easier for me to make setup 2.

Flexible duct and in-opening is 3" diameter. The exhaust opening on a fan is 1 1/4" X 2 1/8".

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: The flat lands of the Southeast
Posted by styrene on Friday, October 16, 2009 8:27 PM
 

I am not sure what he meant by a "fart fan" so I guess I will have to ask him. Laugh [(-D]

Mike, I believe a "fart fan" is a bathroom exhaust fan.   And in the for-what-it's-worth category, I have a few issues with many of his points.....but I'm too tired, and getting into the weeds on this stuff at this point isn't really worth it, and won't actually accomplish anything.  So I think I'll go to bed...

Oh, and thanks to you and Bill for the encouragement!  Back at ya', brother!

Gip

1882: "God is dead"--F. Nietzsche

1900: "Nietzsche is dead"--God

  • Member since
    February 2009
  • From: Ontario, Canada
Posted by VitG on Friday, October 16, 2009 7:01 PM

Thanks Mike!

And thanks to your friend Scooter!

I saved the letter for laterSmile [:)], but this booth that I'm doing is build into a computer armoire I got in walmart. Sort of putting all my hobby stuff in one closet. I live in an apartment so I've got to make everything as compact as possible. When I'll get a house - the proper booth will be constructed.

I got a fan named "Orix", it's a japanese fan, solid metal Smile [:)]. No cfm is listed but when I pluged it in - blows like crazy. I'll install one in the back wal, if it will not be enough, I'll add one more.

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Hayward, CA
Posted by MikeV on Friday, October 16, 2009 2:01 PM

OK, I asked my friend Scooter about this subject and he told me I was free to post his reply here. This man knows what he is talking about and airbrushed for probably 40 years. He was also instrumental in getting the T&C Vega airbrush on the market years ago. 

From the email he sent me:

Mike,

 

 As you know, I stopped posting on airbrush related forums 5 years ago, and I prefer to stay in retirement, it gets too addictive. I will write my opinion here, and you may post this entire diatribe on the forum. You may also share whatever part of my bio that you wish if you need to establish my credibility with this opinion. You know where I've been, what I've done, and how long I did so, as well as anyone.

 

1.      No commercially made airbrush spray booth comes equipped with a hazardous area fan.

2.      All commercially made airbrush spray booths are total BS.

3.      Any finely atomized material will ignite if the surrounding temperature is appropriately hot. Even water vapor!

4.      The chances of a spray booth explosion or fire are about ten million to one regardless of the material. When it happens it's a momentary flash, but as was said, it will take out eyebrows and eyelashes....been there, done that in a full size booth, lol.

5.      If you want an effective booth, build it yourself.

a. Construct the box out of metal or heavy plywood that is lined with metal.

b. Make sure it has a door that allows it to be a fully enclosed cube when finished with each spray procedure.

d. Install an intake filter on the top (furnace filters work nicely.

e. Install an exhaust filter in the floor (again, a furnace filter works nicely).

f. Forget the fart fan, install a fan from a range hood under the floor filter (range hood, that's the thingy over Mom's stove, the fan is made to be in a semi hazardous environment). You can buy replacement fans for range hoods at any home improvement center and they're cheap. They also come in two and three speed models and put out far more CFM than a fart fan.

g. Securely attach a flexible exhaust duct or pipe to the fan enclosure and seal all seams. Run it outside, don't exhaust it into the house, garage, or basement.

h. Build a turntable on a base that straddles the fan, and place items on it to be painted.

i. Paint with the door open and the fan on low speed. When finished with each coat, close the door immediately and then turn the fan on high to clear the booth. Turn the fan off if you can't avoid having to admire your work too soon, let the airflow stop before you reopen the door. Keeps the dust factor down.

j. Always wear a NIOSH rated respirator, long pants, long sleeves, and gloves. All solvent based paints can damage your lungs and your nervous system, and the offending chemicals can enter your body through your lungs AND the pores in your skin. Don't let yourself end up with lungs like mine. I might even have a touch of dain bramage, not sure.

 

 You've just built a state of the art downdraft spray booth for under $30 if you did your shopping and scavenging effectively. Ask any professional painter, downdraft is the best flow characteristic for any spraybooth.

 

 All of the posts I read on your thread have merit, and all make very valid points. None of you are wrong, just covering all of the bases. Listen to each other, agree to disagree, exchange ideas and you will all get better and better. You seem to be a great crew, and models can take you anywhere. I started with model airplanes and then on to model cars, real full size show cars, show bikes, etc.. In the process  the airbrush overtook my soul. It took me around the world many times, to the top of the world, and also to the bottom. The possibilities are endless!

 

Scooter

www.scooter-graphics.com

I am not sure what he meant by a "fart fan" so I guess I will have to ask him. Laugh [(-D]

 


 

Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: The flat lands of the Southeast
Posted by styrene on Friday, October 16, 2009 6:13 AM
 VitG wrote:

Thanks guys!

Finally, found a squirrel cage fan (the last one). Wasn't easy...

Picking up a few of them tomorrow, depending on their productivity, they seem rather small.

The fan is way too small.  These look like computer cooling fans, given their size.  The fact that no cfm rating is provided should cause red flags to go up.  I'd stay away from them.  Go to Grainger's or Dayton's web site and research their fans.

My booth is 20"X16", I guess around 150-200 cmf should do it.

Given those dimensions you need at least 225 cfm to provide 100fpm capture velocity.  I would be looking for something in the 250-300 cfm range.

By the way... How is it possible to tell fan's cfm? I hope there's some markings on it.

Usually, manufacturers' literature lists a fan's specifications.  Again, try Grainger or Dayton as a source.

Another thing, does the power of airbrush compressor matter for determining the required fan's cfm?

I've got this little toy Testors blue compressor. And I'll never use rattle cans indors anyway.

One has nothing to do with the other.  And never say "never". Smile,Wink, & Grin [swg] 

Gip

1882: "God is dead"--F. Nietzsche

1900: "Nietzsche is dead"--God

  • Member since
    February 2009
  • From: Ontario, Canada
Posted by VitG on Thursday, October 15, 2009 9:53 PM

Thanks guys!

Finally, found a squirrel cage fan (the last one). Wasn't easy...

Picking up a few of them tomorrow, depending on their productivity, they seem rather small.

My booth is 20"X16", I guess around 150-200 cmf should do it.

By the way... How is it possible to tell fan's cfm? I hope there's some markings on it.

Another thing, does the power of airbrush compressor matter for determining the required fan's cfm?

I've got this little toy Testors blue compressor. And I'll never use rattle cans indors anyway.

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Hayward, CA
Posted by MikeV on Thursday, October 15, 2009 6:13 PM
 Bgrigg wrote:

I wish Gip would visit more often. I would much rather just go than risk saying something wrong!

I'm one of the guys who contributed to that dump truck full he alludes to. My homemade booth uses a kitchen fan, and certainly isn't the best example. It's too big, the fan is in the wrong position and is too small, but when I use it my wife can't tell I'm painting (acrylics only), and that is worth its weight in gold. But I would never risk using a rattle can in it! I only look dumb!

One day I'll build a smaller downdraft using the right kind and size of fan, and when I do, I'll slap a  "Gip Approved" sticker on it! Big Smile [:D]

 

I agree Gip is da man! Laugh [(-D]


Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon
  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: Left forever
Posted by Bgrigg on Thursday, October 15, 2009 5:31 PM

I wish Gip would visit more often. I would much rather just go than risk saying something wrong!

I'm one of the guys who contributed to that dump truck full he alludes to. My homemade booth uses a kitchen fan, and certainly isn't the best example. It's too big, the fan is in the wrong position and is too small, but when I use it my wife can't tell I'm painting (acrylics only), and that is worth its weight in gold. But I would never risk using a rattle can in it! I only look dumb!

One day I'll build a smaller downdraft using the right kind and size of fan, and when I do, I'll slap a  "Gip Approved" sticker on it! Big Smile [:D]

 

So long folks!

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: The flat lands of the Southeast
Posted by styrene on Thursday, October 15, 2009 5:21 PM

The centrifugal ("squirrel cage") fan that Bill linked you to is your best choice, IMHO.  Axial fans, such as the bath fan you referenced in your OP can also be used provided you can get one rated high enough to give you the cfm necessary for good particulate and vapor capture.

The 70cfm figure you quote isn't nearly enough, unless your booth face is 6" X 6"...

Fans should be chosen based on what your booth size is going to be, not as the initial first step.  Ideally, a fan should be able to provide about 100fpm (capture velocity) at the booth face and give you about 2,000 fpm out the terminal exhaust end.  That 100 fpm figure has to be based on the booth face area.

As has been argued above, safety is a definite consideration.  The entire purpose of a spray booth is to reduce the risk of fire during spraying operations.  Equally important is the reduction in exposures of personnel to organic vapors and particulates.  While I don't believe the risk for fire is high when using an airbrush, the added benefit of a shaded pole fan cannot be overstated.  Arguments may abound concerning risk associated with airbrush spraying, but I think there's a tendency to forget the high probability (based partly on the frequency) of a modeler pulling out the old rattle can.  I think risk increases fairly dramatically in that instance--both from a fire and an exposure standpoint.  I also think it must be understood that I'm referring to risk using those booths with fans that are providing adequate airflow (~100fpm) as a standard.  In those booths using underpowered fans (and in this forum there's been a dump truck full of 'em over the years), I think risk becomes unacceptable.  Maybe y'all think I'm blowing smoke; that's OK, I don't mind.  After almost 30 years in the safety and health field, I've developed a rather conservative approach.

Gip 

 

1882: "God is dead"--F. Nietzsche

1900: "Nietzsche is dead"--God

  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: Left forever
Posted by Bgrigg on Thursday, October 15, 2009 12:11 AM
 VitG wrote:

I cannot seem to find any specialized fans in my area...

Will something like this work?

http://shopping.ca.msn.com/specs/honeywell-8-inch-super-tech-force-high-performance-fan/itemid12253795/?itemtext=itemname:honeywell-8-inch-super-tech-force-high-performance-fan&amp%3Bfulldesc=1

The motor seems to be covered...Sign - Dots <img src=" border="0" />

No, that kind of fan wouldn't work and would be pretty hard to connect to a booth. This is the kind of fan you should be looking for.

 

So long folks!

  • Member since
    October 2003
  • From: Southern California
Posted by ModelNerd on Wednesday, October 14, 2009 11:42 PM
 MikeV wrote:
(edit)Laugh [(-D]

 

 

 

PM sent, Mike.

- Mark

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Hayward, CA
Posted by MikeV on Wednesday, October 14, 2009 11:18 PM

My apologies for being argumentative on the forum Mark.

I agree with you in that he should use a shaded pole squirrel cage blower motor as that is what all the companies that make spray booths sell. They are not rated as explosion proof as I said but as I have been saying all along the chance of a fire is very slim unless you do something really stupid. I guess it is better to err on the side of caution because some people are just not that bright sometimes. Dunce [D)] Laugh [(-D]

Not saying that anyone here falls into that category mind you as that was not my intent. 


 

 

Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon
  • Member since
    October 2003
  • From: Southern California
Posted by ModelNerd on Wednesday, October 14, 2009 10:42 PM

 MikeV wrote:
As I said Mark it all depends on the circumstances. I have a friend that I mentioned before who used a big box fan in a shop that sprayed lacquer through that fan and never had a fire so as I said, it all depends on the user.

Are you actually, in a roundabot way, admitting that indeed one can start a fire with a spray booth?

Well it's not just the user. It's several factors, combined, just so, to produce the perfect storm. My point is, it has happened. Why would I lie to you, Mike? That's not the Christian way.

By the way, your friend is a walking hazard. I'm fairly certain that OSHA would not approve of his work ethic!

 

 MikeV wrote:

Sorry Mark but if you are going to talk about what is safe you have to talk about explosion proof motors right? Just because a motor is "shaded pole" doesn't mean squat as far as being explosion proof. If you can provide proof otherwise I am all ears bro.

Mike, what are you talking about? Shaded pole motors, I am told (by a guy at Grainger), are brushless, and don't produce sparks. Brushless motors are recommended when used with volatile compounds. You can use a squirrel cage arrangement, where just the fan, and NOT the motor, is in the path of fumes, and this should be just fine. I am under no obligation whatsoever to demand an "explosion proof" motor, it is not always needed. 

*DISCLAIMER: I am not an expert, nor authority, on electric motors!*

 

 MikeV wrote:

You are not talking about what I mentioned Mark. Explosion proof motors are more expensive than that.

That's because there's no need to talk about it. It is not always required, so this is a moot point, really.

 

 MikeV wrote:

True!  So why not err on the side of caution and buy a motor that is guaranteed to be explosion proof? If you are going to press the question then why not follow it?

Because, again, they're not always required for sufficient safety.

Now is there anything else you needed to vent about? (A little spray booth humor there!)

- Mark

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